48 replies to this topic

[B0oN]

Now, now, gentlemen, you cant have a fight in here, this is the WARROOM !

Okay, jokes aside.

Hitregistration (in conflux with HSR) :
A very weird bunny, this one, really .
Erratically moves hitboxes around mechmodels at seemingly random (most unfitting !!!!) times .
Seen a thousand hits do thousand times no damage, be they incoming or outgoing .
Glowing red side and centertorsos have been missed magically although the fired upon mech stood still.
A million non-hits, going wide past my mech on my screen rip off arms, open torsoes, costs your life.
Latencies on my end: 118-131 ms

Leads me to say : CB was better to shoot (feeling-wise, more direct, better controllable outcome), "lag"-lead proved to be more consistent in delivering accurate hits (paperdoll+target) on both representations of the target than what we have now.

Above conclusion is based on my experiences/gut-feeling, do the maths yourselves

Oh:
INB4 Technerds ...
DNS-Checkd, fresh set win7/64,ISP reroutes transatlanc signal for our transmitterbox now via alternate hop (ping +3ms), etc. etc.

[Solis Obscuri]

Spiders are hard to hit.

Two reasons:

• They are very agile mechs that run fast and have a great jump distance.
  
• Their hitboxes are a little screwy.

If you managed 170 damage against a Spider with AC/2s, you probably hit. You probably hit a lot. But you didn't concentrate damage very effectively, so you spread that damage all over and didn't kill it. Next time, I'd recommend trying to zoom in on the enemy 'mech and focus fire when it's in your firing arc. You may have better luck scoring a kill that way. You may also benefit from attempting to destroy one of the Spider's legs to slow down its rate of movement before trying for a kill shot.

[Latorque]

All reasoning aside; the mech which is the last survivor in pretty much every second game iiiiis... *drumroll*

NOT a Quickdraw.

Seriously; loads of matches which draw out forever; even if the winning team has three well-piloted lights left to hunt the lone survivor down... it's always a freaking spider. And i very much doubt each and every one of those is piloted by a superbly talented pilot. The spider is broken one way or the other; be it by Ping or HSR. Damage that applies to other mechs; needs to be the same for the spider. As long as this isn't the case, the spider is broken; and everyone and their sister debbie uses them thanks to the trial mechs...

[Willard Phule]

Even SSRM2s have a harder time killing Spiders than any other mech of it's class. I've seen Streakboats hit them with multiple volleys of 5+ SSRM2s (both chain and group firing) with little to no effect. The same Streakboat will leg or core a Locust or Jenner long before the Spider. Which is kind of weird, if you think about it. SSRM2s aren't supposed to miss (running behind cover notwithstanding) and are supposed to do 2.5 damage each. Spiders don't pack a lot of armor...especially the Trial Spider, since you can't modify it. They should be fairly easy to kill with streaks, but they aren't.

Just saying.

[Elder Thorn]

bring knockdowns back to game, problem solved

[WANTED]

Well I know in general as far as SRMs go they don't do {Scrap} on any light. I stopped wasting them due to hit detection issues on fast mechs. So hitting a spider with SRMs just a waste.

[Bront]

Solis Obscuri, on 30 January 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Spiders are hard to hit.

Two reasons:

• They are very agile mechs that run fast and have a great jump distance.
  
• Their hitboxes are a little screwy.

The only thing you missed is that they also are very slim, which makes leading them due to convergence a pain.

Lights excel at spreading damage, and the Spider is a master at it. I've had no problems hitting one standing still, I just rarely see them do it. (I did dual gauss one last week though)

[Hammerhai]

As a true blood Jenner pilot I can only say that at ping 300 I am often dead without knowing what even hit me. I am honestly developing a real hate of dual gauss/ac20 mechs. Of which there are a gazillion. Why? Because they work. And if they didn't work against lights I doubt ppl would take them, or make the effort, but use ML's instead. Which they don't. You cannot tell me every gamer is a genius at leading his target pin point, because I know how much ppl suck at that in real life. And yes, I CAN hit a flying coke can with a BB gun in RL.

So....

I will grant Spiders kill me just as much, as they are really, really tough opponents. But with a Spider I can fight, so I get some enjoyment out of it. With dual Gauss I just foam at the mouth and have an out of game seizure of invective, futilely spraying spittle in anger at an uncaring screen.

In fact, and this is ME blatantly and shamelessly lobbying, there should be a blanket nerf of ballistics to be on a par with lasers. As well as absolute axis or "look spring" functionality for joysticks, regardless of Loc Nar's belief this is not really possible.

I have said so in anger often I will now say calmly most of these are lobbying threads pushing the"PGI OP my favourite toy NOW cuz I enjoys that" theme. This should not be politics, this should be mech war ... (Insert mech commercial lobbying for lowering pin point damage in MWO of your choice)

[SweetJackal]

Ximius, on 30 January 2014 - 03:26 AM, said:

Sorry buddy, but everyone that has issues with hit recognition is not required to video capture every battle they are in. This thread is about unusual problems with mechs such as spiders and how it related to hit recognition. You come in here and throw this down "picture or it didnt happen" {Scrap} as if somehow we need to justify posting here.

Well here's a news flash, we dont owe you anything. These are genuine issues that we would like addressed and unless you are here to justify how hit recognition is in fact not broken then your posts are to be immediately ignored going forward.

Please do leave your condescension at the door.

Sitting here and saying "Spider's Are Broken! Fix!" isn't providing feedback. Yelling out "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when you're brought in as part of a focus group offers about the same level of usefulness.

HSR problems have been around for a while and HSR accuracy fluctuates with several factors. Ping being one of them, speed another and so on. Then you have problems with player skill and expectations of how things work vs how they actually work in game mucking up things more.

Providing pictures and video offers data, provides insight into why it is happening. Straight up player recollections of what has happened are not reliable as they can provide false information to what had actually happened and create more scrap to sort through when trying to find the cause.

Saying it's happening is offering nothing. Providing pictures and video is taking a step to helping get it solved. The symptom being complained about is damage not registering properly and there are about half a dozen things things that could cause that if something is mucked up.

Pictures and Video are two of the hallmarks for bug reporting for a -very- good reason.

[Meridian]

Ximius, on 30 January 2014 - 03:26 AM, said:

Sorry buddy, but everyone that has issues with hit recognition is not required to video capture every battle they are in. This thread is about unusual problems with mechs such as spiders and how it related to hit recognition. You come in here and throw this down "picture or it didnt happen" {Scrap} as if somehow we need to justify posting here.

Agreed. You know what happens if I alpha a Jenner running straight at me? He loses a leg or his torso gets breached with severe internal. Same for a Locust. A Raven is a bit more iffy (and I still say their hit detection is bugged). But a Spider? I won't even breach his armor.

There's a reason why Spiders (Remember? They were jokes when they first came out) are now running around in packs the way that the 3L used to.

[Solis Obscuri]

Bront, on 30 January 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

The only thing you missed is that they also are very slim, which makes leading them due to convergence a pain.

That's an interesting observation, and it probably explains why the Large Lasers in my CPLT-K2s torso are so impressively effective at destroying Spiders, but the arm lasers on my ON1-K do such a poor job.

[Bront]

Solis Obscuri, on 30 January 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

That's an interesting observation, and it probably explains why the Large Lasers in my CPLT-K2s torso are so impressively effective at destroying Spiders, but the arm lasers on my ON1-K do such a poor job.

There was an article on it a few months ago. It's also part of why it's hard to hit with Balistics, as the lead when you aim at it vs the lead when you aim ahead of it creates some uninhabitable angles.

[Grendel408]

Spiders and Light Mechs are not broken... sorry folks. I die plenty in my Lights (k/d ratio to prove it)... you know why it's easy for a Light to kill an Assault Mech or anything larger than it? Because they are smaller, faster, and rely on speed to stay alive... not armor. I run circles around Mechs in Lights because I can... not because they are broken. This has never changed since MW2 in '95... it's knowing how to play a Mech that is significantly outweighed, outgunned, and outclassed in armor in all respects to other Mechs that makes a good Light pilot the bane of your existence

[LennStar]

Airu, on 26 January 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Funny, yet the problem is not with the spider, but HSR that is most apperent in spiders. What you see on your screen is not what the server may calculate.

People with good ping kill spiders with good ping with no issues.

Even with bad ping you should be able to do damage to a spider that stands still for several seconds.

I once got in the back of a spider watching my team with an AC20.
I took my time to aim. 60m away, in the center of the back CT. Fire!
I did see a hit. I got the red indicator.
The spider did not move. Or get any damage. Same happened with 2 PPC (at more then 90m).

That also happens with other weapons. You can swipe over a spider with 6 Medium Lasers and it does not get damage.
Spider and me running straight at each other on even ground, so no lag aiming at all needed.. Spider fires LLas, I fire 6MedLas.
It well hit me, I just scraped the paint of 2 Torso parts, laser on target all the time. After the third time the CT at least got to dark orange armor.
Technically that spider should not have any front armor left. And that happens a lot.

Or firing 4 MedPulses in a trainling Jenner on the spiders back 7 times and just a bit armor damage. Sure, I did not hold on target all the time - but even 1/10 of 7x24 is more then "yellow".

Or on the receiving end - gauss hit. heard the sound. No dmg on the doll.

And so on.


BTW: Jenner is the reverse problem - your front CT gets hit from every direction, even from shots if a spider is trailing YOU. Should be physically impossible. And dont ask me about LRM in the back - more front CT hits then any other part together (at least thats the feeling - could be 50/50 ).

Edited by LennStar, 30 January 2014 - 01:46 PM.

[Airu]

THe problem in this game is that even a standing mech may not actually be located in that exact space for the server (people talked about it in many different threads) so even standing mech may not register properly. On the other note, any standing light in the middle of a fight is a bad pilot or laggs badly...

Jenner's CT gets shot from behind because the bottom part where legges are attached (*** ) is considered CT from all sides.
+ for D and K models the top rocket tubes are also part of CT

Edited by Airu, 30 January 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[Pataine]

If you are in a Spider that has 125+ ping you are almost immune to players around 50-60 ping. You can run into 8 mechs and stay alive for well over a min before Streaks bring you down. Saw this today on Caustic Valley. Medium Lasers, Small Pulse Lasers and Large Lasers do no damage to them. Only Way for Most other lights to bring them down is Streaks. At 20m with small pulse you do no damage to them but I can core an Atlas or any other Assault before I can take them out with them armed with a ER Large Laser an 4 MG's and me with 4 ML and 2 Streaks or 4 SP and 2 streaks.

[Willard Phule]

Grendel408, on 30 January 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Spiders and Light Mechs are not broken... sorry folks. I die plenty in my Lights (k/d ratio to prove it)... you know why it's easy for a Light to kill an Assault Mech or anything larger than it? Because they are smaller, faster, and rely on speed to stay alive... not armor. I run circles around Mechs in Lights because I can... not because they are broken. This has never changed since MW2 in '95... it's knowing how to play a Mech that is significantly outweighed, outgunned, and outclassed in armor in all respects to other Mechs that makes a good Light pilot the bane of your existence

Even though I agree with you to a point and have been playing since MW2 myself, it still doesn't explain the following:

An extremely intelligent 'New Player' that needs to grind up cbills is entering a match in a Trial Mech, then disconnecting as soon as the match starts (note how I applaud this strategy...it happens all the time). This time, he did it with the Spider.

So, his AFK/Disconnected Spider is just standing still in spawn. I walk up to it, stopping about 50m away from it. I zoom in so closely I can see the bolts on it's ankles. Then I drill away with 4...count 'em 4...ER Large Lasers.

According to Mechlab, The ER Large Laser does 9 points of damage per hit. Maximized leg armor on a Spider is 28. So, I should be going internal after the first volley. Keep in mind this doesn't take into account that the Spider in question is a Trial Mech, so doofus couldn't modify the mech at all.

So...tell me...if it's not hitbox issues, why is it that I have to drill that same leg, from 50m away, THREE TIMES WITH FOUR ER LARGE LASERS? That's a total of 108 points of damage to a location that should only have 28 points of armor. Did they give it 80 points of internal structure?

No sir, I disagree that there is no hitbox issue. Even standing still, it's ridiculously hard to kill them.

[Reefwalker]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2014 - 02:27 AM, said:

It is indeed a HSR issue but the point of HSR was to make it 'you hit it on your screen then you hit it'. It was supposed to minimize ping-related issues. Prior to HSR I could at least tell after a few shots just how much do I need to lead each mech now its just random. Now you hit it and your crosshair says you hit it but it registers no damage whatsoever.



Tell us smart guy what are we supposed to learn. It stands still 80m in front of you. You slowly and carefully line up your crosshair right on the middle of its CT and push an 'alpha' button ... only to see nothing happens. Care to tell me what am I to learn from this?

Well first don't alpha. Convergence will make most of that miss! sustained chain fire at the hip area, or streaks, locked LRMs if running to or from you, but don't waste your missiles on across. Expect most of it to miss even if you see it hit. because with spiders Ping matters. So in a nut shell, take a fast mech and get the spider in a stern chase , so that he is running in your beaten zone. If you cant pull that off its going to take a wile.

But that is his trade off, the spider is hard to kill. It is tiny yet well armored for its weight class, but has almost no weapons. The spider might need some work, but there much more important things to be fixed first.

Many times the spider is last man standing, not because he is indestructible, but because no one cares till he is in the way of a win.

Edited by Reefwalker, 01 February 2014 - 02:04 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Reefwalker, on 01 February 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

Well first don't alpha. Convergence will make most of that miss!

And just exactly how convergence will make ACs / Lasers / ERPPCs miss at 80m range?

Reefwalker, on 01 February 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

sustained chain fire at the hip area, or streaks, locked LRMs if running to or from you, but don't waste your missiles on across. Expect most of it to miss even if you see it hit.

I don't use guided missiles.

Reefwalker, on 01 February 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

because with spiders Ping matters. So in a nut shell, take a fast mech and get the spider in a stern chase , so that he is running in your beaten zone. If you cant pull that off its going to take a wile.

Missing the point again. Spider is STANDING STILL. If it stands still ping is irrelevant. Either HSR is so fubar it doesn't work even with stationary targets or Spiders are broken. 45 pinpoint damage (Gauss + 3ERPPCs) is enough to destroy any location on a light mech in one shot. Yet I've seen Spiders who were in a shut down take that shot from ~100m and barely register any damage. Jenners / Locusts / Ravens do take appropriate damage in similar situations.

Reefwalker, on 01 February 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

But that is his trade off, the spider is hard to kill. It is tiny yet well armored for its weight class, but has almost no weapons. The spider might need some work, but there much more important things to be fixed first.

Jenner / Locust in same situations do not behave same way, they take damage. There might be other more important issues but it doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge the issue when one exists.

[sneeking]

yea because one large laser and four dakkas with jj's inside the range of convergence is almost no weapons lol

I know why they hate us...

its not broken but when this happens there is nothing you can do if none of your fellow monkeys will pick your fleas off....

its happened to me enough times to know and iv done it enough times to know

Edited by sneeking, 01 February 2014 - 03:23 AM.