281 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

explain to me the negatives of the skill tree. It's a direct upgrade. You need money and time and effort to use it. And it adds tremendous advantages. How about modules as well. The benefit of not having and using them is......? Ya that's what I thought.

The pilot tree is an entirely different system from equipment & upgrades, and for the record it suffers from all of the same problems as DHS and more, I'm just not extensively complaining about it here because that's not what the thread topic is.

Poor design in 1 system is not an excuse for another system also being poorly designed.

[Varent]

Or you can just accept it a an upgrade. Every modern shooter out there has direct upgrade systems. Yet this one shouldnt.....because....?

[Cyborne Elemental]

Level the heat dissipation of IN ENGINE HEATSINKS to be fair.
1.0 vs 2.0 dissipation is huge if you get 10 heatsinks for free as with the STD250 and XL250.

Change Internal heatsinks to provide the same values, or very near.
Update the costs between DHS and SHS to be a little lower, like they did recently with ARTEMIS upgrade costs.

That alone IMO will make Single Heatsink builds viable, and maybe just maybe worthwhile.

SHS should be for high slot builds or builds with odd #'s slot requirements, such as BAP and JumpJet heavy setups, or ammomechs.

Would be a good first step to balancing things out.

Items in the game should always have a purpose, and not just for LORE sake.

When it comes to gameplay choice should always be there, why? because dynamic and choice keep things interesting.

When winning and being competitive all rely on everyone following the exact same path, thats just boring.

Probably the same reason Gauss or AC + PPC meta is so prevalent.

Probably the same reason every game is just a pile of assaults and maybe 1 or 2 lights.

The game has become stagnant, and there are very few choices you can make to be competitive.

Just like in games such as CounterStrike, once you've gotten you AWP, why use anything else?

Edited by Mister D, 27 February 2014 - 08:54 PM.

[Quizzical Coconut]

I've got a mighty balancing solution for you; allow mechs to mount both single and double heatsinks. Of course, for the sake of their economy, they'll never remove the dhs upgrade, so after it's purchased just allow the mech to mount both singles and doubles with the internal heatsinks defaulting to doubles. Singles may not be better, but they could still have a purpose.

[FupDup]

Quizzical Coconut, on 27 February 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

I've got a mighty balancing solution for you; allow mechs to mount both single and double heatsinks. Of course, for the sake of their economy, they'll never remove the dhs upgrade, so after it's purchased just allow the mech to mount both singles and doubles with the internal heatsinks defaulting to doubles. Singles may not be better, but they could still have a purpose.

I've seen this suggested before and it's a nice compromise. It still gives external SHS the sorta viable utility of filling in a extra slot if you lack the space for an additional DHS, while also preserving the mandatory DHS tax that gives some people a hard-on. It's a win-win...except for people who want to go full-lore who would say that mixing sink types isn't allowed. But you never want to go full lore.

Edited by FupDup, 27 February 2014 - 09:03 PM.

[Osric Lancaster]

Good stuff. This has been part of my suggested replacement heat system for ages, but ghost heat, high heat-cap and low dissipation rate are all part of the fail cake that is MWO's heat system.

http://mwomercs.com/...45#entry3184345

I would love to see Paul Inouye, forced to run around Terra Therma in a single heatsink hunchback 4p equipped with nothing but medium pulse lasers right now. . . I would shove my arm into a nest of fire ants nest if he could break 200 damage.

[Dramborleg]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Or you can just accept it a an upgrade. Every modern shooter out there has direct upgrade systems. Yet this one shouldnt.....because....?

Because that trend in modern shooters is repulsive and depressing. Just because it's a recent development doesn't mean it's more advanced. Quake III had no such system and it's probably the one of the closest things to a perfect competitive multiplayer game there is.

[Varent]

Dramborleg, on 27 February 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Because that trend in modern shooters is repulsive and depressing. Just because it's a recent development doesn't mean it's more advanced. Quake III had no such system and it's probably the one of the closest things to a perfect competitive multiplayer game there is.

Many people like the advancement of the gaming and shooting industry. Just because you find it deplorable doesn't mean the majority doesn't accept and want it to be this way.

[Pjwned]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Or you can just accept it a an upgrade. Every modern shooter out there has direct upgrade systems. Yet this one shouldnt.....because....?

Not only do most modern shooters not have a "direct upgrade" system, I don't want to accept it here because it's a bad system and I would just go play those games instead if I found them enjoyable, but I don't. If I did enjoy them I sure as hell wouldn't be playing this game with all the issues it has and how incompetent PGI is at delivering worthwhile content that was supposed to have already been in the game over a year ago.

Dramborleg, on 27 February 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Many people watch reality television, post Buzzfeed links on Facebook, and have no idea where the countries their government goes to war in are on a map. They are by no means qualified to design a good video game. If you believe that the encroachment of so-called "RPG elements" on non-RPG games is a positive trend, I want you to get your grubby, uncultured hands off my hobby and find another one to ruin like I don't know sports.

Was about to say something very similar myself, maybe a little less politely as well.

Edited by Pjwned, 27 February 2014 - 09:19 PM.

[Dramborleg]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

Many people like the advancement of the gaming and shooting industry. Just because you find it deplorable doesn't mean the majority doesn't accept and want it to be this way.

Many people watch reality television, post Buzzfeed links on Facebook, and have no idea where the countries their government goes to war in are on a map. They are by no means qualified to design a good video game. If you believe that the encroachment of so-called "RPG elements" on non-RPG games is a positive trend, I want you to get your grubby, uncultured hands off my hobby and find another one to ruin like I don't know sports.

Edited by Dramborleg, 27 February 2014 - 09:15 PM.

[Varent]

Pjwned, on 27 February 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Not only do most modern shooters not have a "direct upgrade" system, I don't want to accept it here because it's a bad system and I would just go play those games instead if I found them enjoyable, but I don't. If I did enjoy them I sure as hell wouldn't be playing this game with all the issues it has and how incompetent PGI is at delivering worthwhile content that was supposed to have already been in the game over a year ago.



Was about to say something very similar myself, maybe a little less politely as well.

COD, Battlefield, SpaceMarine, DayZ, just a few games that come to mind. Ones I play at least and that most of my friends play. You level up to unlock better weapons and gain access to new abilities and customization that is far superior to any players starting out in the game. The more you play the more you get and you gain access to more stuff. This is how most video games are in fact. Longevity and time and money invested is rewarded. In fact this is generally a neat fact about life. You get what you put into it. There should not be a 'participation award'

[Osric Lancaster]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 09:26 PM, said:

You get what you put into it.

Many people would argue that what you get out of playing a game is skill at playing that game. Being a skilled player is more enjoyable not just because you can win, but because you appreciate the game at a higher level of play. I started to enjoy the hell out of chess once I really learned the game. I can even enjoy losing more. . . no level ups needed.

[Varent]

Osric Lancaster, on 27 February 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

Many people would argue that what you get out of playing a game is skill at playing that game. Being a skilled player is more enjoyable not just because you can win, but because you appreciate the game at a higher level of play. I started to enjoy the hell out of chess once I really learned the game. I can even enjoy losing more. . . no level ups needed.

This isn't chess. Its online video gaming. Levels, experience, etc etc etc. If you don't like the fact that online FPS have taken this route across the board, and the communities like and enjoy being able to see there hard work amount to something, then perhaps you shouldn't play and find a different game. I do hear there are great Chess simulators out there.

[Dramborleg]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

This isn't chess. Its online video gaming. Levels, experience, etc etc etc. If you don't like the fact that online FPS have taken this route across the board, and the communities like and enjoy being able to see there hard work amount to something, then perhaps you shouldn't play and find a different game. I do hear there are great Chess simulators out there.

Excellent rebuttal. "If you don't like it, get out."

How about in a well-designed game, the reward you get for playing the game is the game itself because playing it is actually fun, and also getting better at the game. If the best thing you can say about the game is that it rewards "hard work," your game has failed to actually be fun.

Edited by Dramborleg, 27 February 2014 - 10:06 PM.

[Osric Lancaster]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

This isn't chess. Its online video gaming. Levels, experience, etc etc etc. If you don't like the fact that online FPS have taken this route across the board, and the communities like and enjoy being able to see there hard work amount to something, then perhaps you shouldn't play and find a different game. I do hear there are great Chess simulators out there.

I can not believe you are actually so dense as to not know the comparison I was making, but if you honestly get nothing out of a game outside levels and achievements, then may I suggest you play this instead of MWO?
http://www.kongregat...vement-unlocked

[Varent]

Dramborleg, on 27 February 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

Excellent rebuttal. "If you don't like it, get out."

How about in a well-designed game, the reward you get for playing the game is the game itself because playing it is actually fun, and also getting better at the game. If the best thing you can say about the game is that it rewards "hard work," your game has failed to actually be fun.

have you considered that many players enjoying leveling, and feel a sense of accomplishment as they upgrade there pilot skills and mechs and make them better? This is fun. This is part of what gaming is. Its part of the vast majority of games of this genre in fact as well as many many other games out there. Communities like this. Im sorry you do not. Its been put in like this because the majority of players like feeling accomplishment in there actions and like knowing there time spent means something.

[Dramborleg]

Osric Lancaster, on 27 February 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

I can not believe you are actually so dense as to not know the comparison I was making, but if you honestly get nothing out of a game outside levels and achievements, then may I suggest you play this instead of MWO?
http://www.kongregat...vement-unlocked

Heck, even Achievement Unlocked rewards the player for doing specific things. Varent wants to be rewarded just for playing.

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

have you considered that many players enjoying leveling, and feel a sense of accomplishment as they upgrade there pilot skills and mechs and make them better? This is fun. This is part of what gaming is. Its part of the vast majority of games of this genre in fact as well as many many other games out there. Communities like this. Im sorry you do not. Its been put in like this because the majority of players like feeling accomplishment in there actions and like knowing there time spent means something.

I have considered this and have arrived at the conclusion that the majority of gamers have a skewed understanding of what "achievement" means.

Edited by Dramborleg, 27 February 2014 - 10:23 PM.

[Varent]

Osric Lancaster, on 27 February 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

I can not believe you are actually so dense as to not know the comparison I was making, but if you honestly get nothing out of a game outside levels and achievements, then may I suggest you play this instead of MWO?
http://www.kongregat...vement-unlocked

Oh I understand what your saying completely. That is not the current status of online gaming. I don't know anyway to say it more simply and bluntly then that. The communities want accomplishment. People grow bored of plug and play gaming systems. That's simply a fact. People get invested in games when there time means something.

Dramborleg, on 27 February 2014 - 10:13 PM, said:

Heck, even Achievement Unlocked rewards the player for doing specific things. Lancaster wants to be rewarded just for playing.


I have considered this and have arrived at the conclusion that the majority of gamers have a skewed understanding of what "achievement" means.

Just because you feel that way does not change what the majority of players crave and want.

[Dramborleg]

Varent, on 27 February 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

Just because you feel that way does not change what the majority of players crave and want.

As long as you acknowledge that the mouthbreathers who crave artificial recognition to justify their dumping countless hours of their worthless lives into a free-to-play game are probably incapable of anything that could be recognized as an intelligent thought, I'm fine with that.

MWO is advertised as "the thinking man's shooter" though.

[Varent]

Dramborleg, on 27 February 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

As long as you acknowledge that the mouthbreathers who crave artificial recognition to justify their dumping countless hours of their worthless lives into a free-to-play game are probably incapable of anything that could be recognized as an intelligent thought, I'm fine with that.

MWO is advertised as "the thinking man's shooter" though.

Let me give you an example. Player A spends 4 hours a day in game honing his skill. He works hard, spends the money he earns from grinding and unlocks his skill tree to the full extent. He buys double heat sinks and everything else his mech needs. He feels accomplishment and is very happy with all he has done. He is proud of his mech. Player B logs in and spends 1 hour a day honing his skills. He is a more skilled player then player B. He however cannot invest the same amount of time and effort. What you are saying is that Player B should be rewarded for putting 1 hour into a game, while player A should simply have his hours waisted away because you feel they should be balanced off the bat? What you are saying is basically you want to pay someone for doing 1 hour of work the same amount as someone doing 4 hours. Games are based pretty heavily on real life senses of accomplishment. They reward your time and effort. Its why the gaming industry has moved towards it. Its an easy concept. Im sorry you feel that everyone should be rewarded instead of people that are actually willing to invest time and effort.