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The Alpha Strike & Boating: Two sides of the same coin.


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Poll: The Alpha Strike & Boating: Two sides of the same coin. (507 member(s) have cast votes)

Which solution do you think BEST addresses the "boating" issue?

  1. Limit the number of a specific weapon that can be fitted on a mech. (example: maximum of 3 or 4 of each... maybe apply this only to "larger" weapons) (15 votes [2.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.96%

  2. Increase the potency of individual weapons, but make it harder to fit as many of them. Most mech designs are built around only 1-3 primary weapons, with secondary weapons fitted in as necessary. 7 large lasers on one mech is rediculous. (13 votes [2.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.56%

  3. Minimize customization of variants to "smaller" weapons/components. "Big" weapons cannot be removed/changed. Allow for multiple variants (naturally). (27 votes [5.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.33%

  4. No customization. Players have to choose from canon designs or dev "balanced" canon designs. (52 votes [10.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.26%

  5. ONLY change the aiming system: weapons are no longer aimed at a single point (also, have kickback). Players should be able to aim with *some* degree of success, but there should be some weapon spread. (prevents "coring" in one volley). (76 votes [14.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.99%

  6. Lower Alpha Strike usage!: it should be rare and rather risky! Should take more of a toll on the mech (that much heat doesn't dissipate immediately!). More weapons fired at once means greater chance of "something" going wrong. (151 votes [29.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.78%

  7. This is an issue? Whatever! I see no problem with boating and current Alpha Strike mechanics! (137 votes [27.02%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.02%

  8. An Alpha Strike can only be performed every (x) seconds/minutes (possibly give players a counter). Should still not be a "common" thing (whatever that means). (10 votes [1.97%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.97%

  9. Simplest solution of all!: Remove the Alpha Strike option altogether. Weapons can still be grouped, but cycle fire individually! (maybe a *very slight* delay between one and the next to make it less easy for all to hit the same location) (26 votes [5.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.13%

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#141 NoMovingParts

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 04:58 PM

View PostYeach, on 18 November 2011 - 07:34 PM, said:

You could not alpha-fire 4 ERPPCs or 6 ERLL in MW3.

You sure could in an Anni. 4xErppc and every other space filled with HS or DoubleHS - On Tranquil, it worked like this: Alpha/restart/alpha/restart/alpha/dead Brandon Corbitt, dead Daisy, whatever.
.
(but then again, MW3 had targeting computers, CASE, JJ on anything, and a moving reticle I STILL miss)

#142 pizza koopa

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 05:05 PM

My proposal would be something in another direction.

While having a "general" heat level, also add individual heat for each weapon. It never made sense how firing your lasers also heats up your missiles. I am not sure if it was born out of just simplification or its how it works in the canon, but having one shared heat for all weapons does not make sense.

It would be the perfect way to balance boating weapons. If you just stack 6 large lasers on your mech, you would find that repeated firing would individually melt all of your lasers (while adding to your overall heat). This would make Mechs that are focused on energy weapons viable, while making true boating impractical. Sure you could bring 4 large lasers to the fray, but you would need to bring some smaller separate lasers to use while your big ones cool off to usable levels. It basically would make "big" weapons have less of a universal purpose and force them into the role of "the big punch" or longer range weapons. This would make alpha striking viable without making it overpowered.

As far as ballistics, it would just need some careful balancing of ammo. Ideally you would want to encourage players to MIX weapon types on a mech, use your ballistics while your lasers cool off.
Or if it was a more ballistics focused mech, energy weapons would serve the purpose of saving ammo instead of burning it all off quickly. Another way to counter boating of ballistics is to make them do variable damage at range. It would makes sense that and ultra ac 10 does not have the same power at its maximum range as opposed to 10 yards away. Thus promoting smarter ammo conservation and limiting the effectiveness of just bringing 6 of the same guns with ammo to a fight.
So for example under this system if someone would boat clanultra ac2s on a Daishi, the damage at long range would be equivalent to little bee stings bouncing off your armor. At closer range, they would be better, but in which case other weapons become more attractive. A group of u ac2s could still serve as a good mid range weapon, just not a "everything weapon".

LRMs should be simple to balance. They should have ridiculous reload times and be very effective at long range, but other weapons are better up close. SRMs should also take a long time to load but have the inverse of providing a close range punch that cannot be obviously used at longer ranges. (Its why you dont see many srm boats, their range sucks).

The main issue behind boating (in past games) is that people stack similar weapons on their mech that can be used at very long/short ranges. These weapons (large lasers, gauss's, ppcs, LRMs) have too much versatility and are too good in a close range matchup compared to other smaller weapons. Its a matter of DPS, smaller more numerous weapons should have usefulness at short range by having more DPS than the big guns. The big guns are great for that big punch, but the problem with them is that they are good everywhere regardless.

Poptarting I think is a viable strategy that uses terrain to its fullest potential. It requires the other team to respond strategically and flank the enemy. preferably mechs that are set up to poptart are set up ONLY to poptart. In any other role their damage-per-second should be really low and undesirable in a fire fight. If one was to nerf poptarting (which is probably a good idea). I would make weapons such as PPC's and Gauss's have a 1 second delay before actually firing. Would make sense as if they had to "charge up" before firing. This would mean that the "poptarter" would have to expose himself much longer (or have excellent timing) to get effective shots off. Seeing as the Gauss/PPCs are the main offenders of poptarting it would makes sense to do this.

Even with these changes, I still think the big guns would be incredibly viable and important for success. Its just that they should have a specified role, and not something you can throw 6+ of on your mech with 25 heat sinks to do well in ANY engagement. There are reasons why real world commando teams do not use 50cal machine guns in all situations. Make smaller weapons more versatile, make bigger ones more situational. You won't need to worry much about people boating smaller, shortrange weapons because well... they will be out of range of big guns. This should also help making smaller mechs more viable and dangerous.

Alpha striking has its place, but boating is its evil twin brother.

Edited by pizza koopa, 19 November 2011 - 11:05 PM.


#143 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 03:27 AM

We don't yet know what levels of customisation and gameplay are going to be in. The forum seems to be split between those who want to be able to min/max (basically create a new mech) and 1 shot kill at max range while never missing. To those who want more limited customisation and longer more tactical combat.. That said - if you walk round a building corner and get an AC20 in the face your still going to be dead :)

#144 zudukai

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:53 AM

maybe another factor to add to the 'lab is power consumption, with total and limb restraints. with a large group of lasers would delay another strike for x milliseconds or whatever, because of lack of power.

#145 Black Sunder

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 05:57 AM

The way people talk here you'd think every battlefield is flat and you can always see everyone across the field and the field is 300 meters by 300 meters.

#146 Miles Tails Prower

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:44 PM

Terrain is going to limit boating, as should weaponry hard points.

PG already said that the battlefields are going to be varied, it'll prevent 1 type of load out from being highly effective from every angle of every position.

#147 Riptor

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:25 PM

Quote

Terrain is going to limit boating,


Not really.. it will keep jumpsnipers from happen.. thought the 1st person view allready hinders jumpsnipers.

No terrain is gonna keep me from making a ML boat since they are close range anyways... the focus will only shift from long range sniper boats to close range boats

#148 Melissia

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 05:14 PM

Wait, you mean people will... *gasp*... choose weapons to best suit the terrain?

HOW DARE THEY!

#149 wanderer

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 09:09 AM

View PostSeraphimMythril, on 20 November 2011 - 04:48 AM, said:

Hmm, shame that they can't (or can they?) build in mechanisms in addition to heat (such as jamming for ballistic weapons, and I don't know what for missiles? Misfires?), and/or catastrophic failure (such as battlemech self-destruction) if Alpha Strikes are overused.
For instance:
Say Mech 1 excecuted an Alpha Strike against Mech 2. If Mech 1 attempts another one (within a certain amount of time), it gives a certain % chance of failures of weapons systems...with the chance of catastrophic failures, and if the mech keeps using Alpha Strikes, will eventually compound to 100% failure/catastrophic failure, at which something goes wrong and the mech simply ceases to function (counting as a "destroyed" mech for that side in the battle, and perhaps being reduced to scrap...complete with self-destruction if the mech fails badly enough.)


These exist in the TT game, courtesy of the extended heat scale rules and coolant system damage- which frankly, would do wonders towards reducing the alpha-strike stuff to reasonable levels. Especially if you have to pay for frying your own systems because you pushed ALL the fire buttons melting that opponent down- and potentially got your 'Mech totaled in the process.

A few seconds shutdown after jump-sniping someone is nothing. Finding out you just had pilot damage, melted some of your engine, and you're now cooling at only 85% max to boot because you thought firing 6 ER LL's without enough sinks was great is something else altogether.

#150 Havoc2

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 09:57 AM

View PostMelissia, on 20 November 2011 - 05:14 PM, said:

Wait, you mean people will... *gasp*... choose weapons to best suit the terrain?

HOW DARE THEY!


Yeah I don't believe it either.


Next thing we know, the devs will expect us to use terrain and obstructions as a method of AVOIDING weapons fire and closing gaps.


***'s next?

#151 Gaius Cavadus

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:18 PM

You could add a variable to the engine and call it power "output" or some such; basically the maximum amount of kilowatts the engine can supply at any given time.

Then give each weapon a "power drain" statistic. If the weapon group you're trying to fire consumes more power than the engine is rated to output then some of the weapons will fail to fire.

Alternatively this could be 100% solved by a revised hardpoint system.

Edit: Weren't there some MaxTech rules which already implemented something like power output/consumption deal anyways? Could've sworn there were been it's well over a decade since I played TT.

Edited by Cavadus, 21 November 2011 - 01:26 PM.


#152 Mourning Shadows

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 10:31 PM

I like the way it was done in mw2 on the pc, even with clan sinks in every nook and crany of the mech an alphastrike will still at the very least, prompt for sutdown. You had the option to hit the override button but you risk meltdown, or a lengthly forced shutdown with full reboot.
Increasing the heat of some weapons, and creating a thermodynamic heat distribution system to moddel the function of the active heatsinks could solve what some see as a problem, by reduceing the refire rate to heat vs sink rate on any given zone that can be heated or cooled. Another aspect of this is that you could have locations that are limited in the number or type of heatsinks tha can be employed. As an exaple you probly would not see active sinks hanging off the barrel of a ppc.

#153 Tannhauser Gate

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 10:56 PM

imo,

1. Alpha energy boats (as are any boats) should be devastating and equally rare.
2. Heat should continue to mulitply depending on number and type of energy weapon but rebalanced for the new game.
3. Recharge time should increase depending on number and type of energy weapons currently recharging all at once thus making boats wait longer to recharge allowing mixed load outs and TROs to regain their rightful place as the most capable mechs.
4. all that said, I want the game to be well balanced in combat, TRO focused (adjusted where needed for game balance), and BT immersive without imbalances such as 24/7 assault domination, abused candy store mechlab, and boating that makes TROs a joke.

#154 EDMW CSN

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:02 PM

For energy boating.

1) Make heatsinks capable of being getting critical damage like MW2 as a start.
2) Remove coolant flushing.

3) Repeated heat induced shutdowns will actually damage your heatsinks, thus making start ups progressively longer each time you go shutdown.

For example if u shutdown due to red heat within XX minutes, the next heat induced shutdown should start to cause damage to your heatsinks, so they will work at reduced rates. Thus taking longer to start up again.

4) After too many shutdowns from heat, critical reactor failure and your mech simply won't start and thus free salvage for the other side :lol:

This should limit pop tarting and encourage inferno missiles and flamer usage :)


For ballistic and missile boats.
1) Allow internal ammo explosions.
2) Shoot the ammo bins.
3) Abuse flamer and inferno missiles to raise heat and detonate the ammo.
4) Or at least force em to jettison their ammo.

Fin.


As for those who worry about inferno or flamer abuse. Oh please, that guy using an all flamer with inferno missile setup is probably running hotter than you !! Not only that, inferno missiles are dumb (not homing like regular missiles) and if they explode, that guy using it gets normal damage AND heat spikes. That alone can probably kill his reactor and mech together.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 21 November 2011 - 11:06 PM.


#155 Psydotek

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:16 PM

I think they really need to bring the heat effects from the tabletop rules. If you alpha strike and max out your heat sinks AND push heat levels to a certain threshold above your heat capacity, your 'mech shuts down. Period. Throw in the firing cone mechanic so you can't pinpoint all weapons on a single spot and you have alpha strikes as a last ditch desperation attack (provided that you've loaded up on enough weapons to create such a heat spike). You miss that alpha strike (or the alpha strike fails to score the kill you were looking for) and you become a sitting duck for everyone to pounce on.

Other than that, risk of ammo explosions should be a definite concern at certain heat levels (which makes CASE all that more important), loss of precision aiming (either by widening the firing cone or making the reticule jump all over the place or static on your HUD to impair vision), and reduced movement speed until heat has been properly dissipated should also be implemented to make alpha strikes that much more risky.

(sorry, i've got my rulebook out right now and i think it's finally time that more tabletop game mechanics should be able to be implemented since computers are much more powerful these days) :lol:

Edited by Psydotek, 21 November 2011 - 11:17 PM.


#156 Kargush

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 09:59 AM

If boating is wrong, I do not want to be right.

#157 MaddMaxx

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 10:45 AM

As to the Laser Boat and power consumption thought, how about they just make it so each Laser has to be recharged individually. In the MW4 scenario if you fired one at a time you could recycle them almost endlessly as they each recharged separately but if fired more than 1 that # would all recharge at the same time. A Boat would Alpha and be back up fully charged only as long as it took 1 Laser (all same type of course)

If each laser after the first had to Wait for another to recharge then firing an Alpha of 6 would take 5X longer to get back to the Alpha ready state again. (plus we would still torture the Alpha'ing Frak with withering HEAT) ;)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 November 2011 - 10:45 AM.


#158 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:03 AM

View PostMaddMaxx, on 24 November 2011 - 10:45 AM, said:

As to the Laser Boat and power consumption thought, how about they just make it so each Laser has to be recharged individually. In the MW4 scenario if you fired one at a time you could recycle them almost endlessly as they each recharged separately but if fired more than 1 that # would all recharge at the same time. A Boat would Alpha and be back up fully charged only as long as it took 1 Laser (all same type of course)

If each laser after the first had to Wait for another to recharge then firing an Alpha of 6 would take 5X longer to get back to the Alpha ready state again. (plus we would still torture the Alpha'ing Frak with withering HEAT) ;)

With that and making a laser do it's damage over time it would pretty much take away the absolute precision alpha. For ballistics, their lesser accuracy and danger of ammo explosions would do it. Same for missiles, especially if LRM's would hit scattered over a mech , not concentrated, especially if they can be taken out by moving into cover between the time they're fired and impact.SRM's are dumbfire and hopefully can be avoided unless you're really close. Seems a good starting point.

#159 Oderint dum Metuant

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:25 PM

View PostNik Van Rhijn, on 24 November 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

With that and making a laser do it's damage over time it would pretty much take away the absolute precision alpha. For ballistics, their lesser accuracy and danger of ammo explosions would do it. Same for missiles, especially if LRM's would hit scattered over a mech , not concentrated, especially if they can be taken out by moving into cover between the time they're fired and impact.SRM's are dumbfire and hopefully can be avoided unless you're really close. Seems a good starting point.


Pulse lasers are DoT or could be if implemented ala MW3 and in the books, standard lasers are not.

#160 Bloody

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 02:42 PM

Alpha Strike was not an option in the Battletech TT games. Damage was randomized and targeting was purposefully turned down to make the game about Mechs slugging it out. Sure certain weapon and piloting combos were better than others but Alpha strike was not a huge deal as Heat was a huge factor in TT games. ( add in Double movement + less than optimal Gunnery skill and the chances to hit were low )

now if you all want a mech assault MW type game where pin point targeting was accepted then expect the game to be like that, ALA Counter Strike Source where the majority of engagements consist of Headshot kill/ Non HeadShot kill.





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