111 replies to this topic

[DI3T3R]

@CapperDeluxe:
That actually sounds good: Tweaking armour to offset small weight-differences in the loadout.

Switching the engine rating wouldn't add much possibilities: You would have to have some spare Clan-XL-reactors to switch back and forth and I bet they are way more expensive than IS-reactors.

- Fixed reactor, fixed structure, fixed armour-type.
- Customizable amount of armour, customizable hardpoints.
- Once you reach Master, you can customize everything.

[Khobai]

I like how PGI is implementing omnimechs

What I dont like is how PGI has implemented IS mechs and made them more customizable than omnis.

[FupDup]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

tl;dr You can absolutely modify battlemechs, and you can modify omnimechs in the same way, but omnimechs rely on modularity and modifying one removes their modularity, turning them into battlemechs.

In MWO, that would actually be considered an upgrade in most cases, and I personally would gladly pay good spacebucks to "De-Omnitize" any one of the Clan mechs (particular dat Kit Fox, such sexy concept art). The ability to swap around hardpoint pods might definitely sound fun on paper, but in practical combat it won't actually win you battles. You win battles by taking a specific, powerful loadout (cookie cutter), rather than just experimenting with weird and exotic combinations.

Imagine, for instance, building a Timber Wolf that only used a 300-350 rated engine instead of XL375. It would be able to pack an insane level of firepower (the XL375 eats up a LOT of tonnage) while still easily keeping pace with other heavies in the game. A Summoner would max out its armor in most locations and remove 3-4 of the base config's jumpjets, perhaps also downgrade the engine a bit. The Daishi would definitely upscale its engine so that it isn't so darn slow, and frontload its armor a bit more (plus, remove some leg armor). I don't think I have to go into details on how much the lights would benefit from being about to "De-Omnitize" themselves...

The point is, being an Omnimech in MWO is not even remotely as powerful as being an Omni in TT. Most of the Omnimech's advantages in BT don't carry over to MWO, such as:
A. Min-maxing for the upcoming mission (i.e. load up on energy weapons for an ice map, ballistics for Mordor, etc.)
B. The ability to customize faster and easier than Battlemechs (BMs are free and fast, so there will be no speed/difficulty difference between the two)
C. Easier repairs for Omnipod mounted equipment
D. Hardpoints sort of limit the total number of weapons you can carry (you can only swap hardpoints between variants, but you can't fill up your pod space with whatever you want like BT because you are constrained by hardpoints)

It's also noteworthy that many of the IS Battlemechs at this time had horrendously terrible stock equipment--many of them were still using {Scrap} like SHS and standard internal structure--which meant that the gimped base configs of the Omnimechs didn't seem quite so bad. Here, IS BMs have all of their weaknesses removed via the mechlab. The Omnis, however, maintain all of their weaknesses and lack most of their strengths. A few of them might be salvageable if their weapons are strong enough, but that doesn't actually make the Omnis themselves good; it just means that they're carried by their powerful armaments (and get lucky enough to have one of the good base configs).




Side note:
If Clan regular Battlemechs inherited the same customization system as IS Battlemechs...it would be GGCLOSE for the Omnis. And IS Omnis don't have any hope at all because their base config is stuffed with inferior IS components that can't be swapped out via Omnipods (i.e. IS XL, IS FF, IS Endo, IS DHS, etc.).

Edited by FupDup, 30 January 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

I like how PGI is implementing omnimechs

What I dont like is how PGI has implemented IS mechs and made them more customizable than omnis.

So what you're really saying is that you don't understand the OP at all. Even in tabletop, you could not customize engine, armor, crit slots, or anything else locked into an Omnimech's base config. Doing so, strangely enough, turned it into a battlemech. Battlemechs in tabletop are, bizzarely, MORE customizable than Omnimechs, given months of time and a refitting facility. The strength if the Omnimech comes from its flexibility in the field, as you can swap weapons and equipment on and off of the omnimech in a few hours to adapt it to battlefield changes. However, altering anything on an omnimech's base config removes its modularity and turns it into a regular old battlemech.

Again, with months of work and an industrial refittig center, battlemechs are more customizable than Omnimechs. Always have been. The strength of an omnimech comes from its ability to change its weapons loadout in the field very quickly with nothing more than a mobile field base. These changes did not include armor or engines.

[Sterling M Archer]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

What I dont like is how PGI has implemented IS mechs and made them more customizable than omnis.

This all that needs to be posted.

[MustrumRidcully]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

So what you're really saying is that you don't understand the OP at all. Even in tabletop, you could not customize engine, armor, crit slots, or anything else locked into an Omnimech's base config. Doing so, strangely enough, turned it into a battlemech. Battlemechs in tabletop are, bizzarely, MORE customizable than Omnimechs, given months of time and a refitting facility. The strength if the Omnimech comes from its flexibility in the field, as you can swap weapons and equipment on and off of the omnimech in a few hours to adapt it to battlefield changes. However, altering anything on an omnimech's base config removes its modularity and turns it into a regular old battlemech.

Again, with months of work and an industrial refittig center, battlemechs are more customizable than Omnimechs. Always have been. The strength of an omnimech comes from its ability to change its weapons loadout in the field very quickly with nothing more than a mobile field base. These changes did not include armor or engines.

So all you're suggesting to me is that I should just ask PGI to install a "switch" to "de-omnimize" my mech and everything will be fine. Okay. Maybe we should tell them that before they start any serious work on Omnitech.

[Josef Nader]

No, I'm saying that if you don't like how Omnitech is implemented, you can stick to the IS tech base. Of course, this means you won't have access to those shiny new guns, but hey, you'll be able to adjust armor.

If, on the other hand, you're adaptable and capable of working within constraints, clan mechs are going to absolutely crush everything in front of them.

[SaltBeef]

Chemie, on 29 January 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

two words: stock armor

many useless and only a few will be OK

See clan mech...shoot its legs with 6 armor.

This would be fixed if armor was different. IS standard / Clan standard IS FF / CLAN FF make Clan FF a little better per ton Problem fixed. They kept advancing I am sure their armor did too. Make it bulkier but better protection per ton.

[GalaxyBluestar]

thanks for the omni lecture... and it has no bearing on what PGI's MWO game is. try telling them the heat threashold is 30 not 100, that ecm is not the angle guardian and nullsig combined and that bap wasn't supposed to be a direct counter to it. that the heat ruleset also had parameters tacked on for certain weapon groups adding random heat penilties in use and that the IS mechlab format is only available to the richest top ranks of royal gaurds with his own factory for the amount of customisation available in it.

PGI has totally ruined Battletech in this game, just try a trial mech... oh sorry they were replaced on launch buy modified champions because even PGI realised they screwed BT stock mechs over. the worst implementation in mechwarrior history.

meanwhile everyone will pay huge prices to find 1 madcat to be the same hardpoint restricted mech that an IS mech is except the customisation limitations are huge until omni componant swaping which will mean purchasing even more parts or another mech. totally un economical for all the restricted nerfs on it. nice to remember TT all of a sudden when you want to throw new mechs into the same old broken alpha system that is the same mech lab {where's you're quote that omnimech need "varients" to configure weapons in omni pods?} in the same random 12v12 deathmatch.

don't kid yourself OP, PGI are just adapting as much as possible to just throw more mechs into the random merc players bay because they can't build a system that would actually represent clanners. they want a quick buck so they're breaking the clan mechs to make another grab pack possible. clan affiliated players are being screwed over and aren't even recieving representation in the game, they'll be deployed with IS using IS currency tacked onto the IS mechlab. a ******* disgrace.

[Sephlock]

All I can say is that if they don't show any signs of bending on the armor thing, I am considering getting a gold mech just so I can name it "Nancy Kerrigan".

[Khobai]

Quote

So what you're really saying is that you don't understand the OP at all. Even in tabletop, you could not customize engine, armor, crit slots, or anything else locked into an Omnimech's base config. Doing so, strangely enough, turned it into a battlemech. Battlemechs in tabletop are, bizzarely, MORE customizable than Omnimechs,

No I definitely understand the OP. But I dont agree that battlemechs are more customizable than omnimechs in tabletop.

While its true that you can change virtually anything on a battlemech by using refit kits, the reality is those refit kits are extremely expensive, often require access to a mech factory, and are usually only available to elite mercenary or house units. And factory refits can take weeks if you have to transport the mech to a factory.

Omnimechs on the other hand can completely change their weapon loadouts between missions. Even if they cant change their engine or armor values. So I would definitely say omnimechs are more customizable overall in tabletop.

However thats not the case in MWO since IS mechs can change their loadouts freely from one mission to the next without penalty. IMO whenever you change anything on an IS mech, that mech should be placed "out of commision" for several hours while it undergoes refit. You should of course be able to pay MC or cbills to speed this process up. Conversely omnimechs should be able to switch weapons/configurations in between missions without penalty.

Edited by Khobai, 30 January 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Adapt Clan Mechs Straight from Rulebook. Check.

Adapt IS Mechs Straight from MechWarrior Rulebook Everything Goes. Check.

Does Not Compute.

[Josef Nader]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

No I definitely understand the OP. But I dont agree that battlemechs are more customizable than omnimechs in tabletop.

While its true that you can change virtually anything on a battlemech by using refit kits, the reality is those refit kits are extremely expensive, often require access to a mech factory, and are usually only available to elite mercenary or house units. And factory refits can take weeks if you have to transport the mech to a factory.

Omnimechs on the other hand can completely change their weapon loadouts between missions. Even if they cant change their engine or armor values. So I would definitely say omnimechs are more customizable overall in tabletop.

However thats not the case in MWO since IS mechs can change their loadouts freely from one mission to the next without penalty. IMO whenever you change anything on an IS mech, that mech should be placed "out of commision" for several hours while it undergoes refit. You should of course be able to pay MC or cbills to speed this process up. Conversely omnimechs should be able to switch weapons/configurations in between missions without penalty.

This line of argument is bad and you should feel bad.

No customization, stock mechs only, final destination. Nobody wants to play that gamemode, and even if it was implemented it would be so horribly imbalanced and skewed towards mechs with DHS stock that it wouldn't even be funny. You think certain variants are useless -now-? Just wait till we're forced to run them stock. The Blackjack with his whole ton of ammo, or the Jägermech with the Blackjack's armor values. These mechs are definitely viable and totally worth running without any prior modification.

I am 300% behind them giving omnimechs a customizability advantage once Community Warfare becomes a thing and we have a persistent metagame, but when it comes to these banal, mindless, context-free slap battles we're playing right now there is really no point to force players to pay to change their loadout. Tweaking your builds is half the fun of battletech.

[MustrumRidcully]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

No, I'm saying that if you don't like how Omnitech is implemented, you can stick to the IS tech base. Of course, this means you won't have access to those shiny new guns.

That's a jump to conclusion - clan weaponry does not require omnimechs.

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

This line of argument is bad and you should feel bad.

No customization, stock mechs only, final destination.

That's not what he wrote. he just said that (standard) mech customziation should cost money and/or time. I think that wouldn't have been a bad idea if PGI had introduced the concept sometimes during Closed or Open Beta.


It could basically be MW:O's crafting subsystem.

I don't agree with his time requirements - I tend to think anything longer than 40-60 minutes would probably be too long. (at least for the standard stuff, I could accept Structure and maybe even Engine switch between STD and XL too cost more time)

You could have a neat distinction between Omni and non-Omni:
Omnis can deal with weapon and gear changes easily, costing no time, but engine, armor or structure changes take very long.
Non-Omnis would need more time for weapon and gear changes, but less for engine, armor or structural changes than Omnis.

You could have additional stuff like hiring engineers/technician to boost repairs and refits, you could have guilds/mercenary companies/military companies that acquire (buy/conquer) mech factors to speed up the process. And on top of that, C-Bill and MC consumables that speed up the process. A great money sink and a great constant source of income for PGI.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 30 January 2014 - 11:19 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

This line of argument is bad and you should feel bad.

No customization, stock mechs only, final destination. Nobody wants to play that gamemode,

I never said anything about no customization or stock mechs.

Maybe you should try reading a dr suess book to improve your reading comprehension.

[Ghogiel]

Josef Nader, on 30 January 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

modifying one removes their modularity, turning them into battlemechs.

Sounds good to me.

I'll take me some clan battlemech with clan tech ktnx

[Arctcwolf]

the rules say nothing about how excess slots, weight, or hard points will be used. Omnimechs will be required to have a minimum armor amount, but im sure if u want to add more that will be allowed based on free tonnage.

what will be difficult is working around the critical slots required to be taken up in different body parts. This will limit the number and size of weapons. if u look at a madcat prime, it has a lot of weapons in the side torso's, LRM's, med lasers, machine guns, ammo, ect. along with XL engine, endo steel, ferro fibrous. If CGI increases crits on the clan LRM 20's, u wont be running them on ur madcat.

[Chemie]

as a light pilot, I can assure you I will not choose to run around in a 100kph clan light mech trying to kill 150kph IS light mechs. I think the light clan mechs are DOA on speed and leg armor.

[Josef Nader]

Chemie, on 31 January 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

as a light pilot, I can assure you I will not choose to run around in a 100kph clan light mech trying to kill 150kph IS light mechs. I think the light clan mechs are DOA on speed and leg armor.

Sure, if you try to fight IS lights in a clan light, you're going to explode hilariously. This is what Clan mediums will excel at. I'd like to see an IS light go toe to toe with the Stormcrow B with its 6 ER Mediums and UAC 20 going 97kph.

What Clan lights will absoloutely be good at is pecking IS assaults and heavies to death with harassment tactics and long range bombardment. You've got to think past the current meta.

And anyone who says it's a good idea to lock a player out of gameplay for any length of meatspace time needs a careful lecture on how to make money with games and proper game design. Any attempt to push the issue should result in the marketing team beating the person to death. When I only have half an hour to play a few rounds and the game locks me out of my mech because I wanted to add an extra ton of ammo or reallocate some armor, that game has just welded my wallet shut.

[Voivode]

Ah, the MW:O community! I've been here two years and I tell you, every single mech they've released has been declared "DOA" by half the community. Everything everywhere is always DOA!

The old: "It isn't what I'm used to so I hate it so much!"