143 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:

I agree, I just disagree that it isn't a good free mech for them to learn about it in. It's a good solid build and they learn that XL engines and LRMs aren't for brawling, same with vets as well. I think it will get better as new players and old alike learn on a free mech. They learn from their mistakes. When I see those mechs on my team I offer advice on how to use them "properly" and help out.
Are there better builds? Well sure, I'm not the best lurm guy in the world I'm much better with my energy boats so if I had my choice I'd have all 4 trials as energy boats with standard engines. That doesnt' mean those would be better or worse though. Also, as I said before, if it were their only option I might agree with you more. It isn't though so there's options other than that one particular mech.
There's just a lot of factors that go into it other than the fact that it carries XL engines. That seems to be the main complaint about it. So if a new player buys a hero mech and keeps XL engines in it they shouldn't use it or they should be deemed "bad"? (I'm not saying that's what you're getting at, just giving a different perspective)

Here's literally the same build, but at least, it's far more newbie friendly:
STK-3F©

ALRM15->ALRM10s for tonnage reallocation. XL310->STD275.

I've already improved the newbie's overall lifespan IN ADDITION to allowing the fire from the SRM sized tubes to be much more friendly and more effective vs AMS.

ALRM15 in arms -> 10, 5
ALRM15 in torso -> 6, 6, 3
ALRM10 in torso -> 6, 4

So, I've killed two birds with one stone and it's magically a better newbie mech, more "ghost heat" friendly, AND a stronger missile boat.

The only reason the XL engine is used is to make the MC cost GREATER than the 5S (I project PGI's Stalker Champion to cost around 4500MC). My version would easily cut it down, but it would "probably" survive more for newbies alike, and at least give them a reason to buy my version.

A vote would be good.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 February 2014 - 07:59 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Sandpit, on 07 February 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

No, no you don't. Neither do I. It may "likely" be anything, that's the point. You have absolutely no idea what a new player's skill level is going to be when they enter this game. based on normal statistics we can assume the majority are going to be "average" a few will be better and a few will be worse.
That still doesn't stop the fact that the average and above average players are going to stomp the below average new players while they climb up through (remember a 50 ELO max change per match under the best conditions) the elo brackets. That means the majority of new players will stomp on the minority low end players.
I'm not even counting the smurf accounts into that. That's purely based on a bell curve and where most players will fall statistically on average

This is why new players should start at the bottom of the ELO scale, the average and good players will soon rise up, the bad ones stay in the bad zone without being ROFLCOPTER food for the vets and average players they are currently grouped in with.

It will improve the new players initial game play experience there simply is no argument to that.

The question is weather there are enough concurrent users to make the system work, or is the current system of feeding newbies to sharks covering up the cracks in the playerbase across a 24hr period.
Given PGI's reluctance to actually make a system that is fair and makes sense for all levels of skill, i'd be worried that it's just not possible due to player numbers across the day.

Edited by DV McKenna, 08 February 2014 - 02:14 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

I found that as a newb its best to keep a setup with only two button fire. Say mouse one lasers mouse two ballistic for simplicity's sake. Better to concentrate on fire discipline and targeting just starting out. The more complex the weapons layout the harder to learn and easier to develop bad habits.

[627]

Mudhutwarrior, on 08 February 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

I found that as a newb its best to keep a setup with only two button fire. Say mouse one lasers mouse two ballistic for simplicity's sake. Better to concentrate on fire discipline and targeting just starting out. The more complex the weapons layout the harder to learn and easier to develop bad habits.

This is what I wanted to achieve with this. New players have to learn so much in this unforgiving game. The interface of the mech, hitboxes and what it means to aim at different parts, the movement of legs, torso, arms, the Heat management... Lance organisation, maps, communication, mwo slang (more important than you think) and all those little details that I forget now.

There's no need to put them in a complex and hard to master trial mech which have some serious flaws.

Like I said before, it is hard to fix the matchmaker which we all are fully aware of but it is easy to change a trial mech loadout. And there's no backlash for an existing champion mech like the other trials yet.

[Asakara]

May I suggest OP takes shots of all his matches over a few days, posts the screens, and then use maths to prove his point?

50+ pix + math = better anecdotal evidence than 1 pix + "cuz I sez so."

Example: http://mwomercs.com/...21#entry2798521

[Nick Makiaveli]

FactorlanP, on 07 February 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

If it was real life, I would agree with you. But PGI, and to a lesser extent us, have a vested interest in drawing and retaining as many new players as possible.

It is in all of our best interests to improve the new player experience. That's what I am interested in. I think most of you here are just wanting to argue for arguments sake...

I believe if you look back at what I said I believe that you will see that I did say we should encourage the ones that want to learn, and let the riffraff sink. I am fully aware that too few players means no game for the rest of us. But the ones that tell you to **** off when you explain that PPCs deal no damage at 20 meters, those need to go away till the other one drops.

FactorlanP, on 07 February 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

Yes, but removing obstacles for new player retention is never a bad thing.

Unless it causes more problems than it's worth. FYI, blanket statements are usually a bad thing.

I see all these posts about new players quitting, but since PGI isn't spending much time and energy on it, seems like it isn't a big deal. Seriously does no one read anymore? PGI extended the contract with MS to continue working with the Mechwarrior franchise.

Granted part of it is people paying the high prices for mechs etc, but hey, to each his own. And yes I am of them as the PP was cheap only when compared to the rest.

[TheRealPope478]

I have to agree that the trial stalker is NOT a good build for new players. Stalkers are not good with XLs and having a mech that suffers from ghost heat as a "training" mech is kind of silly. Even the trigger set is not new player friendly. It has the 4 medium lasers split into 2 groups, but all 4 LRM 15s tied to one key. Then tag is on mouse key 4 if I remember right.

They need to drop the XL for sure and drop 2 of those LRM 15s to LRM 5s to avoid the ghost heat and linked LRM heat.

Since we are talking about trial mechs I think the dragon build is not new player friendly either. They should make it have a standard engine and AC 10. Dealing with charge time on a gauss while trying to learn to walk and shoot just to get shoulder tapped by a meta highlander would not be fun.

[Deathlike]

TheRealPope478, on 08 February 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

Since we are talking about trial mechs I think the dragon build is not new player friendly either. They should make it have a standard engine and AC 10. Dealing with charge time on a gauss while trying to learn to walk and shoot just to get shoulder tapped by a meta highlander would not be fun.

The Dragon build is OK, but nothing great. The Gauss charge nerf/addition has reduced its effectiveness slightly, but it was the true community approved build (unlike the following Champions - of which I have zero clue where they got their votes/ideas from) via a community/PGI contest.

[Abivard]

That stalker is not a good beginners mech, it is set up to fall prey to ghost heat after all, and no mention of ghost heat is likely to have reached a new players ear's.

But if someone knows what they are doing, it is one of the best trial mechs I have seen them add.

Any LRM boat that gets caught in a brawl is in trouble, xl or no xl.

If the stalker lrm is not in a brawl, the odds of taking side torso hits are rare.

It is really a rather nice stalker LRM build, not the best but not bad either.

[Reitrix]

Deathlike, on 07 February 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

It is everything to do with it making the mech a newbie death trap.

Wait .... You mean like ... Stock 'Mechs?

A newbie in a Champion build stands a better chance than a newbie in a stock loadout.

[BillyM]

Abivard, on 09 February 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

That stalker is not a good beginners mech, it is set up to fall prey to ghost heat after all, and no mention of ghost heat is likely to have reached a new players ear's.

But if someone knows what they are doing, it is one of the best trial mechs I have seen them add.

Any LRM boat that gets caught in a brawl is in trouble, xl or no xl.

If the stalker lrm is not in a brawl, the odds of taking side torso hits are rare.

It is really a rather nice stalker LRM build, not the best but not bad either.

Actually one of the worst trial mechs added recently.

Cicada and Dragon and downright usable, Spider isn't terrible (thanks hitbox), though the Highlander not great for me.

Trials only:
SPIDER SDR-5K 27 12 15 0.80 43 16 2.69 8,809
CICADA CDA-2A 96 47 49 0.96 191 59 3.24 36,468
DRAGON DRG-5N 71 35 36 0.97 106 42 2.52 29,098
STALKER STK-3F 18 11 7 1.57 16 9 1.78 6,859

--billyM

Edited by BillyM, 10 February 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[wanderer]

Funny you should say that. I sat down in one, and: STALKER STK-3F 3 2 1 2.00 3 1 3.00 1,251

A few rounds in the thing and I did great. What it is for newbies is terrible, since the weak points are precisely the worst ones for a new player. Newbies are bad with LRM boats and bad with 'Mechs that choke when group fired. The Stalker is both at once.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 10 February 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Funny you should say that. I sat down in one, and: STALKER STK-3F 3 2 1 2.00 3 1 3.00 1,251

A few rounds in the thing and I did great. What it is for newbies is terrible, since the weak points are precisely the worst ones for a new player. Newbies are bad with LRM boats and bad with 'Mechs that choke when group fired. The Stalker is both at once.

So a new player shouldn't use an XL engine? Or just in this particular build?

[Bagheera]

Sandpit, on 10 February 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

So a new player shouldn't use an XL engine? Or just in this particular build?

New players shouldn't use an XL in a Stalker:

-- Too slow and straight-jacketed to make good use of an XL's mobility advantage - which is lost on a new player for the most part anyway.

-- Way too easy to focus on the side torsos of a Stalker, and for a new player that makes it extra harder to protect the XL.

-- Any XL stalker is going to need to coordinate with buddies for protection, compounding the difficulty for new players.

-- The above all combines for a very early and ugly death for a newbie in an XL Stalker, frustrating the newbie, wasting the assault tonnage/firepower, and frustrating the rest of the team.

Last time I was on, I solo'd one with a -4J hunchback ... with SRMs. I almost got a second one in the same match, but he had more friends than I thought, and my backup never showed.

Edited by Bagheera, 10 February 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bagheera, on 10 February 2014 - 02:51 PM, said:

New players shouldn't use an XL in a Stalker:

-- Too slow and straight-jacketed to make good use of an XL's mobility advantage - which is lost on a new player for the most part anyway.

-- Way too easy to focus on the side torsos of a Stalker, and for a new player that makes it extra harder to protect the XL.

-- Any XL stalker is going to need to coordinate with buddies for protection, compounding the difficulty for new players.

-- The above all combines for a very early and ugly death for a newbie in an XL Stalker, frustrating the newbie, wasting the assault tonnage/firepower, and frustrating the rest of the team.

Last time I was on, I solo'd one with a -4J hunchback ... with SRMs. I almost got a second one in the same match, but he had more friends than I thought, and my backup never showed.

So a new player who goes out and buys a Stalker and drops an XL engine in it as their first purchase should do what?

[Bagheera]

Sandpit, on 10 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

So a new player who goes out and buys a Stalker and drops an XL engine in it as their first purchase should do what?

They should be prepared to have a fairly bad time until they figure out how to make it work, at which point they're not really a "new" player anymore.

Look, I get it. You love XL Stalkers, and in experienced, coordinated hands they dish out the pain. So does a fast/high damage./short range Hunchback under the same conditions, but that doesn't make it a good build for a new player.

Edited by Bagheera, 10 February 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bagheera, on 10 February 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

They should be prepared to have a fairly bad time until they figure out how to make it work, at which point they're not really a "new" player anymore.

Look, I get it. You love XL Stalkers, and in experienced, coordinated hands they dish out the pain. So does a fast/high damage./short range Hunchback under the same conditions, but that doesn't make it a good build for a new player.

No, I was just pointing out that they can learn them and start to learn about how to handle them and what their downsides are BEFORE they drop their cash down on them and then get frustrated while locked into a mech they don't enjoy using without having the money to purchase and build another mech until they've earned a little more money.

[wanderer]

Quote

So a new player shouldn't use an XL engine? Or just in this particular build?

Note, I didn't even mention the XL.

The newbie Stalker takes some real discipline on fire control- it is very easy to groupfire itself into shutdown and loss of missile tracking, for example. Yeah, they also tend to soak up side torso damage, but the LRMs help mitigate this.

It's watching people easily pushing the things into repeated shutdowns and scoring horrible damage that makes me wince. Even a 20/5/20/5 launcher setup would have put less pressure on the heat sinks.

[Thrudvangar]

in my opinion the trail stalker was/is a bad idea... no matter if they're played by experienced or new players.. there is no real fight/brawl going on anymore, you only see A LOT of rockets flying from one end to the other end of the map.. beside all the other heavy and assaultmechs who carry LRMs anyway because they are afraid to die and cowards who standing still at their respawn point and just pushing their LRM fire buttons.... i see that in every ******* game i play.

just standing there and launch one missile salve after the other. AMS doesn't work because there are MASSES of missiles incoming from all over the map.

i started playing this game 3 or 4 weeks ago and it was fun... until now. getting your medium wrecked everytime by enemies you dont even see or be able to fire back at them just sucks and takes thefun out of the game. One fast light wich locks you is enough and you'll have 100 missiles incoming.

i always try to dodge them behind buildings, mountains or whatever but i also have to fight and re-position against other mediums or lights wich dont carry LRMs and if i do switch position... bamm.. "Warning Incoming Missiles" "Warning Incoming Missiles" "Warning Incoming Missiles" "Warning Incoming Missiles" "Warning Incoming Missiles"

aaaaall day long... Dunno what to do against it, its just terrible for me to play right now.

[Mister Blastman]

Stelar 7, on 07 February 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

BS.

The Stalker is one of the best mechs to learn XL engine in. Torsos are harder to hit. A Cat 3d would be mean.. but an XL Stalker is fine.

And steering wheels are great in this game, too. My mech is a Ferrari I tell you!




Friends don't let friends use XL in Stalkers. Not a good idea. Not at all.