74 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 March 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

Unless Smurfy is off his game, I see PPCs at 10 heat 10 damage still. That IS a PPCs stats. They are working as intended in MWO Firing way to fast for the sinks to keep up.

ERPPC good sir....

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

ERPPC good sir....

ER PPC 15 heat 10 damage, as it has been for decades for IS ER PPC. Nothing to see nothing to change on the weapon. Sink efficiency is another story though.

[Koniving]

Imperius, on 09 February 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

PPC does 10 DMG
1) Reduce heat back to normal values.
2) Remove minimum distance. (Allow us to toggle the minimum distance on/off with the risk of inflicting damage to the PPC)

3) PPC will do [+6] DMG to targeted point [+2] or [+4] to adjacent hit boxes.

Ex you hit the Left Arm [+6] DMG to the arm [+4] DMG to the left side torso.
Ex you hit CT [+6] DMG to CT [+2] to LTorso and RTorso.

How to explain this to make sense? It's electricity and metal conducts electricity so it would spread across the mech and nerf all PPC alphas while still keeping the weapon useful and good. Also brings the stat values back to canon numbers.

[x] = subject to change

1) PPC heat is at normal values. Previous values were NOT normal.
2) Being able to flip off the capacitor to fire PPCs at close range at personal risk would be nice.
3) PGI tried this. Russ even mentioned it back in NGNG 38 a year ago. The plan fell through. It wound up making the PPC do excess of 20 damage. They can't fix the splash multiplier thing without it ultimately destroying missiles. It was finally tossed aside, reasons: "We'd have to rebuild the game from the ground up" to make a working PPC splash without destroying missiles entirely.

A simpler fix is to not be pinpoint.

But the problem isn't with the PPC itself. It's with our threshold that allows using them so frequently. Threshold is meant to be 30. PPC is meant to have 10 heat. 3 PPCs = shutdown. 2 PPCs is 66.66% heat, and over time you cool off. 1 PPC is 33.33% heat. But our thresholds go up to 88.6 for inner sphere mechs still totting a PPC, and clan mechs can reach nearly 120 threshold with MWO's system.

Although the real problem is actually how autocannons compliment PPCs in pinpoint.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 March 2014 - 08:50 AM, said:

ER PPC 15 heat 10 damage, as it has been for decades for IS ER PPC. Nothing to see nothing to change on the weapon. Sink efficiency is another story though.

shh its not batteltech.

They have increased the heat dramatically since its onset. I believe is used to be 12. Now its 15. They dont need to use battletech numbers to balance this game. Actually thats probly a very bad idea.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

shh its not batteltech.

They have increased the heat dramatically since its onset. I believe is used to be 12. Now its 15. They dont need to use battletech numbers to balance this game. Actually thats probly a very bad idea.

It is the BattleTech universe, So some things should be followed. It was 15, then dropped to 12 then raised beck to 15 again. They don't really use CBT numbers to begin with, if they did we wouldn't have so much trouble. A Mechs fires and a few seconds later its sinks have scrubbed the heat and it fires again. Put simply if they did heat More like TT we could fire with more stability and less stupid over heating.

[Varent]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 March 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

It is the BattleTech universe, So some things should be followed. It was 15, then dropped to 12 then raised beck to 15 again. They don't really use CBT numbers to begin with, if they did we wouldn't have so much trouble. A Mechs fires and a few seconds later its sinks have scrubbed the heat and it fires again. Put simply if they did heat More like TT we could fire with more stability and less stupid over heating.

Because making it less about tactics and cooling down and more about holding down the trigger non stop is an amazing idea for a tactical shooter. (sarcasm)

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Because making it less about tactics and cooling down and more about holding down the trigger non stop is an amazing idea for a tactical shooter. (sarcasm)

How you shoot is a tactical decision.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 12:51 AM, said:

actually kinda feel that in a competitive shooting game you shouldn't put in things that lower overall skill cap and take away the need for players to use evasive maneuvers and torso twisting more. There are plenty of ways to avoid damage in this game if you play smart. Also if you want fun, you probly should consider adding more options instead of just changing something other people enjoy.

How does forcing people to hold their aim steady for longer than .0001 secs take AWAY from the skill gap? I can't fathom how this seems to be an accepted answer to people? lasers take more skill (put the reticle on the desired point to be damaged and keep it there for the beam duration) to do the same damage to a single component as a ppc or AC. I'm pretty sure i can state that as a fact haha. And I'm not saying the burst fire for an AC/5 will last half the cooldown time, I was thinking something like 10-20% + or - and work from there. Obviously reduce the cooldown by the same amount so dps is not nerfed. Basically so it isn't as much a sniper or JJ weapon and works better in brawling/optimum ranges.

[Imperius]

Koniving, on 05 March 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

1) PPC heat is at normal values. Previous values were NOT normal.
2) Being able to flip off the capacitor to fire PPCs at close range at personal risk would be nice.
3) PGI tried this. Russ even mentioned it back in NGNG 38 a year ago. The plan fell through. It wound up making the PPC do excess of 20 damage. They can't fix the splash multiplier thing without it ultimately destroying missiles. It was finally tossed aside, reasons: "We'd have to rebuild the game from the ground up" to make a working PPC splash without destroying missiles entirely.

A simpler fix is to not be pinpoint.

But the problem isn't with the PPC itself. It's with our threshold that allows using them so frequently. Threshold is meant to be 30. PPC is meant to have 10 heat. 3 PPCs = shutdown. 2 PPCs is 66.66% heat, and over time you cool off. 1 PPC is 33.33% heat. But our thresholds go up to 88.6 for inner sphere mechs still totting a PPC, and clan mechs can reach nearly 120 threshold with MWO's system.

Although the real problem is actually how autocannons compliment PPCs in pinpoint.

There isn't a game to reprogram at this point. What they have would take a normal developer a couple of months to build. -The mechs but the actual game itself is pretty close to the same as beta so to re-write it would be of no loss...

[Varent]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 05 March 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

How does forcing people to hold their aim steady for longer than .0001 secs take AWAY from the skill gap? I can't fathom how this seems to be an accepted answer to people? lasers take more skill (put the reticle on the desired point to be damaged and keep it there for the beam duration) to do the same damage to a single component as a ppc or AC. I'm pretty sure i can state that as a fact haha. And I'm not saying the burst fire for an AC/5 will last half the cooldown time, I was thinking something like 10-20% + or - and work from there. Obviously reduce the cooldown by the same amount so dps is not nerfed. Basically so it isn't as much a sniper or JJ weapon and works better in brawling/optimum ranges.

*Answer*

Lasers (due to there other bonuses) have a spreading mechanic. Autocannon (due to there other negatives) do not.

Making a weapon burst damage adds a spreading mechanic. Hitting a moving target while you are moving generally will spread damage.

Torso twisting is another way to help spread damage. If you take damage in one area you can twist to help increase your health by making an opponent target somewhere else.

This is how as a player you can force an opponent to spread his damage. It adds to the skill cap of the game. Good players are very amazing at this skill.

Making all weapons have burst and spreads takes away from the overall skill cap by forcing you to have to turn less since there will already be a natural spread.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

*Answer*

Lasers (due to there other bonuses) have a spreading mechanic. Autocannon (due to there other negatives) do not.

Making a weapon burst damage adds a spreading mechanic. Hitting a moving target while you are moving generally will spread damage.

Torso twisting is another way to help spread damage. If you take damage in one area you can twist to help increase your health by making an opponent target somewhere else.

This is how as a player you can force an opponent to spread his damage. It adds to the skill cap of the game. Good players are very amazing at this skill.

Making all weapons have burst and spreads takes away from the overall skill cap by forcing you to have to turn less since there will already be a natural spread.

Or by allowing those with a steady hand and good aim to continue to deal more of the damage to the target location they wanted than those with twitch reactions but can't stay on target, it adds a skill gap that is different from the typical CoD style "skill" gap that most fps end up with.

It's always more fun (as in total fun felt by both parties) when people gradually get whittled down and start losing weapon systems before dying, rather than just getting ganked by a LT/RT xl death at 80% integrity because a team of pop tarts got lucky and hit one or two alphas into the torso and blew it up or put it in critical damage without even having a real chance to retaliate. Even if I lost, but made it to <40% health before being taken down I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS prefer that to getting a torso put into red internals before getting a handful of shots off. Even if I survive the match I had to hide behind cover and teammates the whole match without being able to risk exposure for fear of getting killed by a stray laser and am able to contribute much less. I feel dirty every time I kill an ilya or other xl-heavy mech with yellow armor almost everywhere but that one exposed torso because i know how stupid and lame it feels to have it happen to me.

It just feels like it cheapens the experience of playing as a gigantic lumbering mech when they fall over after two-three "shots" even if it did take a bit of skill to make those shots hit the same spot. I mean why even play mechwarrior if the one of the major mechanics unique to it (component destruction without full death) doesn't even come into play very often? Just stick to Halo or CoD if you want low TTK precision shooters. I prefer big stompy robots ripping each other apart limb from limb before finally collapsing in a big smoldering heap!

[Varent]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 05 March 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

Or by allowing those with a steady hand and good aim to continue to deal more of the damage to the target location they wanted than those with twitch reactions but can't stay on target, it adds a skill gap that is different from the typical CoD style "skill" gap that most fps end up with.

It's always more fun (as in total fun felt by both parties) when people gradually get whittled down and start losing weapon systems before dying, rather than just getting ganked by a LT/RT xl death at 80% integrity because a team of pop tarts got lucky and hit one or two alphas into the torso and blew it up or put it in critical damage without even having a real chance to retaliate. Even if I lost, but made it to <40% health before being taken down I ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS prefer that to getting a torso put into red internals before getting a handful of shots off. Even if I survive the match I had to hide behind cover and teammates the whole match without being able to risk exposure for fear of getting killed by a stray laser and am able to contribute much less. I feel dirty every time I kill an ilya or other xl-heavy mech with yellow armor almost everywhere but that one exposed torso because i know how stupid and lame it feels to have it happen to me.

It just feels like it cheapens the experience of playing as a gigantic lumbering mech when they fall over after two-three "shots" even if it did take a bit of skill to make those shots hit the same spot. I mean why even play mechwarrior if the one of the major mechanics unique to it (component destruction without full death) doesn't even come into play very often? Just stick to Halo or CoD if you want low TTK precision shooters. I prefer big stompy robots ripping each other apart limb from limb before finally collapsing in a big smoldering heap!

Why is this more fun? I think that's an opinion not a statement of fact. Many people are thrill seekers that love adrenaline rushes and live for quick violent furious action that may feel like a life time but take only seconds. There is a reason why so many shooting games out there reward you for a 'headshot' and often have big huge words flashing across the screens these days. Its because its exciting and invigorating. I don't think this game needs to be super slow paced and laborious to be a thinking mans shooter or to be a very tactical game. It already is tactical. If I want slow and laborious id play eve. 9 hours to kill a space station... yay.... (sarcasm)

[Mavairo]

Nauht, on 09 February 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

Congratulations! You have now suggested an indirect nerf to light and some medium mechs as most (read: ALL unless you're running an AC20) as they're the most common mechs to run XL's.
As an assault player I wouldn't mind this at all, but I know the reaction if lights now had a choice of being slower or taking more damage from splash damage from one of the most popular weapons in game.

I fail to see how this will really Nerf things like the Jenner considering 2 PPCs and an AC10 round hitting their FRESH ST can keel them right over in one salvo.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Why is this more fun? I think that's an opinion not a statement of fact. Many people are thrill seekers that love adrenaline rushes and live for quick violent furious action that may feel like a life time but take only seconds. There is a reason why so many shooting games out there reward you for a 'headshot' and often have big huge words flashing across the screens these days. Its because its exciting and invigorating. I don't think this game needs to be super slow paced and laborious to be a thinking mans shooter or to be a very tactical game. It already is tactical. If I want slow and laborious id play eve. 9 hours to kill a space station... yay.... (sarcasm)

Like I said, go play CoD or Halo if you want your "HEASHOT!!!" kicks. This is the only non-mmo I know of that can have greater than 10 sec TTK in a close range 1 on 1 and I want it to stay that way, and i'm pretty sure i am far from alone. I guarantee you if they put a poll at the login page of the the game client that you had to vote in in order to start playing, a majority of players would want more games where damage is spread instead of sniped out engines or cockpits being the main way to die.

And who said anything about super slow combat, putting burst fire and splash to counter pinpoint damage would only give similar TTK as lasers and i don't think i have seen many 9 hour laser slug fests, but maybe i'm wrong... The thing is there can be something called a "middle ground" where ACs still do mostly pinpoint damage if used that their optimum ranges but spread out if used while going fast, falling, or fighting agile opponents that know how to torso twist.

If you spread the AC's damage over .05 secs of firing it wouldn't make much of a difference to the weapon, but putting the same damage over a full second vastly changes it's ability to concentrate damage. I'm not talking about making ACs exactly like lasers or pulse lasers, but spreading the damage over several bullets also allows for things like recoil and weapon sway to affect accuracy without making it and all or nothing miss. Say if the ac/5 shot 5 bullets over .2 seconds, it wouldn't be that hard to keep all that damage in one spot in a brawl, but some bullets might splash into other components in a sniper fight or while JJ twisting.

It can also allow for some natural spread via recoil without pissing people off as badly. The spread would be neglible up to 300m, maybe splash one or two shots gently off-target at 600m. It could also mean you hit a couple shots in that light's leg instead of missing all of it. It also rewards fast torso twisting speed and reactions against ballistic toting mechs instead of the undeniably vast advantage that has over lasers in a brawl.

It's called trying out numbers and testing to find a good fit and compromise between both worlds. It's not some magical all or nothing switch... There CAN be a compromise that works to where it won't kill off any play styles but simply makes them require a similar amount of skill to other play styles to be as effective as they are now.

Edited by Tw1stedMonkey, 06 March 2014 - 12:01 AM.

[Varent]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 06 March 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

Like I said, go play CoD or Halo if you want your "HEASHOT!!!" kicks. This is the only non-mmo I know of that can have greater than 10 sec TTK in a close range 1 on 1 and I want it to stay that way, and i'm pretty sure i am far from alone. I guarantee you if they put a poll at the login page of the the game client that you had to vote in in order to start playing, a majority of players would want more games where damage is spread instead of sniped out engines or cockpits being the main way to die.

And who said anything about super slow combat, putting burst fire and splash to counter pinpoint damage would only give similar TTK as lasers and i don't think i have seen many 9 hour laser slug fests, but maybe i'm wrong... The thing is there can be something called a "middle ground" where ACs still do mostly pinpoint damage if used that their optimum ranges but spread out if used while going fast, falling, or fighting agile opponents that know how to torso twist.

If you spread the AC's damage over .05 secs of firing it wouldn't make much of a difference to the weapon, but putting the same damage over a full second vastly changes it's ability to concentrate damage. I'm not talking about making ACs exactly like lasers or pulse lasers, but spreading the damage over several bullets also allows for things like recoil and weapon sway to affect accuracy without making it and all or nothing miss. Say if the ac/5 shot 5 bullets over .2 seconds, it wouldn't be that hard to keep all that damage in one spot in a brawl, but some bullets might splash into other components in a sniper fight or while JJ twisting.

It can also allow for some natural spread via recoil without pissing people off as badly. The spread would be neglible up to 300m, maybe splash one or two shots gently off-target at 600m. It could also mean you hit a couple shots in that light's leg instead of missing all of it. It also rewards fast torso twisting speed and reactions against ballistic toting mechs instead of the undeniably vast advantage that has over lasers in a brawl.

It's called trying out numbers and testing to find a good fit and compromise between both worlds. It's not some magical all or nothing switch... There CAN be a compromise that works to where it won't kill off any play styles but simply makes them require a similar amount of skill to other play styles to be as effective as they are now.

I agree there are a lot of things that can be done. However quick reaction time and good aim will and should always be rewarded (ie - twitch shooter cod style). The only way you can take this away is to literally slow the game down to the point that you truly make things sluggish and hard to actually maneuver the cross hairs, at wich point you would indeed lose a lot of the fun factor (imho)

[mekabuser]

there are multiple ways it could be done, most involving reducing damage and or spreading it as OP said, but it would also be nice if the weapon imparted HEAT to the target. Idk if it already does, i cant say ive noticed that, but it certainly should.
iow, if you got focused and hit by say 7 ppcs over a 20 second span, your mechs heat should be somewhere around 70% of threshold.

[Alex Warden]

Black Arachne, on 09 February 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

Seriously, the more I play this game the more I find myself playing Battletech instead with my friends.

Thanks for that PGI - not sarcasm - BT is just better

meeting with friends playing a strategic board game > playing an arcadish shooter? you don´t say

[Varent]

Alex Warden, on 06 March 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

meeting with friends playing a strategic board game > playing an arcadish shooter?

I like both myself, depends on my mood. I like the differentiation though with that in mind. If I want BT, I play BT, If I want an intense fast paced mech based shooting game with a BT feel I play mwo.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Varent, on 06 March 2014 - 12:28 AM, said:

I agree there are a lot of things that can be done. However quick reaction time and good aim will and should always be rewarded (ie - twitch shooter cod style). The only way you can take this away is to literally slow the game down to the point that you truly make things sluggish and hard to actually maneuver the cross hairs, at wich point you would indeed lose a lot of the fun factor (imho)

Have you played a laser mech? Still requires skillful aiming, still kills fairly quickly, but unless you have an aimbot-like aim, it doesn't all go to one location. It is however still possible for a skilled pilot in a grounded mech to put all of that damage in one location on something like an atlas. Even ER LL snipers can reasonable keep the damage to mostly one location if the enemy pilot does not use evasive tactics. The same cannot be said about something like dual gauss. No matter how good a pilot is at torso twisting and evasion tactics, if the dual gauss pilot shoots at the right moment is will still cripple that one. Pinpoint damage severely reduces the effectiveness of opposing pilot skill into the damage equation. Maybe you just don't like having counters to your play style?

[Varent]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 06 March 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Have you played a laser mech? Still requires skillful aiming, still kills fairly quickly, but unless you have an aimbot-like aim, it doesn't all go to one location. It is however still possible for a skilled pilot in a grounded mech to put all of that damage in one location on something like an atlas. Even ER LL snipers can reasonable keep the damage to mostly one location if the enemy pilot does not use evasive tactics. The same cannot be said about something like dual gauss. No matter how good a pilot is at torso twisting and evasion tactics, if the dual gauss pilot shoots at the right moment is will still cripple that one. Pinpoint damage severely reduces the effectiveness of opposing pilot skill into the damage equation. Maybe you just don't like having counters to your play style?

you know I was actually working on typing out about a 3 paragraph response and then I wonderered why im waisting my time trying to explain myself to a person online. They each have there balance. Lack of CW is extenuating some of the weaknesses of laser weapons. Having some FLD weapons allows for different play styles to emerge and be prevalent, completely taking them away does nothing but eliminate options and drive away players. If you dont like the mechanics of a shooting game then dont play a shooting game. I hear with several expansions BT can be very fun if you want a good BT experience seek it there and let others have a good shooting MW experience.

Edited by Varent, 06 March 2014 - 03:16 PM.