Less is more with Clan mechs, however. Considering one M hardpoint can accommodate a C-LRM20 or C-SSRM6, even a single hardpoint can be the equivalent of several on an IS mech. I look forward to retrofitting the Warhawk Prime into a Warhawk Charlie, for example. 2 C-ERPPC and 2 C-LPLas, with each C-LPLas with upwards of 800 meters of range (!!!!!) is a glorious thing, and 23 DHS should be plenty to cool it.
8
Clan Hardpoints Posted, Err In Timber Wolf?
Started by Gas Guzzler, Feb 07 2014 10:09 AM
261 replies to this topic
#62
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Posted 07 February 2014 - 08:31 PM
That's true, although I'll have to wait and see the Clan weapon stats to pass judgement.
For example, on tabletop, the Clan ER Medium Laser is nearly equivalent to the IS Large Laser, doing just one point of damage less, while having the same range and weighing 1 ton instead of 5 tons. Now that's more for less!
For example, on tabletop, the Clan ER Medium Laser is nearly equivalent to the IS Large Laser, doing just one point of damage less, while having the same range and weighing 1 ton instead of 5 tons. Now that's more for less!
#63
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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:23 PM
Remember, the goal is to make the Clan mechs -equal to- but not -better than- the Inner Sphere mechs. The limited hardpoints and other restrictions are part of balancing the increased damage, range, and size reduction of Clan equipment. If the Clan mechs show any sort of noticeable advantage over the Inner Sphere designs in combat, they will be determined to be not working as intended, and the extra advantages removed.
Case in point, the Targeting Computer. If this remains solely a Clan item and it provides noticeable advantages over Inner Sphere combat performances, it will be considered too powerful and removed or nerfed until it no longer provides that advantage or the Inner Sphere mechs also have the option of mounting an equal item to it. A queue to help a pilot aim their weapons would be just such an unbalanced advantage. Instead, what I think is more likely is the Targetting Computer will allow something like the old version of Thermal Imaging, which was considered too good for general use but could be blocked the same as other thermal vision. Since the coding is already done for this, and the mode provides only slight advantages over normal Thermal vision, it -may- be acceptable for the tonnage used (testing would have to be done). Another option is that Targetting Computers will simply be placeholders like Command Consoles, intended to be used In some aspect of CW but useless until that aspect is introduced.
I personally think the devs are underestimating the power of Clan equipment, and we'll see many nerfs to them after they are released. The effect of a Clan Large Pulse laser doing the same damage as a PPC over even greater distances is only one aspect of the weapon. The reduction in critical spaces of Clan equipment and heat sinks that allows more of these to also be mounted and used is another part of the same equation. Put altogether, the only way Clan mechs are going to be put on even ground with the Inner Sphere is if Clan equipment performs below that of the Inner Sphere (to make up for larger numbers allowed for by Clan tech).
Case in point, the Targeting Computer. If this remains solely a Clan item and it provides noticeable advantages over Inner Sphere combat performances, it will be considered too powerful and removed or nerfed until it no longer provides that advantage or the Inner Sphere mechs also have the option of mounting an equal item to it. A queue to help a pilot aim their weapons would be just such an unbalanced advantage. Instead, what I think is more likely is the Targetting Computer will allow something like the old version of Thermal Imaging, which was considered too good for general use but could be blocked the same as other thermal vision. Since the coding is already done for this, and the mode provides only slight advantages over normal Thermal vision, it -may- be acceptable for the tonnage used (testing would have to be done). Another option is that Targetting Computers will simply be placeholders like Command Consoles, intended to be used In some aspect of CW but useless until that aspect is introduced.
I personally think the devs are underestimating the power of Clan equipment, and we'll see many nerfs to them after they are released. The effect of a Clan Large Pulse laser doing the same damage as a PPC over even greater distances is only one aspect of the weapon. The reduction in critical spaces of Clan equipment and heat sinks that allows more of these to also be mounted and used is another part of the same equation. Put altogether, the only way Clan mechs are going to be put on even ground with the Inner Sphere is if Clan equipment performs below that of the Inner Sphere (to make up for larger numbers allowed for by Clan tech).
#64
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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:55 PM
Pariah Devalis, on 07 February 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:
Could also set the convergence range to the distance of currently selected enemy mech as opposed to whatever the reticule is over.
cool idea but doubtful considering how already dominant pinpoint ranged builds can be.
maybe it lifts the lower arm actuator restriction on clan mechs mounting PPC/Gauss
though they probably havent even fleshed the idea out yet.
Maybe mechs who mount targeting computer get actual functional HSR lol.
Edited by Jin Ma, 07 February 2014 - 11:00 PM.
#65
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:19 AM
Odanan, on 07 February 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:
Excuse me, the LRMs are originally in the side torsos.
Many people posting here has "MW4" lore. Guys, MW4 (and MWLL) has nothing to do with the real stats of these mechs.
And again, the Timber Wolf has originally one MG in the side torso and the other in the CT.
BTW, PGI, you should inflate some hardpoint in some Clan mechs. Summoner with only 3 hardpoints? not good...
Many people posting here has "MW4" lore. Guys, MW4 (and MWLL) has nothing to do with the real stats of these mechs.
And again, the Timber Wolf has originally one MG in the side torso and the other in the CT.
BTW, PGI, you should inflate some hardpoint in some Clan mechs. Summoner with only 3 hardpoints? not good...
Yes, because destruction of my missile rack equals destruction of my side torso and arm. Totally makes sense.
#66
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:50 AM
Jakob Knight, on 07 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:
I think people needed to look at the mech they were buying before they did so.
As has been noted in the omnimech rules for MWO, Clan crit spaces for Endosteel and Ferrofibrous Armor will be fixed to their slotted location. Referrencing the placement of these in the original mech sheet for the Timberwolf yields the following facts:
1) The Center Torso has a single Endosteel slot allocated. This means no ballistic weapon except a Machine Gun will be possible in this location. Also, this location will be able to mount a BAP, due to the Clan model being only 1 critical.
2) Only two other configurations are being put in for the Timberwolf, not the four that were the baseline models. This will mean at least two configurations will not be in the game (which two are not known). It seems likely that, based on pod mounting, the best guesses are the B due to it's similarity to the C, and the A which might be possibly too close to the Prime.
3) The only configurations with Ballistic mounts in the arms are the B (Gauss Rifle) and C (UAC/5). As both of these use the Right arm to mount them and have a Ferrofibrous armor crit in them, and as the Prime RT has two Ferrofibrous and one Endosteel crit assigned, no Timberwolf will be capable of mounting more than a single UAC/20 or LB 20-X AC. Configurations with multiple ACs will most likely only be possible with one in the arm, one in the torso.
This does assume the Timber Wolf Prime retains its side torso ballistic mount for the Machine Gun there.
4) Nothing at all will be able to be placed in the legs due to all crits being assigned to Endosteel.
5) Nothing at all will be able to be placed in the Head, as the only slot there is allocated to Ferrofibrous.
6) Each side torso will only have seven critical spaces available for use (the rest occupied by Engine, Ferrofibrous, and Endosteel).
7) Unlike the Catapult, the Timber Wolf's missile pods are torso mounts, which will make this mech more vunerable to side torso destruction. It remains to be seen if it will retain the large cockpit hitbox of the Catapult in addition to this.
8) The Timber Wolf will always have 15 heat sinks at the minimum, which cannot be removed to lighten tonnage.
Since these are all based on the original material, they are subject to change by the way the Devs introduce various equipment and allocate the minimum crits in the Timber Wolf. However, it is likely the above can be counted on as a general overview of what owners of the Timber Wolf can expect when they attempt to modify the mech they receive to weapons mountings of their own choosing. If any and all of the above is unacceptable to you, then you should avoid hoping the Timber Wolf will be the mech you hope it will be to you.
My own two cents.
As has been noted in the omnimech rules for MWO, Clan crit spaces for Endosteel and Ferrofibrous Armor will be fixed to their slotted location. Referrencing the placement of these in the original mech sheet for the Timberwolf yields the following facts:
1) The Center Torso has a single Endosteel slot allocated. This means no ballistic weapon except a Machine Gun will be possible in this location. Also, this location will be able to mount a BAP, due to the Clan model being only 1 critical.
2) Only two other configurations are being put in for the Timberwolf, not the four that were the baseline models. This will mean at least two configurations will not be in the game (which two are not known). It seems likely that, based on pod mounting, the best guesses are the B due to it's similarity to the C, and the A which might be possibly too close to the Prime.
3) The only configurations with Ballistic mounts in the arms are the B (Gauss Rifle) and C (UAC/5). As both of these use the Right arm to mount them and have a Ferrofibrous armor crit in them, and as the Prime RT has two Ferrofibrous and one Endosteel crit assigned, no Timberwolf will be capable of mounting more than a single UAC/20 or LB 20-X AC. Configurations with multiple ACs will most likely only be possible with one in the arm, one in the torso.
This does assume the Timber Wolf Prime retains its side torso ballistic mount for the Machine Gun there.
4) Nothing at all will be able to be placed in the legs due to all crits being assigned to Endosteel.
5) Nothing at all will be able to be placed in the Head, as the only slot there is allocated to Ferrofibrous.
6) Each side torso will only have seven critical spaces available for use (the rest occupied by Engine, Ferrofibrous, and Endosteel).
7) Unlike the Catapult, the Timber Wolf's missile pods are torso mounts, which will make this mech more vunerable to side torso destruction. It remains to be seen if it will retain the large cockpit hitbox of the Catapult in addition to this.
8) The Timber Wolf will always have 15 heat sinks at the minimum, which cannot be removed to lighten tonnage.
Since these are all based on the original material, they are subject to change by the way the Devs introduce various equipment and allocate the minimum crits in the Timber Wolf. However, it is likely the above can be counted on as a general overview of what owners of the Timber Wolf can expect when they attempt to modify the mech they receive to weapons mountings of their own choosing. If any and all of the above is unacceptable to you, then you should avoid hoping the Timber Wolf will be the mech you hope it will be to you.
My own two cents.
This makes me sad :-( If the T-wolf works out this way that is, as I was most looking forward to having ballistic weapons in the arms. too much time MW4 maybe?
I really shouldn't,... but I was assuming PGI would make sure there was plenty of hard point options. Don't think I'll be getting that T-wolf anymore unless PGI diverge from the TT and care to give some more info some time soon.... Oh well you saved me $55 Jakob Knight!
#67
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:40 AM
Mike Getsome, on 08 February 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:
Yes, because destruction of my missile rack equals destruction of my side torso and arm. Totally makes sense.
The Timber Wolf is what it is. Get use to it.
Edited by Odanan, 08 February 2014 - 03:14 AM.
#68
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 04:07 AM
Blue Shadow, on 08 February 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:
I really shouldn't,... but I was assuming PGI would make sure there was plenty of hard point options. Don't think I'll be getting that T-wolf anymore unless PGI diverge from the TT and care to give some more info some time soon.... Oh well you saved me $55 Jakob Knight!
PGI's divergence from the TT is what is causing most of the problems here. You would normally be able to reconfigure your OmniMechs without being limited by hardpoints, just check out the canon configs here (use the variant box):
Timber Wolf/Mad Cat
I bet you won't be able to build things like the S and Pryde variants with PGI's customization system.
Also, a ton of people here don't have access to any recordsheets and whatnot, here's the stats for the other proposed mechs:
Dire Wolf/Daishi
Warhawk/Masakari
Summoner/Thor
Stormcrow/Ryoken
Nova/Black Hawk
Adder/Puma
Kit Fox/Uller
Don't get your hopes up when you see a set of hardpoints you like, Clan mechs are never going to be properly implemented because:
1. The mechlab gimmick broke the regular mechs by allowing too much customization without any drawbacks.
2. There are no restraints on tonnage, BV, tech level and Era settings.
3. Omnitech is designed for use in campaigns (refit inbetween missions), MWO is just a endless grind of singular missions.
4. Clans won't have any identity to them (honor point systems), everbody would just flock to the Clans without a proper reward/punishment system if they could grief Clan tech.
5. PGI doesn't care about point 1 to 4, they only want to sell mech packs.
#69
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 04:40 AM
Bet you guys who dropped 240 bucks on these nerfed clan mechs are happy, and especially you guys who actually got one of the StarKhan overgold mechs. I especially love all the speculation about hero mechs actually being from the lore, I mean other then the Yen lo and the pink people eater there really isn't much from lore already... could of done the Big Ben atlas, instead we got the golden pig...
Enjoy the "invasion" while you clanners drop in the same drop pool with all of us inner sphere scoundrels and we all fight for the hearts and minds of the cap zone people... best to just admit that this game will not be anything like what we'd of hoped and just admit that it'll be an arena shooter for a great long while. They may as well just throw in mixed tech and be done with it, I mean really when we complained about 3pv we heard how all the other Mechwarrior games had it, well... they all had mixed tech to...
Maybe we can add gold ammo while we're at it... I know gold gauss rifles that don't have a charge mechanic, and gold PPC's that travel faster and don't suffer from ghost heat... Gold SRM's that actually hit... So many ideas to monetize world of mechs am I right guys?
Hue hue, don't forget to grab deal on your way out folks lol lord knows I've done enough of it...
Enjoy the "invasion" while you clanners drop in the same drop pool with all of us inner sphere scoundrels and we all fight for the hearts and minds of the cap zone people... best to just admit that this game will not be anything like what we'd of hoped and just admit that it'll be an arena shooter for a great long while. They may as well just throw in mixed tech and be done with it, I mean really when we complained about 3pv we heard how all the other Mechwarrior games had it, well... they all had mixed tech to...
Maybe we can add gold ammo while we're at it... I know gold gauss rifles that don't have a charge mechanic, and gold PPC's that travel faster and don't suffer from ghost heat... Gold SRM's that actually hit... So many ideas to monetize world of mechs am I right guys?
Hue hue, don't forget to grab deal on your way out folks lol lord knows I've done enough of it...
#70
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:00 AM
FireSlade, on 07 February 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:
Aidan Pryde's Summoner was a Prime config nothing special about it. Not sure with Natasha Kerensky, but I would not be surprised if she had a custom Timber Wolf, since she was a bit of an odd ball. Diana's Warhawk, as Pariah Devalis mentioned, was different that it was a Warhawk Prime but it had JJs on it at her commanders orders (Aidan Pryde), along with several other mechs under his command, to allow for unconventional tactics. Problem is that the Clans had plenty of "heroes" but they often used regular configs so that all we may end up with for a Hero mech is a Prime or alt Config with a custom paint job and 30% cbill bonus; That seems a little boring to me.
Pryde's Timberwolf mounts Jump Jets. Do i have to say more?
Stormwolf, on 08 February 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:
PGI's divergence from the TT is what is causing most of the problems here. You would normally be able to reconfigure your OmniMechs without being limited by hardpoints, just check out the canon configs here (use the variant box):
Timber Wolf/Mad Cat
I bet you won't be able to build things like the S and Pryde variants with PGI's customization system.
Also, a ton of people here don't have access to any recordsheets and whatnot, here's the stats for the other proposed mechs:
Don't get your hopes up when you see a set of hardpoints you like, Clan mechs are never going to be properly implemented because:
1. The mechlab gimmick broke the regular mechs by allowing too much customization without any drawbacks.
2. There are no restraints on tonnage, BV, tech level and Era settings.
3. Omnitech is designed for use in campaigns (refit inbetween missions), MWO is just a endless grind of singular missions.
4. Clans won't have any identity to them (honor point systems), everbody would just flock to the Clans without a proper reward/punishment system if they could grief Clan tech.
5. PGI doesn't care about point 1 to 4, they only want to sell mech packs.
As usually, Stormwolf, you are immensely right. +1
I mean, will OmniMechs be really less customizable than standard BattleMechs? AND with nerfed weapons? I understand they have to change the weapons but they cannot just implement OmniMechs in the right way (or at least something similar) while
giving people freely and totally customizable BattleMechs! It should be quite the opposite.. Clan tech "flavor"anyone?
Well, i am still thankful they tried to stick close with the TT rules, but those swappable hardpoints instead of true OmniPods make very little sense, except that adapts to their 3-variants system (which does not make sense too: OmniMechs' configurations are basically the same chassis with different weapons, so..).
MrWhite, on 08 February 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:
well... they all had mixed tech to...
They were set in later eras as far as i know. Later than 3050 for sure.. In 3050 they did barely start to understand the Omni technology..
Edited by CyclonerM, 08 February 2014 - 05:02 AM.
#71
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:15 AM
In MWO the 5/8 (move/run) speed is not maxed at 86kph, but 81 (see the 55tonners already) and the 3/5 speed is not 53kph, but 47 (or something).
And I just leave this here:
This is for the OMNI-Mech variants as they are in TT.
Uller/Kit Fox
Puma/Adder
Nova/Black hawk
Stormcrow /Ryoken
Thor/Summoner
The Prime, A and C variants are all nearly the same.
From the looks of it, the best choices for the Thor might be to only use the Prime, B and D.
MadCat/Timberwolf
From the looks of it, the best choices for the MadCat have a lot more choices with all the variants. Only D and A are very close.
Warhawk/Masakari
Direwolf/Daishi
And I just leave this here:
This is for the OMNI-Mech variants as they are in TT.
Uller/Kit Fox
Spoiler
Puma/Adder
Spoiler
Nova/Black hawk
Spoiler
Stormcrow /Ryoken
Spoiler
Thor/Summoner
The Prime, A and C variants are all nearly the same.
Spoiler
From the looks of it, the best choices for the Thor might be to only use the Prime, B and D.
MadCat/Timberwolf
Spoiler
From the looks of it, the best choices for the MadCat have a lot more choices with all the variants. Only D and A are very close.
Warhawk/Masakari
Spoiler
Direwolf/Daishi
Spoiler
#72
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:17 AM
So that MG will be locked for the Prime configuration..
#73
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:20 AM
So, the package variants should be these:
Kit Fox = Prime, C and D;
Adder = Prime, ? and D;
Nova = Prime, B and ?;
Stormcrow = Prime, ? and ?
Summoner = Prime, B and D;
Timber Wolf = Prime, ? and D;
Warhawk = Prime, A and B;
Direwolf = Prime, A and B.
Kit Fox = Prime, C and D;
Adder = Prime, ? and D;
Nova = Prime, B and ?;
Stormcrow = Prime, ? and ?
Summoner = Prime, B and D;
Timber Wolf = Prime, ? and D;
Warhawk = Prime, A and B;
Direwolf = Prime, A and B.
Edited by Odanan, 08 February 2014 - 06:21 AM.
#74
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:27 AM
CyclonerM, on 08 February 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:
So that MG will be locked for the Prime configuration..
The ballistic hardpoint will be locked for sure.
About the weapon, we don't know (it shouldn't, because IS mechs don't have locked weapons)
#75
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:33 AM
Odanan, on 08 February 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:
The ballistic hardpoint will be locked for sure.
About the weapon, we don't know (it shouldn't, because IS mechs don't have locked weapons)
About the weapon, we don't know (it shouldn't, because IS mechs don't have locked weapons)
But Clan 'Mechs do. The flamer is fixed on the Adder for example..
#76
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:39 AM
The MG wont be locked, the hardpoint will (as you can't change the CT). That was at least my intention adding "locked" behind the CT MG.
All locked items are listed under the Basic variants. (like FF/Endo, DHS and JJ)
All locked items are listed under the Basic variants. (like FF/Endo, DHS and JJ)
Edited by Reno Blade, 08 February 2014 - 06:40 AM.
#77
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:46 AM
Reno Blade, on 08 February 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:
The MG wont be locked, the hardpoint will (as you can't change the CT). That was at least my intention adding "locked" behind the CT MG.
All locked items are listed under the Basic variants. (like FF/Endo, DHS and JJ)
All locked items are listed under the Basic variants. (like FF/Endo, DHS and JJ)
But.. But.. That flamer is supposed to be fixed, like the five JJs on the Summoner.
#78
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:04 AM
AFAIK, if the weapon appears in all listed variants, you can assume it's fixed. The MG is not part of all the Timber Wolf configurations, so is not fixed.
#79
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:13 AM
CyclonerM, on 08 February 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:
But Clan 'Mechs do. The flamer is fixed on the Adder for example..
It is fixed as the same way as AC/10 for CN9-A . The hardwired weapons for some the clan omni-mechs are not different then the weapons mounted on Battlemech , the difference is the unification of the connections in the omnipods and at all weapons couplings , so they can fit on any mech any pod with these unified couplings (aka all clan omni-pods ) .
#80
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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:13 AM
So Ghost Heat doesn't effect Clan mechs? 4 PPCs on the Warhawk stock? 12 ER Medium laser on the Nova with 22 double heat sinks? I hope this means the repeal of ghost heat for everyone is soon in our future.
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