281 replies to this topic

[Dirkdaring]

Deathsani, on 26 February 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Direct upgrades serve no purpose in a game that is supposed to set players on equal footing. You can't base balance on the economy when there is an option to just buy mechs and then sell them for cbills.

Spending in game money on things should make them different not better. Save the "tier" garbage for MMORPG's.

Which game sets players on equal footing? This isn't it. You must be new and have not seen pilot trees or modules. And there's no economy in this game either.

[Hauser]

Double heatsinks are bad because they're pure power creep. Granted it is powercreep inherited from Battletech which needed to sell new models (clans) to keep going, but it shouldn't be left to stand.

[Dramborleg]

If they don't want to spend time on the game they shouldn't play the game. Why is that concept complicated?

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

And once its over you feel a sense of accomplishment, you can look back and tell yourself that, "Damn that was hard."

No, you tell yourself "damn, this game is really unfun. Why am I still playing it?"

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

Im sad you feel that way. I believe you will have a hard time going through life if you feel no sense of accomplishment from hard work. You will probly find most games annoying in general.

Could you be more of a condescending ass? You are the one arguing that the sense of accomplishment doesn't derive from playing the game itself, but from little trinkets. How can you disparage "participation trophies" when you literally want to be paid for participating, whether you're any good at the game or not?

Dirkdaring, on 28 February 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Which game sets players on equal footing? This isn't it. You must be new and have not seen pilot trees or modules. And there's no economy in this game either.

So because the game is already unbalanced, balance shouldn't be a priority at all?

[Varent]

im not being condescending, im being brutally honest. I work very hard for a living and deal with a lot of crap. I come home and feel good that I have given to the community that I work in and feel that I have earned my due. No where on your birth certificate did it say that life was going to be easy. Just like life games these days are usually designed with a rewarding system of increased hours spent. I simply don't feel its a hard concept to grasp. You can twist my words however you please to try and gain your own sense of meaning from them. In the end this is what the vast majority of games are. And the vast community likes them or they wouldn't be made this way. Take it or leave it. That's life for you.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Tell me again why you think DHS is in any way analogous to a "progression system"

Also, explain why you think making DHS not 100% mandatory for every mech would remove the feeling of being rewarded the time you spend playing the game.

As I see it, by removing the mandatory DHS requirement, the game would in fact reward you MORE, because then you will be able to purchase new mechs sooner without a mandatory DHS tax on each mech purchased.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 28 February 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Varent]

you apparently have never used many weapon upgrading systems and forging systems in mmos

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

you apparently have never used many weapon upgrading systems and forging systems in mmos

Several posters on this thread have already addressed this. MMOs are not chiefly competitive multiplayer games. The bulk of their gameplay is cooperative PvE. New players grind up to better kit by fighting weak monsters, and build from there. New players do not compete against other players.

If MWO had a PvE component where you can earn cbills by killing tanks and AI mechs, then you would have a point here. It does not, so you do not have a point.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 28 February 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Several posters on this thread have already addressed this. MMOs are not chiefly competitive multiplayer games. The bulk of their gameplay is cooperative PvE. New players grind up to better kit by fighting weak monsters, and build from there. New players do not compete against other players.

If MWO had a PvE component where you can earn cbills by killing tanks and AI mechs, then you would have a point here. It does not, so you do not have a point.

pvp servers.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

pvp servers.

Are you actually reading my posts? Are they too long or something? Here, I'll point out to you the part of my post that addresses your reply.

Kaeb Odellas, on 28 February 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

Several posters on this thread have already addressed this. MMOs are not chiefly competitive multiplayer games. The bulk of their gameplay is cooperative PvE. New players grind up to better kit by fighting weak monsters, and build from there. New players do not compete against other players.

If MWO had a PvE component where you can earn cbills by killing tanks and AI mechs, then you would have a point here. It does not, so you do not have a point.

I bolded it for you. Wow, that was almost the entire post!

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 28 February 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

Are you actually reading my posts? Are they too long or something? Here, I'll point out to you the part of my post that addresses your reply.




I bolded it for you. Wow, that was almost the entire post!

To be honest no. Im only skimming them. Mostly because we are on different pages. The bottom line is your playing a free to play game. This is the free to play model. I could make the pill easier to swallow and explain that this is actually not a bad system since it rewards those willing to work for it. And it does knock people down a notch and force them to work to be competitive. However that said, the fact stands that this is how free to play games function.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 08:54 PM, said:

To be honest no. Im only skimming them. Mostly because we are on different pages. The bottom line is your playing a free to play game. This is the free to play model. I could make the pill easier to swallow and explain that this is actually not a bad system since it rewards those willing to work for it. And it does knock people down a notch and force them to work to be competitive. However that said, the fact stands that this is how free to play games function.

So your argument boils down to "Worthless SHS is fine because it gives players something to works towards"? That is an absolutely ridiculous position to take. It's not as if DHS is the only goddamn thing we're spending CBills on in this game. PGI is releasing one new mech chassis per month. We're not going to run out of things to buy! We will not run out of goals to work towards! Abolishing the DHS tax will not suddenly turn the entire playerbase off the game because "they have nothing to work towards".

Oh, and since you apparently dind't actually read my previous posts, here's some questions I had for you that you never answered, in case you decide to read this one:

-Why do you think DHS is in any way analogous to a "progression system".?

-Why do you think making DHS not 100% mandatory for every mech would remove the feeling of being rewarded the time you spend playing the game?

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 28 February 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

So your argument boils down to "Worthless SHS is fine because it gives players something to works towards"? That is an absolutely ridiculous position to take. It's not as if DHS is the only goddamn thing we're spending CBills on in this game. PGI is releasing one new mech chassis per month. We're not going to run out of things to buy! We will not run out of goals to work towards! Abolishing the DHS tax will not suddenly turn the entire playerbase off the game because "they have nothing to work towards".

Oh, and since you apparently dind't actually read my previous posts, here's some questions I had for you that you never answered, in case you decide to read this one:

-Why do you think DHS is in any way analogous to a "progression system".?

-Why do you think making DHS not 100% mandatory for every mech would remove the feeling of being rewarded the time you spend playing the game?

The answer to both essentially boils down to, its a free to play game that exchanges time for money and quantifies the two. Its not even a discussion, its just a fact. I accepted that the moment I started playing MWO. I think a lot of people want this to be another true battletech title. It was never going to be that the moment they made it free to play. Doesn't mean it wont be good. But it does mean it comes with certain things people just need to accept and move on about.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 09:20 PM, said:

The answer to both essentially boils down to, its a free to play game that exchanges time for money and quantifies the two. Its not even a discussion, its just a fact. I accepted that the moment I started playing MWO. I think a lot of people want this to be another true battletech title. It was never going to be that the moment they made it free to play. Doesn't mean it wont be good. But it does mean it comes with certain things people just need to accept and move on about.

No, that actually doesn't answer either question, sorry. Not even close. How about you read the questions again and actually answer them, because I can't understand your position without answers to those two questions. Your argument hinges on the idea that DHS is a reward that players need to work towards and is a key part of the game's progression. Please explain how DHS fits that description.

And PGI already monetizes plenty of aspects of this game. They've already got Hero Mechs, Premium time, cosmetics, and three separate "Big mech package" deals going on that I'm sure is making them plenty of money. They do not need a DHS tax to make money. If anything, what PGI needs most right now is new players and new player retention, and making SHS usable would be a big help in improving the new user experience.

[Varent]

sigh. Ive explained.... You do understand that the point of a free to play game is to MAKE it harder on new players unwilling to spend money right, so that they can see how much easier it can be with money?

[Roland]

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

sigh. Ive explained.... You do understand that the point of a free to play game is to MAKE it harder on new players unwilling to spend money right, so that they can see how much easier it can be with money?

That's actually NOT the point of a F2P game.

The point of a F2P game is to make money.. and introducing artificial grind is not the only way towards that goal.

That's why I asked if you had ever played games by valve.

TF2 doesn't introduce grind. They get money from folks by selling purely cosmetic things. And they make tons of money, because people like the game, and are wiling to pay a few bucks for that stuff.

The best way to get customers to give you money, is to make them happy customers.

You don't make them miserable, and tell them that if they give you money they can be less miserable. Because they aren't obligated to play your game. If you make them miserable, they can just leave.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

sigh. Ive explained.... You do understand that the point of a free to play game is to MAKE it harder on new players unwilling to spend money right, so that they can see how much easier it can be with money?

If you make the game completely impenetrable, you risk alienating the new player and driving him away, especially if you don't explain to him why he's having such a horrible time playing their game. A new player could easily spend the $50 (nearly the cost of a modern AAA game) on MC to buy a Boar's Head or Misery, only to find that his purchase is completely useless out of the box because those two mechs don't come with DHS!. A fifty dollar purchase, yet you still have to grind out matches to upgrade them to not-useless status?

Hell, PGI has been alienating plenty of veteran players with their horrible design decisions and complete inability to balance their damn game. The last thing they need is to continue alienating new players.

[FupDup]

Roland, on 28 February 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

...TF2...

On a related note, I currently have approximately 1586 hours clocked in for TF2, and I keep coming back to play a few rounds every so often.

I think it's safe to say that pay-to-not-be-miserable is not the only way to make a successful F2P game.

Edited by FupDup, 28 February 2014 - 09:44 PM.

[Varent]

Roland, on 28 February 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

That's actually NOT the point of a F2P game.

The point of a F2P game is to make money.. and introducing artificial grind is not the only way towards that goal.

That's why I asked if you had ever played games by valve.

TF2 doesn't introduce grind. They get money from folks by selling purely cosmetic things. And they make tons of money, because people like the game, and are wiling to pay a few bucks for that stuff.

The best way to get customers to give you money, is to make them happy customers.

You don't make them miserable, and tell them that if they give you money they can be less miserable. Because they aren't obligated to play your game. If you make them miserable, they can just leave.

Yes and no. It depends on the game, And its not about being miserable. Honestly for example just to test it out I made a new account recently. (also because I was bored out of my mind.) I actually played the cicada over and over again because I just wanted to mess around and have fun and not do anything to meta. I actually found after my cadet bonus was over I had enough to buy and fully outfit a cataphract 3d. So... tbh, its not miserable. I got the mech I wanted with the tools they gave me. Now to perfect that mech I would need to buy two more, wich means I then have to analyze what im putting into the game. Can I still have fun? yes. Will I be at a disadvantage by not unlocking.. yes. Now that said many games do in fact take the other route and sell purely cosmetic things as well. LOL is an example of this (probly the BEST model out there ive found). However they in fact also sell the opportunity to make more experience and level faster by buying boosts. These boosts help you buy runes, and get levels and buy more champions, etc. Also in general they let you buy champions just by paying real money instead of having to earn it.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 28 February 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

If you make the game completely impenetrable, you risk alienating the new player and driving him away, especially if you don't explain to him why he's having such a horrible time playing their game. A new player could easily spend the $50 (nearly the cost of a modern AAA game) on MC to buy a Boar's Head or Misery, only to find that his purchase is completely useless out of the box because those two mechs don't come with DHS!. A fifty dollar purchase, yet you still have to grind out matches to upgrade them to not-useless status?

Hell, PGI has been alienating plenty of veteran players with their horrible design decisions and complete inability to balance their damn game. The last thing they need is to continue alienating new players.

This is admittedly the inherit problem of f2p. You cant... really talk about F2P because basically it is a really greedy system that makes more money then others. There is no real good way to sell that by saying it though. No F2P game really will explain there model since once they do you sorta realize your being pulled through the meat grinder. Its just a matter if your willing to still play while knowing it. I play and know it. But then Ihave a decent amount of expendable cash and like the BT title.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 28 February 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Yes and no. It depends on the game, And its not about being miserable. Honestly for example just to test it out I made a new account recently. (also because I was bored out of my mind.) I actually played the cicada over and over again because I just wanted to mess around and have fun and not do anything to meta. I actually found after my cadet bonus was over I had enough to buy and fully outfit a cataphract 3d. So... tbh, its not miserable. I got the mech I wanted with the tools they gave me. Now to perfect that mech I would need to buy two more, wich means I then have to analyze what im putting into the game. Can I still have fun? yes. Will I be at a disadvantage by not unlocking.. yes. Now that said many games do in fact take the other route and sell purely cosmetic things as well. LOL is an example of this (probly the BEST model out there ive found). However they in fact also sell the opportunity to make more experience and level faster by buying boosts. These boosts help you buy runes, and get levels and buy more champions, etc. Also in general they let you buy champions just by paying real money instead of having to earn it.

Your new account experiment proves nothing. You are not a new player. You actually know what to expect and how to do well in the game. New players do not have that knowledge.

I suppose they could put out a DHS tutorial, but what would it say? "This mech we gave you is useless! You need to spend over 1.5 million more CBills to allow it to even approach a level of competence. Almost every mech you buy will be this way. Even some of the expensive Hero mechs need this upgrade! Buy Premium time to reduce this grind and achieve basic competence faster!"