1026 replies to this topic

[Stygian Steel]

Siriothrax, on 05 February 2014 - 07:31 PM, said:

What are you talking about? Pepe is the best Highlander pilot in SJR.

you all are lucky that i don't pilot a highlander or else I would be the best highlander pilot of all time

[Araara]

Although yes, the highlander has good hardpoints and hitboxes compared to other assaults, nerfing this specific mech will only make us comp players go to whatever the next best mech is for a specific role.

The reason why it's "op" right now is moreso due to weapon balance and JJ system. Like some said in a couple of posts earlier, PPCs is a common factor to the current high alpha builds, the current implementation of jumpjets right now is problematic and a lot of weapon systems are just bad compared to the higher tier weapons.

We've already went over this once in closed beta. I've been playing lights mechs and only light mechs since closed beta (aside from the occasional trial mech run for group laughs or trolling) both in competitive and non-competitive. Back then in closed beta, the jenner-D was king because of streak missile damage. When they implemented the raven-3L with both missile hardpoints and ECM, the jenner was almost NEVER PLAYED in either pug games or comp games. Yes, everyone switched to the raven-3L, the next best mech. The same is going to happen here because what's out of balance isn't the mech itself but the weapon balance.

Again, competitive players do just that, take the best mech for their specific role.


Once we get more weapons balanced and the ability to choose our maps, yeah we'll see the "metagame" change as multiple strategies will be viable and map specific.




Also a bit off-topic but : for whoever is saying "fun" comes from playing a multitude of mechs, meta or non meta, I call bullshit. Please don't push your idea of what "fun" is to other people because that's how games die.

You force people to play a certain way and people will get bored doing the same repetitive thing.
Make a game that has many different possibilities and players will create their own definition of "fun".

Edited by Araara, 06 February 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[cSand]

kbilly, on 06 February 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

lol this guy is so scared of having his baby nerfed! The Highlander is literally the only mech I ever see him in when I've played against him.

Here's a fun video of him not "dominating no matter what".



You can skip to 4:36 after the HoL insecure chest thumping at the beginning to see where his epeen starts to get deflated.

Fjord kbilly

glenclose

Gold Jerry, gold!

[Skexy]

I don't use more than 1 or 2 JJs on most of my jump capable mechs because I find that to give more than enough lift for most circumstances. On most of those mechs I feel like I'm getting away with something, and the highlander is the most notable example of that as the single JJ is plenty to pop up on most maps and more than adequate to even out movement on most maps. I feel like one JJ on a highlander should get me to about half my mechs height and maybe last as long as it does and it would be a reasonable bar for a nerf.

-skexy

[IceSerpent]

StalaggtIKE, on 06 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

A brief history of our battle against the metagame:

• Hexa PPC builds (ghost heat)
  
• PPC/Gauss builds (Gauss Rifle charge & JJ shake)
  
• PPC & AC10/AC20 builds (AC10 & AC20 velocity nerf)
  
• PPC & AC5 builds (???)

Notice a common variable? Yes, the PPC. It was nerfed once, however apparently it wasn't enough. I think the PPC should have another passover as well.

This is not entirely correct, battle against the metagame went roughly like this (from memory, might miss a few things):

• Beginning of CBT - good builds were SRM boat, StreakSRM boat, dual gauss, SRM+ML mix, StreakSRM+ML mix.
  
• Gauss hp nerf - dual gauss is replaced by dual AC20 (boomCat), the rest remains the same.
  
• SRM nerf - long range configs suddenly become very effective as they have no good counter any longer. Range increase makes gauss good again as it became less likely to get blown up from behind. Good builds are (ER)PPC+gauss (i.e. cataphract) or just (ER)PPC boat (i.e. stalker). Streaks and MLs are now used on lights almost exclusively. Dual AC20 is still around, but is much less effective.
  
• Ghost heat - (ER)PPC boating is not good any longer, long range configs are down to just (ER)PPC + gauss combo.
  
• Gauss charging - gauss is now bad, snipers replace it with AC20. This shortens engagement range somewhat and twin AC20 boats got more effective and more popular
  
• AC20 velocity nerf - snipers replace them with AC5/UAC5 combo. Engagement range increases again and twin AC20 builds get worse again. The list of "good" configs shrinks down to 2 (ER)PPCs + as many AC5s or UAC5s as one can fit.

I didn't include LRM changes because they pretty much stayed bad through the whole duration aside from 3 LRMaggeddons when they became stupidly OP for short periods of time.

[Bilbo]

IceSerpent, on 06 February 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

This is not entirely correct, battle against the metagame went roughly like this (from memory, might miss a few things):

• Beginning of CBT - good builds were SRM boat, StreakSRM boat, dual gauss, SRM+ML mix, StreakSRM+ML mix.
  
• Gauss hp nerf - dual gauss is replaced by dual AC20 (boomCat), the rest remains the same.
  
• SRM nerf - long range configs suddenly become very effective as they have no good counter any longer. Range increase makes gauss good again as it became less likely to get blown up from behind. Good builds are (ER)PPC+gauss (i.e. cataphract) or just (ER)PPC boat (i.e. stalker). Streaks and MLs are now used on lights almost exclusively. Dual AC20 is still around, but is much less effective.
  
• Ghost heat - (ER)PPC boating is not good any longer, long range configs are down to just (ER)PPC + gauss combo.
  
• Gauss charging - gauss is now bad, snipers replace it with AC20. This shortens engagement range somewhat and twin AC20 boats got more effective and more popular
  
• AC20 velocity nerf - snipers replace them with AC5/UAC5 combo. Engagement range increases again and twin AC20 builds get worse again. The list of "good" configs shrinks down to 2 (ER)PPCs + as many AC5s or UAC5s as one can fit.

I didn't include LRM changes because they pretty much stayed bad through the whole duration aside from 3 LRMaggeddons when they became stupidly OP for short periods of time.

Pretty accurate. Can't wait to see what the JJ change(s) will be. Kinda silly that you only need one to get pretty much all the benefits from them, in my opinion.

[Victor Morson]

He's off on one thing - AC5/UAC5 didn't show up after the AC/20 nerf. It showed up after the Gauss recycle delay and was used along with AC/20 designs, at the same time. Even with the nerf AC/20 is heavily used yet.

[PhoenixFire55]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sitting across from the studio from me is a board with all the 'Mechs on it. In my crosshairs... the Highlander. More info to follow along with intended implementation date. Just giving you all a heads up.

How about you implement JJ mechanics properly and then waive your nerfhammer around, eh? This whole A is better then B lets nerf A story got old ages ago.

[Grits N Gravy]

One of the reasons why jump sniping is so effective is that projectiles do not inherit any of velocity from the mechs motion. Meaning you do not have to take the motion and velocity of your mech into account when firing projectile weapons.

Having the trajectory of the projectile shift with the motion of the firing mech would make jump sniping and specifically shooting on the down glide of the jump much more difficult. There is a much tighter and narrower window to make those shots. If you do that and slightly nerf the initial boost of jump you greatly reduce the effectiveness of all jump sniping.

[Bors Mistral]

FupDup, on 05 February 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

On a side note, a nice indirect nerf to the Highlander (and other jumpjetting alpha snipers) would be to change the jumpjet formula. Right now you get most of the kick from just 1 jet, and adding additional jets has a "diminishing returns" effect.

Ditto, Jump Jets need a rework. A single one does way too much, and maxed out jets seem lacking in most cases.

- The number of JJ installed should effect air rotation speed, and it should be way slower when half your JJ slots are empty
- You shouldn't be able to rotate at all in the air if you're out of JJ fuel
- The time you can stay in the air should be different too. At the moment it's always around 4 seconds. Make it more or less dependant on the amount of installed JJ
- JJ should give more forward momentum
- Ascend and descend speeds needs to increase

In short, make single JJ considerable less useful, make multiples better.

Edit: Or, you know, put a charge mechanic on PPC's already. That, or 7 direct damage and 3 splash to random adjacent section.

Edited by Bors Mistral, 06 February 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Sterling M Archer, on 06 February 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

Probably because the AC20 is the only single weapon that does 20 damage in one hit.

On a side note, I find it funny that someone says they will be looking at JJs and other mechs, and people that pilot Highlanders and Victors start freaking out immediately, you can see them sweating from the international space station.
I think everyone that's freaking out needs to calm down just a bit, this might not be anything to worry about.

Still think that the majority of the high end poptarting crowd isn't going to be particularly perturbed by poptarting getting smashed, any more than any other meta change. They'll just find out whatever is the new most effective means of winning, and do that.

Nobody - at the high end at least - is doing it because poptarting is the most fun thing ever, they're doing it because they like winning.

[Khobai]

Nerfing the highlander won't help. Victor will just become new best mech. The problem is underlying game mechanics not individual mechs.

You want to nerf something constructively? Nerf pinpoint damage. Why can we still do 40 damage to one location? That's so unbalanced. Why do you want to nerf highlanders instead of the real problem?

Edited by Khobai, 06 February 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 06 February 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Nerfing the highlander won't help. Victor will just become new best mech. The problem is underlying game mechanics not individual mechs.

+1

As others have said, the problem isn't the Highlander. It's a fairly well balanced mech, it's just the heaviest mech that perfectly* fits the current game. Nerf it, and the Victor takes it's place (which it very nearly already does anyways).

* Well, not perfectly. HGN's have lots of missile hardpoints, but it only has the tonnage to utilize the ballistics and energy to the current meta just so, and as such can safely ignore those silly missile hardpoints.

I'd so love to see SRM's not suck, so brawling weapons would actually be better in a brawl than sniper/fire support weapons. *sighs*

[Bilbo]

Khobai, on 06 February 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Nerfing the highlander won't help. Victor will just become new best mech. The problem is underlying game mechanics not individual mechs.

You want to nerf something constructively? Nerf pinpoint damage. Why can we still do 40 damage to one location? That's so unbalanced. Why do you want to nerf highlanders instead of the real problem?

The are looking at JJ's not the Highlander specifically.

[Noesis]

Hey if its a nerf to HGN specifically and the JJ is a ruse to wake the dragon maybe Paul has asked to change the Heavy Metals' kill tune to something even less palatable?

Can you imagine the torture with "Justin Kerensky Bieber" perhaps? "Mech bay, Mech bay, Mech bay ..... oh"

[Wakdjunkaga]

I like some of the JJ ideas we've got in here. One of them that sticks out is making max JJ's actually mean something, and 1 be not all that useful. I like the idea of still being able to fire while airborne, but just shut off pinpoint(convergence) while in the air at any point. I also would like to see a little more forwardness and a little less upward movement. (meaning the per JJ for 30m would not get you as high anymore)
But lets consider a few others things we can break, (er play with) while they are being looked at. Heat- Heat per JJ, over time, when in use... like a flamer (ducks) that is fairly flat. Smaller class JJ's produce less heat, weigh less, but also aren't moving as large of mechs around.

I like what wanderer has to say about in air rotation, and I think we can take that a step further- based off from your installed engine, your in air rotation could actually be superior to your on ground rotation if you have enough jump jets to make those maneuvers. So lets say we have 5 JJ equal your on ground rotation. There are some mechs that are going to be able to exceed that by quite a bit (if they max their JJs)... so 20% per JJ of your current engine's rotation speed. Wait, what about mechs that get 6/7/8/12 JJs? 6=120%, 7=140%, 8=160%, 12=240%... yes that means those mechs running 1/2/3/4 are going to see some reduction- and just aren't meant to be aerial acrobats while jumping.


That said- I've seen plenty of deadly grounded HGN pilots... Schopenhauer comes to mind (and if he does JJ it is just for obstacles)... Do HGNs need to be any weaker? *shrug* They are the best at catching LRMs to their CT, but maybe put in some JJ changes to see if the HGN itself needs to be tweeked at all.

Edited by Wakdjunkaga, 06 February 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[DevsAdvocate]

Question: Why not eliminate jumping and shooting altogether? Erase the poptart problem once and for all, which is hardly limited to the Highlander chassis.

I mean, maybe we can exclude light mechs from this nerf and let them shoot and jump and keep it as a quirk for them, but everything medium or higher would no longer be able to jump and shoot simultaneously?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

DevsAdvocate, on 06 February 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Question: Why not eliminate jumping and shooting altogether? Erase the poptart problem once and for all, which is hardly limited to the Highlander chassis.

I mean, maybe we can exclude light mechs from this nerf and let them shoot and jump and keep it as a quirk for them, but everything medium or higher would no longer be able to jump and shoot simultaneously?

The problem isn't that poptarts exist. The problem is that right now it overshadows other methods of delivering damage.

[viperabyss]

Khobai, on 06 February 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

Nerfing the highlander won't help. Victor will just become new best mech. The problem is underlying game mechanics not individual mechs.

You want to nerf something constructively? Nerf pinpoint damage. Why can we still do 40 damage to one location? That's so unbalanced. Why do you want to nerf highlanders instead of the real problem?

How's pinpoint damage the problem? I fail to see how forcing everyone to do 2x~3x the amount of damage to get a mech down will solve the issue associated with the current meta.

The only way to solve the problem would be to manipulate the game play so that rushing the snipers become a viable option.

[Victor Morson]

Sterling M Archer, on 06 February 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

On a side note, I find it funny that someone says they will be looking at JJs and other mechs, and people that pilot Highlanders and Victors start freaking out immediately, you can see them sweating from the international space station.

Except that's not what's happening.

We're saying "Fix the right things. Make the other 'mechs better. Get rid of the silly limitations that have eliminated the Stalker/Battlemaster from competing." We're not going "Ohhhh no we're going to lose our Highlanders!"

We don't want another elaborate, Rube-Goldberg fix like Ghost Heat that makes no sense and doesn't accomplish what it sets out to because it was so, so poorly thought out.

People who pilot the non-meta stuff don't really understand where we're coming from. We don't want more 'mechs screwed up, we want more 'mechs usable. I'd love a viable Awesome far more than I'd love a nerf'ed anything. I'd also love to move away from ballistic+energy as the primary thing, but again, their "fix" for 6 PPC Stalkers (Which would not work with the fixed PPC) destroyed hundreds of viable builds.

If they screw up jump jets - with jump sniping not even being a problem and their importance now being central to mobility on maps - they are barking up the wrong tree.