131 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 12:03 PM, said:

'you're no longer required here...' or 'the company has evolved beyond you.'

That said, those excuses do fit PGI. I hope the conversation went like this:

"We realized you're title is Community Manager and we here at PGI are all about ignoring community. We pride ourselves in our inability to listen or even speak without coming off insulting in twitter posts, and well, we just have no need for anyone to manage the community anymore. We've always got mods to silence it, but we don't care much these days because.. again.. we don't care at all about them. Have a good life."

EDIT: That said, thank you PGI for spending the 60 seconds to fix pulse lasers finally. It is very appreciated. Could I ask that you go one mile more and spend 60 seconds next patch lowering the ghost heat limit on Large Lasers and AC/2s at least? Or if you aren't willing to do that, perhaps, upping the SRM velocity a little? Please don't make us wait 3 months again..

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 February 2014 - 12:46 PM.

[Utilyan]

I come from a sinister alternate universe where they shut down all the forums for "negativity". Cause the thin-skin "suits" could not handle it and didn't comprehend how gamers, whiners and forums works.


We should consider where do we meet if it goes down? tactics forums? red? youtube? xD

Edited by Utilyan, 19 February 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Garth didn't deserved to be fired. It didn't seem to me that PGI needed/wanted him anymore for whatever reason. It's PGI's decision so you have to take it for what it's worth.

I did not like Garth. If you ever had to question his understanding of this game or its mechanics, he was an abyss/black hole. I've cited things in the past (Garth did not know how 2 ERPPCs at the height of the PPC meta could be cooled with both Coolant modules). He has to play more than a Cicada to understand what's wrong with the game.

For the most part, what he least on the surface "tried" to do, I'm sure went deaf on the PGI upper management ears. I do believe he tried to get some changes or stuff passed upwards (to Paul, Russ, Bryan, and all) but let's be honest... very minimal to my knowledge got changed. Even the Raven engine buff that he "claimed" was in the pipeline came AFTER the debut of the Locust... and that buff was still NOT ENOUGH to make the Raven-2X an OK mech (it's still an inferior Jenner-K).

In sum, he wasn't really the problem @ PGI, nor the solution to figure out PGI's problems with its community. He wasn't a bad person, but he also wasn't helpful for the game (seriously, Cicadas are generally eaten alive by Jenners and he couldn't quite understand why). On the surface, his departure is more or less inconsequential, because the problems @ PGI are at the top, and not with Garth. Garth is simply a symptom of said problem.

Which is what, your precious ideas being implemented? You don't have any idea why your ideas aren't implemented, and you have absolutely no intellectually honest way to translate that into ANY judgment of the upper management.

And the REASON you don't have any idea why your ideas aren't implemented is because...no communication.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Livewyr, on 19 February 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

(stuff)

One edit on seeing your most recent post: the PGI exec staff themselves (Russ and Paul) read the forums directly and see the issues first hand..if they won't budge at community outrage (3PV, ECM, Ghost Heat) what amount of weight can anyone hold to that?

This Snap shot of Russ not knowing about one of the most vocalized problems of UI2.0 FOR TWO WEEKS would like to have a word with you...

http://tinypic.com/v...=8#.UwUedvldV2E

[Ashnod]

Poptimus Rhyme, on 19 February 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

This Snap shot of Russ not knowing about one of the most vocalized problems of UI2.0 FOR TWO WEEKS would like to have a word with you...

http://tinypic.com/v...=8#.UwUedvldV2E

LOL

[FactorlanP]

Poptimus Rhyme, on 19 February 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

This Snap shot of Russ not knowing about one of the most vocalized problems of UI2.0 FOR TWO WEEKS would like to have a word with you...

http://tinypic.com/v...=8#.UwUedvldV2E

Ya... This just boggles the mind and pretty much proves that the "Feedback" threads are mostly just a dumping ground where they funnel everything the community dislikes so it is easier to ignore.

Somebody should tweet a link to the UI2.0 Feedback Thread to Russ... If he gets it in a tweet, maybe he will actually read it by accident.

Edited by FactorlanP, 19 February 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Jabilo]

Victor,

The fact you have the time and inclination to write so many words effectively bad mouthing some guy who (may have) lost his job is bizarre.

The reality is that no one here has the slightest idea of why he left, how good he was at his job or any other details of his employment at PGI.

He is a human being though, so I hope wherever he is and whatever he is up to he is getting by and providing for himself and his family.

[Helmer]

Deux, on 19 February 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well considering until his post russ hasn't posted anything since February 4th, bryan ekman hasn't been seen since January, I would say that you still do need a community rep. To say you've grown beyond it seems like they just want us to shut up and drink the kool aid .

The post from Russ states "Unfortunately Garth is no longer employed at PGI, it was simply a matter of his skill set no longer matching the evolving needs of the product and studio." It does not say PGI has grown beyond the need for a Community Manager, simply that Garth's particular skillset does not match PGI's needs.

Garth was an awesome guy and he will be missed greatly. Here's to hoping for a bright future for both Garth and PGI.


Cheers.

[Deathlike]

Rebas Kradd, on 19 February 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Which is what, your precious ideas being implemented?

lol no. I never expect any particular idea to be implemented, because at this point, I don't expect anything to be read, legitimate constructive feedback or others.

Quote

You don't have any idea why your ideas aren't implemented, and you have absolutely no intellectually honest way to translate that into ANY judgment of the upper management.

You know better? I don't claim to know better. What I ask is generally, WHY are you thinking this way, with well thought out answers and responses to most of the possible questions that come of out it. If asking for a reasonable response to a change is "asking to much", I guess accepting things as is preferable? You know, not all requests/suggestions are born out of greed/personal bias/whatever. Sometimes, they are for "making things better".

Quote

And the REASON you don't have any idea why your ideas aren't implemented is because...no communication.

The thing about debates, which rarely exist in these forums (and even rarer with the devs) is that people want to understand what people are thinking. It doesn't mean people have to agree, but sometimes trying to explain yourself will allow people to provide better, well-engineered or crafted responses in order to properly respond to what the issue at hand is. Now, there's also more than one way to "skin a cat" and people have their own ideas about how things should work. However, if there's no actual discourse taken between devs and the players, the perception of "we know best" while many easily citeable arguments like the PPC meta lasting for however long it has (and still is) and various other issues (poor new player experience, and lack of tutorials) will continue to fester. So, it's not really not my job to resolve those issues. I have my own set of suggestions and if you don't want to deal with the issue altogether, you reap what you sow and I can do zero about that.

So you thought trying to goat me into a useless response... I hope you enjoyed writing that.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Garth was bad at his job. Whether it was allhis fault? Who knows. Everytime I mentioned it people seemed to agree. I dont think as many people cared for him as you think.

If they even knew who he was, since he basically stopped interacting.

[Featherwood]

To Victor Morson
Sir, thank you for argumented and clearly set out point of view on the topic, I do agree with 90% of your theses on the subject. It is very pleasant to discover that somewhere on our huge planet there is a person who thinks alike and has similar perception. My regards.

I still have in mind one thought which has not been voiced yet:
I do believe Garth's dismissal was reasonable as many pointed out before me, but as far as I know such decisions are not made in haste and usually preceded by few rounds of inner politics bargains. The cause of such tensions can always be reduced to financial situation. Money. Can it be so that Garth somewhat became the scapegoat or sacrifice to sate IGP's shareholders' discontent by lost profit? Most likely yes, but it's not what interests me. I think further income losses could force IGP to push PGI harder and I would dearly pay to get idea how close IGP to do it. Why? I'll tell you a name of game designer who, IMO, is as good in game design as Garth was in PR, but who surely lacks Garth's charisma. Paul Inouye. I can't wait to see Command Post stating Paul has decided to wreck some other game and leave MWO alone already. I have nothing personal against Paul, but it pains me to witness one ugly design solution after another which estrange MWO further and further away from what has been promised in 2012. And yet it is not late to save Community Warfare from his influence. I do believe that it is Paul who stays behind bad decisions and owns responsibility (hard points systems, ECM mechanics, ghost heat, map sizes, game modes, etc), but if I am wrong anyone is welcome to enlighten me.

That is my counterproposal to Livewyr's one: leave Garth wherever he currently is and send Paul to join him permanently in the club of PGI's ex-employees (just to cheer up dude and send him Livewyr's regards ).

Edited by Featherwood, 19 February 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Goodbye Garth, you were an amusing part of our community.

However, I hope that the next community manager will:
1. Make sure that all relevant information dribbled by PGI and IGP in different fora gets linked and mentioned here at the forums
2. Actively engage the active units and crazy forum posters that spend incredible amounts of time creating tournaments and working on game enhancing suggestions.
3. Stay actively engaged in making sure that development takes into consideration the issues that many of the community worries has been put on an eternal backburner.
4. Stays on top of what content is coming the pipeline; having players hunt high and low and post these nibblets (for free!) is ridiculous.

[Corvus Antaka]

Lets be real here, for years PGI has been getting battered to "clean up their mess", now people are changing jobs, what did you expect?

Bound to happen. Nice guy or not means very little,, in business, getting the job done means a lot more. Maybe he left on his own.

[Mazzyplz]

i like pada vinson's outlook, out with the old, in with the new

[Pando]

Realistically the larger problem is we don't have a community manager now. Wonder how many hours, days, weeks or months we will continue without one.

[Chronojam]

Pando, on 19 February 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

Realistically the larger problem is we don't have a community manager now. Wonder how many hours, days, weeks or months we will continue without one.

Kyle/PGI_Fox has done a fine job communicating back and forth between the community and staff both here and off-site, even if he doesn't have the title or official role. He has addressed several issues with expediency and professionalism, ranging from fixing site/storefront problems, to investigating and correcting the Google ads that used stolen art, to addressing allegations of moderator abuse, not to mention simply answering questions that deserved answers.

Garth always came across as condescending and you always got the feeling he was doing a poor job of facilitating communication between players and developers, and perhaps never accurately providing accurate reports to either.

[Roadbeer]

Chronojam, on 19 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Kyle/PGI_Fox has done a fine job communicating back and forth between the community and staff both here and off-site, even if he doesn't have the title or official role. He has addressed several issues with expediency and professionalism, ranging from fixing site/storefront problems, to investigating and correcting the Google ads that used stolen art, to addressing allegations of moderator abuse, not to mention simply answering questions that deserved answers.

Garth always came across as condescending and you always got the feeling he was doing a poor job of facilitating communication between players and developers, and perhaps never accurately providing accurate reports to either.

Totally agree with the first part.

As to the second, I enjoyed Garth mocking the especially neckbeardy or nerdragey.

[slide]

Perhaps the bigger question needing an answer is-

What is really going on with regard to these forums?

Not only have we lost our community manager (good or bad doesn't matter) we have also lost our chief Moderator Niko Snow in recent weeks. Losing both senior forum overseers in a few weeks suggests change, but for what I don't know.

Either way I wish both Garth and Niko well for their futures.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Chronojam, on 19 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Kyle/PGI_Fox has done a fine job communicating back and forth between the community and staff both here and off-site, even if he doesn't have the title or official role. He has addressed several issues with expediency and professionalism, ranging from fixing site/storefront problems, to investigating and correcting the Google ads that used stolen art, to addressing allegations of moderator abuse, not to mention simply answering questions that deserved answers.

Garth always came across as condescending and you always got the feeling he was doing a poor job of facilitating communication between players and developers, and perhaps never accurately providing accurate reports to either.

Totally agree.

[Chronojam]

Roadbeer, on 19 February 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Totally agree with the first part.

As to the second, I enjoyed Garth mocking the especially neckbeardy or nerdragey.

While I'm sure it was hilarious, PGI's senior staff apparently never apparently got the memo that their fans were upset about various topics until far too late -- probably because Garth never wrote, or delivered, the memo. It doesn't excuse poor audience research here, or picking a poor CM, but it did certainly put them into a reactionary position more often than not.

For an example of that, they seemed truly blindsided about third person view's poor reception. And then, to have Garth go on a live stream with TotalBiscuit and instruct him to use third person to gain a scouting advantage without placing his mech in danger? Memos missed, indeed, what with the party line being that third person would confer no advantage.

Let's take a moment to remember that at the height of 2PPC1Gauss, Garth was making claims that you simply could not balance long ranged weapons versus short ranged weapons in a video game. This is something he actually is on the record as saying, and quite clearly. It's absurd, and makes you wonder just how community feedback that did make it back to the devs was filtered. Perhaps they never knew about the dominant 2PPC1Gauss metagame because Garth merely thought it was inevitable and not worth mentioning?