1026 replies to this topic

[TheMagician]

StalaggtIKE, on 06 February 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

A brief history of our battle against the metagame:

• Hexa PPC builds (ghost heat)
  
• PPC/Gauss builds (Gauss Rifle charge & JJ shake)
  
• PPC & AC10/AC20 builds (AC10 & AC20 velocity nerf)
  
• PPC & AC5 builds (???)

Notice a common variable? Yes, the PPC. It was nerfed once, however apparently it wasn't enough. I think the PPC should have another passover as well.

You are missing a few:
First there was: Small laser hunchies, medium laser K2s, and medium pulse awesomes
Then there was: K2 Gauss boats, cents, and jenners
Then there was: A1 splat cats, centers, and Ravens
Then there was: PPC stalkers (improved hit detection + speed + reduced heat), 3D 2PPC/Gauss, some cents, and ravens (later jenners once again, particularly when strk nerf hit)
Then there was: HgN 3PPC/Gauss + 3D 2PPC/Gauss
Now there is: HgN 2PPC/2UAC5

[Victor Morson]

I just love how that PGI is apparently so far behind the curve on meta (kind of like when they nerf'ed the 9 Laser Swayback a year after nobody cared anymore), that they think jump jets are the real problem.

Failing to notice that, gee, every single one of the 'mechs that are a "problem" tend to have the same energy + ballistic load outs because they keep nerfing all alternatives, heh.

They can't balance something they don't understand and they will not take their heads out of the sand to try to communicate with groups and get actual helpful feedback.

[MavRCK]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

I just love how that PGI is apparently so far behind the curve on meta (kind of like when they nerf'ed the 9 Laser Swayback a year after nobody cared anymore), that they think jump jets are the real problem.

Failing to notice that, gee, every single one of the 'mechs that are a "problem" tend to have the same energy + ballistic load outs because they keep nerfing all alternatives, heh.

They can't balance something they don't understand and they will not take their heads out of the sand to try to communicate with groups and get actual helpful feedback.

It's not like organizing a whole tournament three or four times gives you any insight into balance...

[FactorlanP]

MavRCK, on 10 February 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

Ya because human beings have this tendency to try and hit what they aim for.

We should just make it artificially impossible to utilize skill and physical coordination to hit something.

In fact, at the Olympics they should randomly assign rifles with randomly-aligned sights to shoot their targets.

In fact, we should roll dice to determine which rifle is given to which random biathlete.

Then we should roll dice to determine which rounds loaded into the rifle actually fire and which ones are in fact blanks.

Best ******* Olympics ever -- you know that Biathlete with the gold medal is the most skilled and the most RNG-favoured, dice-rolling-lucky athlete in THE WORLD!

Yes!!

Oh wait, this is sarcasm and it's a stupid idea. Don't take it seriously.

When I beta-tested Counter-Strike years ago, "random" shot arrangements were introduced because the Mp5 was so accurate you could hit a target from across the map.. Eventually players figured out the algorithm and determined the shot spread so they could hit someone across the map with the 3rd shot... It took years before a suitable solution was found and even then, the RNG in these solutions are a considerable source of frustration and controversy in these games.

Be careful what you ask for.

I said nothing about anything random.

Pinpoint convergence is the problem... You know, the fact that every weapon you mount hits EXACTLY the same spot... It requires no skill whatsoever.

What if every weapon had its own crosshair, in the same pattern as they were mounted on the mech... Now for you to put all of your damage on the same spot, it would take great skill. You would have to chain fire, moving your aim after each shot.

That would require waaaaaay more skill than what we have now.

[White Panther]

FactorlanP, on 10 February 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Pinpoint convergence is the problem... You know, the fact that every weapon you mount hits EXACTLY the same spot... It requires no skill whatsoever.

Sure it does, because every other player can do it too. So if you can't aim better than the other players, then you won't win.

[Victor Morson]

FactorlanP, on 10 February 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Pinpoint convergence is the problem... You know, the fact that every weapon you mount hits EXACTLY the same spot... It requires no skill whatsoever.

I used to yell all the time about Arm Lock.

Before Arm Lock, there was a skill-based convergence system in there, as lining up arms & torso guns required you:

- Lead the target
- Hold still a moment while the guns align
- THEN fire

Corrections would slightly unalign your arms and torso. Then they decided to improve the "New User Experience" - three words that mean "screw the game up for everyone while not helping newbies" that would later prove true again with 3PV - and added that horrendous system.

Arm vs Torso guns used to matter and was a big part of designing the 'mech, and then they added a button to completely make all of it moot by instantly aligning all your weapons.

This caused a lot of the problem builds. Even now it does. The Highlander's PPCs and Ultras wouldn't be hitting the same exact spot on snap shots if they hadn't added this terrible feature into the game. Furthermore the mechanic was entirely skill based and also you could make all-arm or all-torso builds specifically to avoid it.

What I'm saying is Arm Lock took depth out of the game and made the pinpoint problem - in particular from jump sniping (NOT the jump jets themselves) - really appear.

EDIT: I actively invite anyone reading this and disagreeing to go play a round in a Highlander 733C with Arm Lock disabled and never using the toggle. It's a different world.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 February 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[MavRCK]

FactorlanP, on 10 February 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

I said nothing about anything random.

Pinpoint convergence is the problem... You know, the fact that every weapon you mount hits EXACTLY the same spot... It requires no skill whatsoever.

What if every weapon had its own crosshair, in the same pattern as they were mounted on the mech... Now for you to put all of your damage on the same spot, it would take great skill. You would have to chain fire, moving your aim after each shot.

That would require waaaaaay more skill than what we have now.

I apologize I didn't intend this sarcasm directly towards you.

I see your point and I agree to some extent.

Torso and arms have different targets and it takes some skill to align both target crosshairs - I suppose a third or fourth would be kinda of cool and fun to manage... say a crosshair for the RT and the LT?

Arm Lock is just such a .. .sigh.. it breaks the skill factor.

Edited by MavRCK, 10 February 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

For fear of incurring wrath here, I seem to remember the TT jump jets created a lot of heat. If jump-snipers were shutting down immediately after performing their miraculous, flying shots, they might do them a little less. Likewise for Spiders, Jenners, etc. Just make Jumping and Shooting at the same time come at a cost of heat.

[FactorlanP]

Now, if you had to hold your crosshair on a selected target for a period of time while your weapons "converged" that would be great.

That's what they originally wanted.

Which is why we have the useless "Pinpoint" skill in the Elite Mech Tree.

But it didn't take PGI long to discover that it simply doesn't work with the net coding that they have. The same problem that gives us unregistered hits now would also screw with the convergence that they originally intended.

Too bad too.

There could have been skills and modules to speed up convergence. Skilled players would be good at keeping the cross hair on the target while the guns converged.

Players with the skill to do it would be rewarded with pinpoint convergence.

Poptarts wouldn't have time to converge their guns before firing, making poptarts much less annoying.

I don't think they can do it in a Server Authoritative system, and a Client Authoritative system would just inspire all kinds of hack cheats.

Edited by FactorlanP, 10 February 2014 - 11:21 AM.

[Bagheera]

TygerLily, on 07 February 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

So, why don't you "ultrapilots" dominate in Medium mechs all day, everyday NOW?

And pretty much everyone in this thread who's whipped out their e-peen just got pancaking TOLD.

If you can't pull a positive W/L while pugging in a medium, I'm not impressed. Everything else is crutchwarrior online.

------------

Jocularity aside - just ******* fix JJs so that using 1 is pointless and that using the stock quanitity is the bare minimum for effectiveness. I mean seriously. It's been like this since closed beta - there was a minor change at one point but no build ever needs more than 2 JJs save for oddball spiders and such. How such a design flaw has stuck around is baffling to me.

[Victor Morson]

Bagheera, on 10 February 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

And pretty much everyone in this thread who's whipped out their e-peen just got pancaking TOLD.

No they didn't.

Bagheera, on 10 February 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

If you can't pull a positive W/L while pugging in a medium, I'm not impressed. Everything else is crutchwarrior online.

I had just two more words for you, and TygerLily:

SHADOW HAWK.

Edited by Victor Morson, 10 February 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

Tombstoner, on 10 February 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

an added layer for differentiating weapons is damage penetration for pulse lasers. The pulse is what lets them penetrate. let them do 10% of there damage to internals with no chance for extra damage but a chance for hitting equipment and you will quickly see brawlers using them as well as lights.

First: No. See Reason #2.

Second: Pulse Lasers do not 'Penetrate' or have any kind of 'Penetration Bonus'. They have a Damage bonus because the pulsing fire allows slag and vaporized armor particles to dissipate slightly in between hits, ensuring less energy is lost to these factors and more is delivered to the armor itself.

[IceSerpent]

FactorlanP, on 10 February 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Pinpoint convergence is the problem... You know, the fact that every weapon you mount hits EXACTLY the same spot... It requires no skill whatsoever.

Strictly speaking, it's not the convergence itself, but rather lack of balance between pinpoint weapons and weapons that spread damage in some way.

Quote

What if every weapon had its own crosshair, in the same pattern as they were mounted on the mech... Now for you to put all of your damage on the same spot, it would take great skill. You would have to chain fire, moving your aim after each shot.

That would require waaaaaay more skill than what we have now.

That can be easily defeated by a macro along the lines of fire weapon 1, move targeting point X pixels, fire weapon 2, move targeting point Y pixels, fire weapon 3, etc...and we'll be back to "it requires no skill" scenario.

[topgun505]

JJ heat worked as such:

1 heat per hex, with a minimum heat of 3.

So jump 8 hexes = 8 heat
Jump 1 hex = 3

For mechs mounting single heat sinks and energy weapons and jump jets this could be very significant.

For mechs mounting doubles it didn't matter quite as much (but still could be a factor).

Edited by topgun505, 10 February 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Bagheera]

Victor Morson, on 10 February 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

No they didn't.

Your sense of humor is broken.

But what do I know, I have better games in Hunches than in SHDs.

[FactorlanP]

IceSerpent, on 10 February 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

That can be easily defeated by a macro along the lines of fire weapon 1, move targeting point X pixels, fire weapon 2, move targeting point Y pixels, fire weapon 3, etc...and we'll be back to "it requires no skill" scenario.

I'm not convinced that you can write a macro that essentially moves your mouse, tracking a moving target, and actually be effective.

Edited by FactorlanP, 10 February 2014 - 12:29 PM.

[IceSerpent]

FactorlanP, on 10 February 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I'm not convinced that you can write a macro that essentially moves your mouse, tracking a moving target, and actually be effective.

Don't need to track anything, just move mouse a specified distance (distance between targeting reticles). I.e. if I have two reticles, one to the left and one to the right, I can use the left one for targeting and use macro to "move mouse left", then fire the weapon for the right reticle.

[Fajther]

I totally agree with the idea of a nerf that only effects mechs that carry one jj.

[Tombstoner]

DrxAbstract, on 10 February 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

First: No. See Reason #2.

Second: Pulse Lasers do not 'Penetrate' or have any kind of 'Penetration Bonus'. They have a Damage bonus because the pulsing fire allows slag and vaporized armor particles to dissipate slightly in between hits, ensuring less energy is lost to these factors and more is delivered to the armor itself.

And i say for the reasons you stated that a small amount of that damage might penetrate to damage internals because of its inherent efficiency at delivering damage to the armor.

[Lysander Voidrunner]

From a superficial glance at the thread, all the toaster strudels lost the ability to control of their bowels when Paul Inouye mentioned that he was going to nerf the Highlander. Of course their counter argument is that it takes skill to do it, a valid point of view, but also a moot point when you opposition doesn't have the luxury of flying through the air. But let's be honest for a second, the meta builds are perhaps fun to the people who look for the "win no matter what" option of hardcore MWO online players, but to the rest of us they are an imposed necessity, not an option. Of course, the further this is allowed to carry on, the more they will become S.O.P for every 'mech jock and in the end, 'mechs that don't have them will be relegated to second line units (a little like the Atlas is less and less present in 12 man drops because the Highlander and Victor outperform it in the Assault class). Which will ultimately render non JJ equipped platforms to be seen as less desirable... possibly impacting further hero mechs sales. Let's be honest here, it's all about money and if anything threatens that, it should be taken care of.

Edited by Lysander Voidrunner, 10 February 2014 - 02:16 PM.