1026 replies to this topic

[cSand]

This is all I can think of reading this thread:

Edited by cSand, 06 February 2014 - 02:28 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

DevsAdvocate, on 06 February 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Right, so why not eliminate it and let other methods prevail?

By that logic why not buff it and let it be the only way to play?

[Splitpin]

DevsAdvocate, on 06 February 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Question: Why not eliminate jumping and shooting altogether? Erase the poptart problem once and for all, which is hardly limited to the Highlander chassis.

Because you'll make a 3D game into a 2D game, resulting in a narrower and therefore more boring game. Currently with Assaults you have three choices, be a ground pounder eg Stalker and play peek-a-boo around cover, be a jumper eg HGN/VTR and use cover vertically or a DDC and carry your cover (ECM) around with you. Remove one of those options and what do you have, just less options. If you die too quick to jumpers now, you'll simply die just as quick to something else.

[h0wl]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sitting across from the studio from me is a board with all the 'Mechs on it. In my crosshairs... the Highlander. More info to follow along with intended implementation date. Just giving you all a heads up.

Oh you mean an additional nerf that goes along with JJ Shake & Gauss Desync and GhostHeat? Please, tell us how you'll take this 90 ton mech and turn it into something suitable for World of Tanks Paul...

How about instead of nerfing mechs you fix some of the other problems in the game.

Edited by h0wl, 06 February 2014 - 02:45 PM.

[MechB Kotare]

I think PGI should nerf the maps...

[DevsAdvocate]

Thanatos676, on 06 February 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

You cant just "eliminate" a play-style completely. But you can certainly tweak it so its not as OP...

Yeah, we can, if it's ruining the game for 80% of other builds. If the league competitors use mechs who can jump and deliver high alpha shots, and nerfing the weapons is too much, then nerfing the playstyle is your best bet.

It's a simple fix, the very least we should test out. If you're jumping then you can't shoot. Except for Lights.

Splitpin, on 06 February 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Because you'll make a 3D game into a 2D game, resulting in a narrower and therefore more boring game. Currently with Assaults you have three choices, be a ground pounder eg Stalker and play peek-a-boo around cover, be a jumper eg HGN/VTR and use cover vertically or a DDC and carry your cover (ECM) around with you. Remove one of those options and what do you have, just less options. If you die too quick to jumpers now, you'll simply die just as quick to something else.

Umm, there is nothing 3D about poptarting. It's just a cheap way to get a quick shot off.

If you want 3D gameplay, add air units.

Rouken, on 06 February 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

By that logic why not buff it and let it be the only way to play?

Then the game will get real boring...

[Dracol]

Paul Inouye, on 05 February 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Sitting across from the studio from me is a board with all the 'Mechs on it. In my crosshairs... the Highlander. More info to follow along with intended implementation date. Just giving you all a heads up.

As others have stated, the Highlander benefits from asymmetrical load outs (100% fire power longer then other mechs), ability to equip a combination of AC's and PPCs, and jumping. Any mech with that combination will have more performance options then a mech of the same weight class missing one or more of them.

IMHO, nerfing the Highlander specifically to combat this combination would be a band aid and the combo would just still be visible in any other mech with that combination.

With that being said, one very unique aspect of MWO is the separate arm and torso targeting reticles. With the arm/torso combo of the highlander, using the torso lock eliminates this unique aspect as well as decreasing the skill require to land all shots on the same point of a mech.

Now, I can understand the importance for new players to get the feel of piloting a mech before having to learn to aim with dual reticles.... but why must it be key bound?

REMOVE THE OPTION TO KEYBIND TORSO LOCK

What this would do is:
A) keep torso lock available for new players
B ) make more experienced players choose either:
- Keep torso lock engaged, keeping their mech at the slower response time of the torso reticle speed as well as limiting their vertical and horizontal movement to the torso max
- Or they choose to disable torso lock, giving them greater movement and responsiveness but at the cost of having to line up both reticles to land shots on one location

IMHO, what this would do would cause damage to be more spread out from jump snipers.... in effect adding spread. Some players, those you take the time to learn the skill, will be able to still place pin point shots onto one location. But, that's player skill, something that should be encouraged, and not the game giving you an easy solution, which it currently does by allowing torso lock to be key bound.

Edited by Dracol, 06 February 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[DevsAdvocate]

Dracol, on 06 February 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

As others have stated, the Highlander benefits from asymmetrical load outs (100% fire power longer then other mechs), ability to equip a combination of AC's and PPCs, and jumping. Any mech with that combination will have more performance options then a mech of the same weight class missing one or more of them.

IMHO, nerfing the Highlander specifically to combat this combination would be a band aid and the combo would just still be visible in any other mech with that combination.

With that being said, one very unique aspect of MWO is the separate arm and torso targeting reticles. With the arm/torso combo of the highlander, using the torso lock eliminates this unique aspect as well as decreasing the skill require to land all shots on the same point of a mech.

Now, I can understand the importance for new players to get the feel of piloting a mech before having to learn to aim with dual reticles.... but why must it be key bound?

REMOVE THE OPTION TO KEYBIND TORSO LOCK

What this would do is:
A) keep torso lock available for new players
make more experienced players choose either:
- Keep torso lock engaged, keeping their mech at the slower response time of the torso reticle speed as well as limiting their vertical and horizontal movement to the torso max
- Or they choose to disable torso lock, giving them greater movement and responsiveness but at the cost of having to line up both reticles to land shots on one location

IMHO, what this would do would cause damage to be more spread out from jump snipers.... in effect adding spread. Some players, those you take the time to learn the skill, will be able to still place pin point shots onto one location. But, that's player skill, something that should be encouraged, and not the game giving you an easy solution, which it currently does by allowing torso lock to be key bound.

Don't jump snipers already use torso lock?

[Dracol]

h0wl, on 06 February 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

How about instead of nerfing mechs you fix some of the other problems in the game.

If I'm not mistaken, he's tasked with game balance. I would not be surprised if he is as frustrated with the poor HSR of srms as we are, but that's not his department.

Granted, he could go into the engineers section of the office cracking a bull whip and yelling "Faster you monkeys, faster" but if I recall correctly, last time he did that the servers went down for a couple of hours.

[Dracol]

DevsAdvocate, on 06 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Don't jump snipers already use torso lock?

The ones just jumping onto the the jump snipe wagon do and their weaknesses can be exploited. It seems after getting eaten alive by fast lights or being unable to fire upon mechs lower then them on Alpine, they key bind it, giving em the choice as the situation calls for it.

[DevsAdvocate]

Dracol, on 06 February 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

The ones just jumping onto the the jump snipe wagon do and their weaknesses can be exploited. It seems after getting eaten alive by fast lights or being unable to fire upon mechs lower then them on Alpine, they key bind it, giving em the choice as the situation calls for it.

I don't think this solves the situation adequately. Especially if the enemy has lights/light hunters backing them up...

[Dracol]

DevsAdvocate, on 06 February 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

I don't think this solves the situation adequately. Especially if the enemy has lights/light hunters backing them up...

Well, if a mech needs another mech to cover up their weaknesses due to specializing.... I'd say that's a step in the right direction at least.

Look at dedicated lrm boats, they get eating alive usually by lights, so they have support. A Highlander at the moment can take on a light fairly easily. If a person wishes to be dedicated to jump sniping and utilizes the torso lock option (advantage), then suffering from a weakness shared by another dedicated unit, ie lrm boats, would help level the playing field.

If that person wishes to still be able to handle lights as easily as they do now, then they'd have to turn off the torso lock option (advantage) and utilize skill in order to land all shots on the same location.

Edited by Dracol, 06 February 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[WM Jeri]

Joe Decker, on 06 February 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

So far that is true, just let me add this :

Tonnage does not really balance this Thing. For a light Mech sacrificing 0,5 tons can mean more than 2 tons for an Assault Mech.

If the bigger Jumpjet would need 2 Tons and 3 or 4 critical Slots instead of 0,5 Tons and 1 Slot it would be balanced. It is bigger, so it should use also more Space.

It would be balanced than from that Aspect, now please add the higher falling Damage because of the higher Weight and the System might Work.

Only if they add in the velocities and mass of mechs in collision, right now there is basically no penalty say for lights to leg hump or bump. If you want to add and caluculate damage based on tonnage for falling then impact mech to mech and mass calculations need to come back into play.

[Victor Morson]

Kin3ticX, on 06 February 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

buff the hill climb module and give every non-JJ mech another module slot

Hill climb should have impacted hill climbing angle. NOT deceleration rates.

EDIT: Why is a 'mechs hill climb angle not listed in the new UI graphics speaking of that? It's a big deal; it's NOT tonnage dependent. A Stalker has a better climb rate than a Victor.

It should be a visible stat.

Edited by Victor Morson, 06 February 2014 - 03:38 PM.

[Dracol]

WM Jeri, on 06 February 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

Only if they add in the velocities and mass of mechs in collision, right now there is basically no penalty say for lights to leg hump or bump. If you want to add and caluculate damage based on tonnage for falling then impact mech to mech and mass calculations need to come back into play.

Not a simple solution to implement..... but, what something along the same lines:

Turn falling damage into a % instead of a fixed amount.
Example (figures made up to illustrate point)
- Currently A jenner or a highlander falls from a set height of lets say 5 meters and takes 1 point of damage.
(jenner is effected more due to lower total leg armor)
- Alternative: basing damage on current jenner totals, a jenner falls from a set of 5 meters and takes .0287% damage (1 pt of max 35). The Highlander takes the same fall and receives 2.71 pts damage (.0287% of max 76 leg armor)

This may be how it currently works already.. I don't know for sure one way or the other to be honest

[Victor Morson]

DevsAdvocate, on 06 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Don't jump snipers already use torso lock?

Yeeeeep.

Arm Lock is a HUGE HUGE deal. It lets you snap and accurately fire arms & torsos together, which you cannot do with them unlocked. Being able to toggle it? No downsides and it lets you pinpoint shots that would normally take a little time to converge, and thus, you'd have to lead a target.

I've been rallying against Arm Lock since day 1. Put it in ATD several times. Got a bunch of polls wildly in favor of removing it in the various forums. And here we are.

[wanderer]

Quote

FIX SRM'S!!!

Your wish may be granted. Tried them post UI 2.0 yet?

Quote

Game will balance itself!! NO NEED OF NERFS, JUST FIX UR GOD DAMN GAME!!!

If so,go prove it.

[Roland]

Victor Morson, on 06 February 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Yeeeeep.

Arm Lock is a HUGE HUGE deal. It lets you snap and accurately fire arms & torsos together, which you cannot do with them unlocked. Being able to toggle it? No downsides and it lets you pinpoint shots that would normally take a little time to converge, and thus, you'd have to lead a target.

I've been rallying against Arm Lock since day 1. Put it in ATD several times. Got a bunch of polls wildly in favor of removing it in the various forums. And here we are.

Yeah, the addition of arm lock to the game really made things worse... What's funny, is that a ton of people don't really understand this, and are under the same misconception that PGI is... that it's a "newb" feature.. when in reality, there are a ton of cases where having arm lock turned on gives you massive aiming advantages.

It not only allows you to move your torso weapons FASTER than when they are unlocked, but it actually increases the precision of your arm weapons as well, since (for some unknown reason) the arm reticle actually drifts back a tiny bit towards the torso reticle when you stop moving it.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Paul's post from http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3133184 that should be on this topic instead.

Paul Inouye, on 06 February 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

I'll chime in here since the write up was well thought out and presented. (Not that other posts haven't been the same, but I'm being prodded by other internal influences)

Josef above touched on the critical issue that we are looking at... increasing the time to kill. I'll go as far as saying this... some of the medium and heavy 'Mechs went through a quirk balance pass. This has not happened for any of the assaults. Currently, assaults are a little too agile for what they are... the giant sledge hammers of the battlefield. The two Mechs which are currently above expected behaviour are the Highlander AND the Victor. Now keep in mind, it is not just the chassis that is the problem in this case, the jump jet effects on turning and lift also compound the issue with these two 'Mechs specifically. We will be addressing both issues at the same time.

Remember.. the nerf gun is a mid caliber gun... it can do little to medium changes but it's not going to render the targets useless.

So Victors and Highlanders will be affected by the nerf bat as well as jumpjets. I'm fine with that.

[Dracol]

IV Amen, on 06 February 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Paul's post from http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3133184 that should be on this topic instead.

So Victors and Highlanders will be affected by the nerf bat as well as jumpjets. I'm fine with that.

Nice find and thanks for posting in here. For me, it's good to hear a little bit about their thought process. Had not realized assaults were being exempt from the performance tweaks.