540 replies to this topic

[Lubalin]

When every round shows one team completely mopping the floor, something is wrong.

Answers about how ELO average really is equal in stomps, or how tonnage is going to be balanced at some vague point in the future aren't enough.

People are playing this game right now.

And it's broken.

We don't need new mechs, maps, or UI. Get the parts you've already built in working condition before you add new features. That's software dev 101. Stop designing new mechs and put your entire team to work on fixing the issues, or you'll keep losing customers.

There is something extremely fun about this game.

But I throw up my hands and quit every couple of months. I have no confidence at all in the people making this game. I know it's a labor of love. But maybe you guys need to bring in some outside help. Doesn't feel like you know how to fix this.

Why does this always happen to the best games? Sad.

Lub

[Nick Makiaveli]

Lubalin, on 26 January 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

When every round shows one team completely mopping the floor, something is wrong.

Answers about how ELO average really is equal in stomps, or how tonnage is going to be balanced at some vague point in the future aren't enough.

People are playing this game right now.

And it's broken.

We don't need new mechs, maps, or UI. Get the parts you've already built in working condition before you add new features. That's software dev 101. Stop designing new mechs and put your entire team to work on fixing the issues, or you'll keep losing customers.

There is something extremely fun about this game.

But I throw up my hands and quit every couple of months. I have no confidence at all in the people making this game. I know it's a labor of love. But maybe you guys need to bring in some outside help. Doesn't feel like you know how to fix this.

Why does this always happen to the best games? Sad.

Lub

Seriously? First off, you are wrong. I was in some 10-12 games last night.

Second, once a team gets a numerical advantage, it's almost certainly going to steamroll from there. I mean if you are outnumbered 2-1 what do you expect? So the score may start out 1-2 but if it hits 7-3 you can pretty well bet it will end in something like 12-4.

As to what the dev team should be working on etc, you don't work in IT I take it? If you did, you would know that artists aren't going to be much help in "fixing" most problems. So they have people working in their areas.

Also, if you were even remotely up to date on the situation, you would know that for about a year now many things have been held up by UI 2.0 since it's going to be a major change in how the game presents stuff to us as well as many changes behind the scenes.

Why? Because most players think that because they can install a game they are experts on game development, and that having played "lots of games" they are experts on how to design and balance them. They then hit the forums, generate multiple accounts to spam with etc. Add in chickenshit devs who bow to every whim and you get a game no one will play even though it's exactly what they want.

I don't always like or agree with what these guys have done, but at least they don't give in to every whim and passing fancy that comes up on the forums.

[anonymous161]

I feel mostly the same way you do op, with faith in these devs and how I typically have to uninstall to get it off my screen to temp me to play it every few months but I dont typically get stomped that often my kdr shows that otherwise I wouldn't play at all if I was bad at the game.

Nick you are being a bit harsh dont you think?

[Mystere]

The exaggerations on the forums are astounding.

[Rebas Kradd]

Mystere, on 26 January 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

The exaggerations on the forums are astounding.

There is still a kernel of truth to them. I'm just not sure what can be done about it at this point.

[Troggy]

Define "stomp"...

In my mind, a 12 minute game of stalking, sniping and jockeying - which ends up 12-2 - is not a stomp. It was probably a pretty even match, in which one team managed to obtain a significant positional advantage from which the other team could not recover.

What you characterize as "Close" games often occur when neither team can gain a positional advantage so one team OR when both teams play badly, and it invariably ends up either as 1) an ugly brawl (or mid-range gunfight) in which nobody has any idea who will win or 2) individual pockets of mechs being picked off by a superior small force until there are only a few people left on each side.

It is ridiculous to think that every game that has a wide score line is automatically a "stomp". Furthermore, in my experience, most real stomps are the result of what I would characterize as "surprise communication" where a team plays at a level of ordination which is unexpected. This is something to praise, when you see it, regardless of the team it occurred on! We all have good matches sometimes.

There is absolutely no metric in which PGI could follow such that the game is 11-12 every time and your team wins 50.00000% of the time. It's impossible. Look at professional football or hockey, where all the teams are pretty close in skill. With draft systems, and salary caps, and revenue sharing, shouldn't every game be within 1 or 2 points. Look at the Superbowl, one of the most "even" or "fair" sporting events in the world. Some are really close. Others not so much. 1990 (SBXXIV) was 55-10, hahaha. Where there is a human factor, there will be variability. That's life.

But, even if it was possible, it would be undesirable, as it would be boring, in just another way.
--
Troggy

[YueFei]

Troggy, on 26 January 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

Define "stomp"...

In my mind, a 12 minute game of stalking, sniping and jockeying - which ends up 12-2 - is not a stomp. It was probably a pretty even match, in which one team managed to obtain a significant positional advantage from which the other team could not recover.

What you characterize as "Close" games often occur when neither team can gain a positional advantage so one team OR when both teams play badly, and it invariably ends up either as 1) an ugly brawl (or mid-range gunfight) in which nobody has any idea who will win or 2) individual pockets of mechs being picked off by a superior small force until there are only a few people left on each side.

Yeah I've seen this happen. Things seem to be pretty even, then you decide to move laterally to flank... except that your entire team decides to try to flank, and you end up all trapped in some pocket of the map getting enveloped by the other team. It happens because in PUG matches most people aren't communicating with each other, so everyone on the team thinks other teammates are gonna maintain the same base of fire so they can go flank. It's not really any individual player's fault.

To continue with your sports analogy, it's the same as when two offensive linemen get confused and both block the same pass rusher, letting another defender free to sack the QB. And that's confusion between 2 guys who play on the same team professionally and practice together all the time. Imagine how disorganized 12 people can get when they've never played or practiced together before, and can't easily communicate in mid-match.

Edited by YueFei, 26 January 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Darth Bane001, on 26 January 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Nick you are being a bit harsh dont you think?

Maybe. If he responds with a mature and intelligent response, I have been known to apologize. However if he continues to whine and ignore reality, then I will feel I was spot on.

[East Indy]

It's Sunday.

PGI can't fix people playing thoughtlessly.

[MischiefSC]

Weight limits should help, for one thing.

Theoretically, after UI 2.0, some more effective matchmaking can be applied. Accounting for how well someone performs with a given mech rather than roughly for a weight class, matching to a range with more tolerance for high Elo outliers and not sandbagging teams for having a ringer on them.... a few things.

There are not nothing but stomps though. I see a few but as someone who actually tracks their matches I can say they're about 1 in 5 matches. Slightly over 20%, over the last ~200.

A significant thing lately has been all the Phoenix Pack mechs. They were largely terrible. The Shawk isn't bad but you had team half full of Battlemasters and Thunderbolts. That's literally exactly the same as having your team half full of Awesomes and Dragons. Then you've got the other team playing competitive chassis like Highlanders, Victors, Jags and Stalkers.

Still though I feel your frustration. While I think you're exaggerating or taking a brief anecdotal slice of games and saying it's 'ALL THE TIME', you're not happy with the matchmaking lately.

Fair enough. All we can do is wait for UI 2.0 and hope that it's as magical as people hope.

[Mystere]

East Indy, on 26 January 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

It's Sunday.

PGI can't fix people playing thoughtlessly.

PGI can't and shouldn't fix people, period.

[wwiiogre]

Most games are stomps, because PGI's matchmaker is designed that way. It is and never was designed to make fun, challenging even matches. It does not take tonnage, equipment or experience in to account. It merely uses win/loss to figure out if it will screw you over during the next drop. If your win/loss is to high then it will screw you and place you in a match where you are out tonned, out gunned, and out 4man 'd.

Now also remember the current elo does not care about 4mans, so it will place 3 4man teams on one side and none on the other. It will also place 3 4man teams on one side and 3-8 new players on the other. Because new players have a perfect elo and are right in the middle so they will face teams lopsided against them. The same is true for new players using trial mechs. Elo in the middle of the bell curve. Therefore they are neutral they can be put in any game.

So not every game is a stomp. But at this point for most of us that solo drop it is above 75%. And I have found that unless I drop a heavy or assault with a cheese alpha build or dps build then I too will get stomped or stomp others 75% of the time. In my 30+ drops since last night I have only been in two games that were close. With only 3 v 2 at the end. The rest have been with 8+ alive on oneside and 1 on the other.

I just had a drop with 10 players on our side, 4 of which were brand new most of our team in lights and mediums, we had one heavy and one assault. We faced 3 4mans, they had one light, one medium and the rest hvy/assault with more assaults than heavies all of which were cheese dps builds. We got rolled and stomped. I did 400 damage and we did not kill a single mech. And that was the worst but there were more than 10 games almost as bad today and last night.

So excuse me if I don't care that you drop with your 3 buddies in assaults and then roflstomp solo pug players and newbies because PGI's sharty matchmaker allows it.

Chris

[wwiiogre]

Mischief I track my matches so its not anecdotal or exaggerated. It is a terrible matchmaker. I can change my win/loss the moment I start dropping in 4mans. It dramatically increases. In 4mans I can usually get upto a 3/1 or 4/1 win/loss. As a pug unless I drop assaults and heavies it is impossible to maintain a 1/1 win/loss at the moment. Especially not after skirmish was introduced. When so many of the knuckledragging epeen players are trying to roll up their stats and dropping in 4man teams of Stalker, Highlander, Highlander, DDC Atlas or some variation of the above and then sync dropping their 4mans.

Played in a match last week where our 4man was teamed with 2 other 4mans, facing 3 other 4mans. and those 5 4mans in the drop were all sync dropping trying not to face each other but to roll pugs. All were in assault/heavy lances all were ppc/gauss/uac5 builds with a few mass LRM builds for giggles.

Matchmaker is broken, or perhaps its working exactly as ordered since its stated goal is to force peoples win/loss to 1/1.

But because it does that, it makes for some seriously lopsided games.

Chris

[Mystere]

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Most games are stomps, because PGI's matchmaker is designed that way. It is and never was designed to make fun, challenging even matches.

I must be in Elo heaven then because it's been a very fun weekend so far.

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

So not every game is a stomp. But at this point for most of us that solo drop it is above 75%.

As someone who has been playing exclusively solo since the very beginning, I am disputing your 75% figure.

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

I can change my win/loss the moment I start dropping in 4mans. It dramatically increases ...

As a pug unless I drop assaults and heavies it is impossible to maintain a 1/1 win/loss at the moment ...

So going into 4-mans is a crutch that you need. And the same holds for running heavies and assaults. We got it.

Edited by Mystere, 26 January 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Most games are stomps, because PGI's matchmaker is designed that way. It is and never was designed to make fun, challenging even matches. It does not take tonnage, equipment or experience in to account. It merely uses win/loss to figure out if it will screw you over during the next drop. If your win/loss is to high then it will screw you and place you in a match where you are out tonned, out gunned, and out 4man 'd.

Now also remember the current elo does not care about 4mans, so it will place 3 4man teams on one side and none on the other. It will also place 3 4man teams on one side and 3-8 new players on the other. Because new players have a perfect elo and are right in the middle so they will face teams lopsided against them. The same is true for new players using trial mechs. Elo in the middle of the bell curve. Therefore they are neutral they can be put in any game.

So not every game is a stomp. But at this point for most of us that solo drop it is above 75%. And I have found that unless I drop a heavy or assault with a cheese alpha build or dps build then I too will get stomped or stomp others 75% of the time. In my 30+ drops since last night I have only been in two games that were close. With only 3 v 2 at the end. The rest have been with 8+ alive on oneside and 1 on the other.

I just had a drop with 10 players on our side, 4 of which were brand new most of our team in lights and mediums, we had one heavy and one assault. We faced 3 4mans, they had one light, one medium and the rest hvy/assault with more assaults than heavies all of which were cheese dps builds. We got rolled and stomped. I did 400 damage and we did not kill a single mech. And that was the worst but there were more than 10 games almost as bad today and last night.

So excuse me if I don't care that you drop with your 3 buddies in assaults and then roflstomp solo pug players and newbies because PGI's sharty matchmaker allows it.

Chris

Proof or are you just talking out of your ***?

Show me where it says that it is trying to match you up for a loss.

Trial mechs? If you drop in a trial mech you keep the same Elo you've always had for that class.

So 75% of solo players lose huh? That's utter ********. Unless one side has 3 4 man pre-mades, then there will be solo's on both sides, thus some win and some lose. Again, proof?

You faced 3 4 mans huh? First, if true, that's ONE game. I've played over 1500 matches. Second, proof they were 4 mans?

Lastly, what if we drop in Lights and wolfpack you? Is that ok? What about BoomJagers? (though technically it was only 3, our 4th had a Hunchie with one AC/20).

[Nick Makiaveli]

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Mischief I track my matches so its not anecdotal or exaggerated. It is a terrible matchmaker. I can change my win/loss the moment I start dropping in 4mans. It dramatically increases. In 4mans I can usually get upto a 3/1 or 4/1 win/loss. As a pug unless I drop assaults and heavies it is impossible to maintain a 1/1 win/loss at the moment. Especially not after skirmish was introduced. When so many of the knuckledragging epeen players are trying to roll up their stats and dropping in 4man teams of Stalker, Highlander, Highlander, DDC Atlas or some variation of the above and then sync dropping their 4mans.

1. You need to read the definition of "anecdotal". Also research "sample size".

2. Ummm it's called team work? I mean duh?

3. Duh. It's called Skirmish and the only problem is you can't opt out of it and still drop Any.

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Played in a match last week where our 4man was teamed with 2 other 4mans, facing 3 other 4mans. and those 5 4mans in the drop were all sync dropping trying not to face each other but to roll pugs. All were in assault/heavy lances all were ppc/gauss/uac5 builds with a few mass LRM builds for giggles.

And you know this how? Simply because they were using common builds? They said so? Are you aware that Marik for example hosts a weekly event where anyone can join and they all sync drop for fun?

BTW, it isn't easy to sync drop. Tried it lots of times, and it almost always fails. When it succeeds, it's about 50/50 that they will be on our side vs the enemy team.

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Matchmaker is broken, or perhaps its working exactly as ordered since its stated goal is to force peoples win/loss to 1/1.

But because it does that, it makes for some seriously lopsided games.

Chris

The stated goal is to have balanced matches, which is defined as a 50/50 W/L ratio. I think you are reading into this, If not, then provide proof beyond your own stories and feelings.

[wwiiogre]

You really are not reading what I said. 75% of games are ending lopsided. Meaning not coming down to 1v1 or 2v3 near the end. but 8v2, 10v1.

In a game usually one side loses. So every game has 50% of its players lose. I do a lot of solo dropping. or 2man dropping, but I don't put those numbers in my comments or I would qualify them. In the 2man games I dropped last night and today we were about 50% win/loss. but we dropped assaults only. When we switched to light/mediums we lost about 66%.

The only reason I started posting on this topic again, was that Paul keeps updating ELO in the command chair section and says all is well things are working as expected.

I say to that, horseshart unless you like roflstomps and mismatches. I don't need to post finish screens here. You can look on the forum and find many that have between 300-450 ton mismatches and if you play enough you can look at those screen shots and see that there are 4mans on oneside and not the other in addition to the tonnage mismatch.

No some of you are claiming that tonnage is used in the elo equation and I call ******** on that. Your win/loss elo is based on your mech class. But what you drop is not matched on the other team. Merely your elo score. Meaning, if you have a high elo score in your commando, you can and will be matched up against an Atlas with the same elo score. And the proof is in all the post match screen shots showing just that.

Chris

[Nightcrept]

Honestly I think the matchmaker does it on purpose sometimes.

If i'm actually trying to play well instead of running for fun builds I am actually fairly good at this game and I start to rack up the wins and my kdr rate.

Suddenly thought I will go through a series of very lopsided games. I can see when this is getting ready to happen because the other team will be set very quickly and our team will start to trickle in one player at a time. And on the few occasions when we manage to win those games the matchmaker has launched 11-12 man games at me right after.

I could be very wrong but it seems to want to make you lose sometimes.

[Quick n Fast]

wat I would like to know is... wat would happen if u got ur "perfect game"... were pugs r with pugs, n grps r with grp, equal amount of lights, meds, Hvys & Assaults, 95% even tonnage drops n everyone of equal ELO on each team... and you still got 12-0 rolfstomp'd... then wat would you blame?

[Sandpit]

No they don't.
OP title is wrong. How do I know? Well because every game I play isn't a stomp. Stuff like that title is what gets ideas and such dismissed. Not all games are stomps. it's simply untrue.

I've noticed much closer games since MM tweaks lately. That must mean all games are close solid games! (or that could jsut be my individual perception based on my small sliver of the entire population, imagine that)

Kahnawake MechMaster Prime, on 26 January 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

then wat would you blame?

Then it becomes voip, weapon balance, PGI, arty, ecm, etc. the list goes on and on and on. They'll find something to blame. The easiest thing is just not participate in threads like this anymore. There's tons of existing threads that discuss this. There's also plenty of reasons why the savior that is pugs only queues won't really work. just stop feeding them.