281 replies to this topic

[Bobzilla]

Shs are viable, Dhs are just better. I just don't get the need to change shs. Just to make dhs less used? What would be the point?

[Dramborleg]

wanderer, on 27 February 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

*sighs*

"SHS aren't viable in a DHS game, we should make them that way!"

No, you shouldn't. By TRO 3055, 70% of the new designs were DHS stock- and virtually all of the SHS ones were lights- mediums and up were getting DHS strapped into them as a matter of engineering doctrine, as they needed all the cooling they could get.

By 3075, it's up to over 95% of them- and the one notable example is a Clan light used to train new pilots that explictly mounts SHS to help train them in heat management. The SHS in 3050 is already doomed to the second-rate scrap heap, and shouldn't even be bothered with in the long run- it's replacement will end up being the compact heat sink, starting in the late 3050's with a similar cooling profile but able to squeeze twice as many into the same space as a single SHS takes up.

Read the thread. This has been brought up multiple times. If SHS are meant to be bad because Battletech lore decrees it, then why not just not make them a gameplay option and make all heatsinks double by default?

[Dramborleg]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 February 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Man so the same game play that started on TT D&D is evil money grabs?

And I thought I was cynical!

The fun of D&D isn't reliant on its gameplay balance, it's based on interaction with an imaginary world as well as social interaction with friends. As modface pointed out, this is somewhat off-topic, but it's a false equivalence because an RPG (tabletop or otherwise) and a skill-based shooter are very different beasts, and never the twain should meet (although with the influence of CoD, they have been meeting more and more lately).

Edited by Dramborleg, 27 February 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[Monky]

I really hate this one aspect of battletech lore diehards, they don't seem to understand that this is a game which relies on being fun in order to keep new players rather than just atrophy into nothing as whales move on, which means lore will sometimes have to go out the window. If we were playing battletech MMO then it would be fine, you'd have a sense of progression and gated tech levels based on where you were in the timeline, but THIS is not THAT.

SHS need to become at least not crippling. I'm not even saying they need to directly compete with DHS, but they need to not cripple new players until that player gets enough to upgrade to DHS.

Edited by Monky, 27 February 2014 - 03:37 PM.

[Dramborleg]

Monky, on 27 February 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

I really hate this one aspect of battletech lore diehards, they don't seem to understand that this is a game which relies on being fun in order to keep new players rather than just atrophy into nothing as whales move on, which means lore will sometimes have to go out the window. If we were playing battletech MMO then it would be fine, you'd have a sense of progression and gated tech levels based on where you were in the timeline, but THIS is not THAT.

SHS need to become at least not crippling. I'm not even saying they need to directly compete with DHS, but they need to not cripple new players until that player gets enough to upgrade to DHS.

I don't know why you would even care about sanctity of lore in this game since it's explicitly non-canon

[Nick Makiaveli]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Double Heat sinks are a direct upgrade.

They dont need to be balanced with single heat sinks.


This is akin to literally taking two handguns, and giving one an extended clip. They are not balanced and not supposed to be.

If you want the upgrade pay for it.

And just like the two handguns, one is lighter, and if used properly you don't need the extra shots.

SHS take less space, can be placed in the legs and get bonus cooling if immersed in water. They have advantages, and so are not a complete no-brainer for ALL builds, just most.

[Hellcat420]

Spleenslitta, on 26 February 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

I saw a thread that was about this subject but it was from November 2013. I didn't want to ressurect an old thread so i made my own.

As you know almost nobody uses single heatsinks. How about giving the single heatsinks a higher heat limit before you shut down?
How much of a higher heatlimit? How about 30-40%? The doubles have 40% better cooling so it seems logical.

I know this isn't according to the TT rules but as it is right now single heatsinks are....well dang near useless.

Here is a link to the other thread discussing the same problem- http://mwomercs.com/...heat-sink-buff/

I also think this was a good suggestion made by Mahws.

no. double heatsinks are already nerfed, which affects them even worse than it should due to the horribly shitty heat system in this game.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 27 February 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

I would hate such a change if that were implemented (not that I don't have gobs of GXP laying around doing nothing).

HIDE THIS IDEA FROM PAUL NAO!

Note that I don't want that to actually happen, I'm just bringing it up as what SHS/DHS upgrading would be like if it followed the same mechanics as XP unlocks.

[Pjwned]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Double Heat sinks are a direct upgrade.

They dont need to be balanced with single heat sinks.


This is akin to literally taking two handguns, and giving one an extended clip. They are not balanced and not supposed to be.

If you want the upgrade pay for it.

There's no point in offering a choice then, and every single other component & upgrade in the game has both positives and negatives, making it wildly inconsistent with everything else you use to build your mech.

All it does is add a tedious grind when buying almost every single mech in the game, and that's not fun or good design in the least.

Sandpit, on 26 February 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

So SHS should be more effective negating the cost of upgrading to DHS?

That's counter-productive in my opinion

The idea is to have SHS be a viable option much like how endo steel, ferro fibrous, and artemis all have their own drawbacks while being in the same category of equipment as DHS.

Edited by Pjwned, 27 February 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[wanderer]

Dramborleg, on 27 February 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Read the thread. This has been brought up multiple times. If SHS are meant to be bad because Battletech lore decrees it, then why not just not make them a gameplay option and make all heatsinks double by default?

Because then you couldn't put in enough stock chassis at this point for virtually everything that IS in MWO right now. You'd have to bump the timeline up 10 years, past the Clan invasion at least. Maybe more. And add a ton of new equipment in to go with it. Take, say the Catapult.

Instead of the K2, you'd use the K3. Instead of the -C1, you'd need the -C1B Star League era version. The -C4C would likely round out the trio, but you'd be looking at having to dig up 'Mechs from 3055, at least. And there is -no- -A1 upgrade that uses DHS. Oops.

Having the older chassis in means it's easier to put together enough of them to allow for the minimum 3 MWO needs for a given model, and as nothing limits them upgrading to DHS, everyone wins.

[Pjwned]

wanderer, on 27 February 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Having the older chassis in means it's easier to put together enough of them to allow for the minimum 3 MWO needs for a given model, and as nothing limits them upgrading to DHS, everyone wins.

Except that the game is clearly balanced around essentially every mech having DHS, except that the upgrade costs 1.5m c-bills, except that the cost of it on top of every other expense with a horrendously slow rate of gaining c-bills makes the already pain in the ass mech building system even more so...

I could go on, this is a mind numbingly stupid argument. Nobody wins in this situation, you only get mindless drone morons with completely absurd rationalizations defending a worthless, tedious grind just to make your mech sufficient in a game where building your mech is a huge aspect.

[General Taskeen]

Some people are missing the point. Traditional Mech variants ripped straight out of record sheets, and put in this game, were essentially "heat neutral" with the weapons they came with and the SHS mounted on them. They hardly had to worry about heat with their minimalist loadout types, and the loadouts they come with aren't all that scary. DHS on stock Mechs are essentially built a specific way to handle a higher heat load, with fancy heat intensive weapons.

Those same Mechs are no where near heat neutral in MWO with SHS, due to design flaws in the game.

The mechanics are built around play to grind just to be able to have a less sh*** time in the match. All around horrible idea especially for new players.

Edited by General Taskeen, 27 February 2014 - 06:13 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

Double Heat sinks are a direct upgrade.

They dont need to be balanced with single heat sinks.


This is akin to literally taking two handguns, and giving one an extended clip. They are not balanced and not supposed to be.

If you want the upgrade pay for it.

while I agree there are some "direct" upgrades, I must say that since the heat scale is so out of whack in MWO, that is the problem, not them being a "direct upgrade". In TT many mechs were still quite viable on SHS. In MWO, the LCT-1V and your average GaussaPult are about it. DHS pay the crit space tax, as their "balancing" in theory, but SHS are near useless, which is NOT TT.

[Purlana]

Okay buff SHS, but then buff DHS to be actually be double.

[Khobai]

Again... It all comes back to what is and isnt good game design.

SHS are not good game design. Because they dont qualify as gear progression. Gear progression requires a game to have a difficulty curve. It starts you off against weaker opponents then gradually increases the difficulty of those opponents, forcing you to acquire better equipment in order to defeat them. Your gear gets better as the game gets harder.

MWO has no difficulty progression, it starts you off against good players in the best meta builds with all the best weapons/equipment available to them. SHS are obsolete the instant you buy a new mech. Effectively the only purpose SHS serve is to make all mechs cost 2 million more cbills because SHS are so bad they make you buy DHS instead.

SHS either need to be removed completely from the game or they need to be buffed enough so that SHS are better in some builds than DHS. Those are really the only two options for fixing SHS. The latter option is probably better since it doesnt change stock builds.

Edited by Khobai, 27 February 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

or buff neither, but fix the heat threshold period, and slow RoF down incrementally for most weapons, more in line with weapon fire of MW3 or MW4. Suddenly all sorts of stock builds become, while not optimal, at least viable. DHS should vent more heat, period, and in truth, SHS, should not get a special "boost", but should simply be able to function in a rough analogue of their TT effectiveness. Yes we shoot faster, but I feel in general we shoot TOO fast in this version. A mech like the AWS-8Q should be able to maintain a reasonable RoF, stock, as it was a relatively cool running design. One could of course argue that if you were to fire the PPCs only once every 10 seconds, it WOULD run cool enough, but then it would also still be totally outclassed by every other mech.

The Threshold and lack of heat effects, plus overly high RoF (and silly pinpoint convergence) are more the issue than whether SHS deserve a "buff" or if 1.4 or 2.0 DHS are needed. The difference in gameplay between 3050 and 3025 era mechs should be noticeable, but not the steamroll it is now.

Khobai, on 27 February 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Again... It all comes back to what is and isnt good game design.

SHS are not good game design. Because they dont qualify as gear progression. Gear progression requires a game to have a difficulty curve. It starts you off against weaker opponents then gradually increases the difficulty of those opponents, forcing you to acquire better equipment in order to defeat them. Your gear gets better as the game gets harder.

MWO has no difficulty progression, it starts you off against good players in the best meta builds with all the best weapons/equipment available to them. SHS are obsolete the instant you buy a new mech. Effectively the only purpose SHS serve is to make all mechs cost 2 million more cbills because SHS are so bad theyre unusable.

So SHS either need to be removed completely from the game or they need to be buffed enough so that SHS are better in some builds than DHS. Those are really the only two options for fixing SHS. The latter option is better IMO since it doesnt change stock builds.

technically, if Elo is working, it does not start you off against "good players". But that would actually mean that Elo made any bloody sense in a team game format. (aka, people should only be dropped with others in their own Elo bracket)

[Khobai]

Quote

technically, if Elo is working, it does not start you off against "good players".

ELO by itself doesnt work. Thats why theres massive changes coming to the matchmaker in april lol.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Back on topic.

Edited by Mister D, 27 February 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Sandpit, on 26 February 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

So SHS should be more effective negating the cost of upgrading to DHS?

That's counter-productive in my opinion

Not more effective, differently effective, rather than better in every meaningful manner.

Other's have suggested preserving the Threshold bonus on SHS and getting rid of it on DHS... among other heat based tweaks.

I would like to see every single SHS give a 5% bonus to the internal HP of the mech location it's installed into.

So DHS are just better at being heatsinks... but they're also just a little more frail as well... and a mech using them doesn't get quite as much internal hp as a mech that's still got "stock" heat sinks.

[Varent]

Pjwned, on 27 February 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

There's no point in offering a choice then, and every single other component & upgrade in the game has both positives and negatives, making it wildly inconsistent with everything else you use to build your mech.

All it does is add a tedious grind when buying almost every single mech in the game, and that's not fun or good design in the least.



The idea is to have SHS be a viable option much like how endo steel, ferro fibrous, and artemis all have their own drawbacks while being in the same category of equipment as DHS.

explain to me the negatives of the skill tree. It's a direct upgrade. You need money and time and effort to use it. And it adds tremendous advantages. How about modules as well. The benefit of not having and using them is......? Ya that's what I thought.