281 replies to this topic

[TungstenWall]

What if DHS in the engine only provided 1.4 dissipation, and external DHS provided 2.0? That way the increased volume (3 slots) would come into play more. Though still superior to SHS, you could not gain the full effect by keeping them compact in a large engine. Given that a 'Mech has room: External>Internal should have always been.
To get similar heat dispersion to what you likely have now, one would have to potentially give up FF or Endo for critical slots.

[Osric Lancaster]

TungstenWall, on 03 March 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

That amounts to a 30% decrease in the heat dissipation of any DHS 'Mech using a 250 rated engine or over. You'd have to mount 3 external DHS to break even with current DHS. If you fore go endo and ferro upgrades, you'd be able to squeeze out 1.2 more heat dissipation out of those external DHS at the cost of every useable critical space.

Regardless, you'd end up making engines rated higher than 250 more desirable, and basically everyone forever would get XL engines for saving weight and critical space for, say, that weight saving endo? (Or just for more heat sink stuffing space.) So you end up penalizing light and medium 'Mechs pretty heavily with that approach.

[CrashieJ]

wanderer, on 26 February 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Actually, this is part of setting MWO at the equivalent of the space between WWI and WWII.

Most of what MWO put in early were "WWI" designs. Lower tech weapons, SHS, no endo/ferro/XL engines. Pre-3039-era designs. The top-tech stuff is "WWII" gear- which is just seriously getting out there after 3039 and into the Clan Invasion.

This is like trying to say that a WWI tank should be an even match for a WWII tank. DHS become the standard over the next few years of game time as "WWI" older 'Mechs get wrecked by the score and the Houses went into a crash-mode production program for "WWII" upteched new designs and refits on what older designs remained.

Battletech has obsolescence in technology. We happen to be "historically" right at that point, and it'll happen again as LB-X and Ultra AC's become more widespread and in all calibers with the standard AC. Roll with it.

Single Heatsinks were supposed to have some buff in water if they were located in the legs, WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE BUFF IS?

seriously, it's been 2 years and we don't know the bonus (if there is one) of heatsinks in the legs.

if it's a 160% increase in cooling per heatsink in water then it would be worthwhile in most maps

[Squirtbox]

gavilatius, on 04 March 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

Single Heatsinks were supposed to have some buff in water if they were located in the legs, WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE BUFF IS?

seriously, it's been 2 years and we don't know the bonus (if there is one) of heatsinks in the legs.

if it's a 160% increase in cooling per heatsink in water then it would be worthwhile in most maps

Im not 100% but if I remember correctly it was something like a double dissipation rate for any heatsinks in the legs of a mech that was in water. Im sorry but having 4 singles at 2.0 is not better than having 10 engine heatsinks at 2.0 and any others at 1.4 all the time.

Single heatsinks are garbage and anyone claiming they are 'usable' is delusional.

I'll say it again; if PGI thinks DHS don't make SHS obsolete then having clan tech open to all wont make IS tech obsolete. Also allow the LB10X to fire slug and shot rounds since it also wont make the AC10 obsolete.

Edited by Squirtbox, 04 March 2014 - 02:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kaeb Odellas, on 28 February 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

Your new account experiment proves nothing. You are not a new player. You actually know what to expect and how to do well in the game. New players do not have that knowledge.

I suppose they could put out a DHS tutorial, but what would it say? "This mech we gave you is useless! You need to spend over 1.5 million more CBills to allow it to even approach a level of competence. Almost every mech you buy will be this way. Even some of the expensive Hero mechs need this upgrade! Buy Premium time to reduce this grind and achieve basic competence faster!"

First, if you want to test how good you are. You don't mod the Stock. Second the Stock Mechs do suffer under how PGI implemented heat. At least FASA had it set up that you could fire PPCs on a Warhammer in a 2:1:1:2 cycle, be warm, but never shut down. Try firing 2 PPCs on a Phract with 16 sinks here like that? Its not the Mechs, its the system. A Centurion is able to fire the AC10 and both medium non stop and walk, Zero heat on singles. Try it here. And don't give me the 2.5 cyclic time. THAT IS WHY STOCK MECHS ARE BROKEN, faster fire rate with SLOWER heat dissipation!

[Hauser]

Joshep, this isn't table top. Nobody wants a game where you have to wait 10 seconds before you can shoot. Nobody wants a game where heat isn't a factor at all either. The problem is the disparity between the effectiveness of double and single heat sinks. Not one or the other, but the difference between them.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hauser, on 04 March 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Joshep, this isn't table top. Nobody wants a game where you have to wait 10 seconds before you can shoot. Nobody wants a game where heat isn't a factor at all either. The problem is the disparity between the effectiveness of double and single heat sinks. Not one or the other, but the difference between them.

Everybody keeps missing the fact I say that sinks need to work faster like they do on TT. If you are firing 2.5 times faster Heat Sinks should be 2.2-2.4 times as fast. Slightly slower, but not so slow as to make the Mech a liability. Stock Mechs could Either Stagger fire heavy weapons or mass fire small weapons fairly well. A Stock Catapult was a good Fire Support Mech, Able to fire LRMs or Medium Lasers without worry. Forget the Handwavium 10 seconds. 15 Heat sinks keep 4 Mediums cold All day long. That is how Single Sinks should be working. Every 2.5-3.0 Seconds the 15 sinks should have vented 12 Heat!

[Hauser]

Thats all very nice but if you increase the cooling from singles, internal doubles and external doubles from resp 0.10, 0.20 and 0.14 to 0.25, 0.50 and 0.35 you'd still have the same problem because doubles are still about twice as good.

If thats what you want to say you're talking in the wrong discussion.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hauser, on 04 March 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

Thats all very nice but if you increase the cooling from singles, internal doubles and external doubles from resp 0.10, 0.20 and 0.14 to 0.25, 0.50 and 0.35 you'd still have the same problem because doubles are still about twice as good.

If thats what you want to say you're talking in the wrong discussion.

Its the right discussion, doubles are twice as good as singles, Singles need to be working better But double is always twice as much. And it is another reason why we pay 1.5 Million to Upgrade.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 March 2014 - 07:31 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 March 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Its the right discussion, doubles are twice as good as singles, Singles need to be working better But double is always twice as much. And it is another reason why we pay 1.5 Million to Upgrade.

Well, you could always make DHS cheaper, too. I mean the LB10-X costs twice as much as it should, and that's a downgrade from the AC10.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kaeb Odellas, on 04 March 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Well, you could always make DHS cheaper, too. I mean the LB10-X costs twice as much as it should, and that's a downgrade from the AC10.

Its a downgrade cause the Makers of MW have never figured out how to get LB-X Cannons to fire slugs and canister shot at the players discretion.

[wanderer]

Point being, DHS > SHS.

Problem is that SHS don't work at all,and DHS don't work well enough given the higher fire rates + ghost heat.

Heck, 10 DHS don't work the same depending on engine rating.

Put DHS on a 'Mech with a 100 rated engine. 6 of it's sinks suddenly work more poorly than the ones on a 250 engine. A 300 engine puts 12 sinks on in total. It sinks heat better than the 250 with 12 sinks.

Meanwhile, the weapons heat is so strong SHS simply melt unless it's a Gauss sniper.

[Hauser]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 March 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Its the right discussion, doubles are twice as good as singles, Singles need to be working better But double is always twice as much. And it is another reason why we pay 1.5 Million to Upgrade.

And that is power creep. Power creep is bad for gameplay and bad for business. Extra Credits did a nice video about it.



This power creep is inherent to battletech and it should be addressed. It means that the 3050 upgrades should become side grades, it means that the clan mechs can't be superior ton for ton. Anything else won't fly.

Edited by Hauser, 04 March 2014 - 02:22 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Hauser, on 04 March 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Joseph Mallan, on 04 March 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Its the right discussion, doubles are twice as good as singles, Singles need to be working better But double is always twice as much. And it is another reason why we pay 1.5 Million to Upgrade.

And that is power creep. Power creep is bad for gameplay and bad for business. Extra Credits did a nice video about it.



This power creep is inherent to battletech and it should be addressed. It means that the 3050 upgrades should become side grades, it means that the clan mechs can't be superior ton for ton. Anything else won't fly.

However, Power Creep can be avoided, or at least largely negated, through a balancing of multiple aspects of the same item.

For example: DHS could be allowed to have double the dissipation of SHS at the cost of having half (or less) of the heat capacity, such that "SHS vs DHS" becomes a trade-off between "the ability to fire heat-intensive salvos without immediately shutting down (and suffering heat damage) at the cost of slower dissipation rates for said heat" versus "the ability to quickly dissipate gradual heat buildup at the cost of the ability to handle heat-spike-inducing situations (such as the combat style of the "alpha-strike-all-the-time mentality")".
In that example, equipping SHS would be able to alpha-strike without shutting down but would cool more slowly, while equipping DHS would allow one to cool quickly but result in one generally shutting down immediately after a heat-intensive alpha strike.

[Hauser]

That would be one way to make DHS a side grade rather then an upgrade.

Edited by Hauser, 04 March 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[Foxfire]

IMO if they removed the engine doubles, that would instantly fix the direct upgrade of current double.. and allow double heatsinks to be true double heatsinks.

That way it is truly a choice between crit slot investment and weight investment and will make Doubles better for those builds that have a lot of extra crits free.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hauser, on 04 March 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

And that is power creep. Power creep is bad for gameplay and bad for business. Extra Credits did a nice video about it.



This power creep is inherent to battletech and it should be addressed. It means that the 3050 upgrades should become side grades, it means that the clan mechs can't be superior ton for ton. Anything else won't fly.

Though I usually like Extra Credit, Power creep is inherent to warfare, this is a war game. Very soon better builds will be released into the game, making the quibble over Single sinks a non issue. And the Clans need to be superior r I should just worry about battling Free Worlders and Snakes.

Clanners had advance tech cause the had few numbers. Even Tech with low numbers make for a battle of attrition. House Steiner alone has more forces than Both Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon combined. If they knew where the Clans were going to attack they could have massed forces and ended the silly upstarts cold with sheer weight of numbers.

I don't know how PGI could safely limit the numbers of Clan players to simulate this. And I don't think it would be a good idea so much either, But here you have it. The reason the Clans had Awesome tech. It was to compensate for a lack of man power.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 March 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Varent]

[CeeKay Boques]

All mechs or weapons shouldn't balance. Some are just cool or fun. The Blizzard "StarCraft E-Sport Perfect Balance" doesn't have to exist here. It harkens back to last years "Make Machine guns viable!!" (which they did, nice) There were a lot of people who really wanted that... I always thought they were "just for fun", but in todays games, if it exists, it better exist for a reason, because its going to be someone's favorite, and they will cry. The Urbanmech. One day it will show up, it will suck, and I hope it stays that way, so that when I kill with it, I get a little smile. If its "Balanced"... it ruins the point of fun with the thing.

If something is BLATENTLY OP, then it should be scaled back. You can mix things up with weight and even chassis type restrictions for CW or Private CW.

But true winners will go the Clan Way.

"We Defeated you."
"With all mediums."
"They were Artic Foxes"
"with a Machine gun in each arm"
"You may cry in a hole."

Single Heatsinks come with a 1,500,000 cbill bonus, so that's pretty equal.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

The root of the problem is never having single heat sinks balanced in game period. Had they started the game in 3025, and got that balanced, it would have laid the ground work for everything to come. Instead they started it in 3050, but intentionally chose to include obsolete technology (apparently the devs didn't have enough to do, so PGI made someone model single heat sinks even though there was absolutely no point). and because this game started with double heat sinks available, everything was balanced around that.

As for mechs starting with single heatsinks? hard to say, I guess PGI just hates new players and wanted to make the experience as frustrating as possible, by first forcing them to play single heatsink stock mechs, and once they could afford there own mech, forcing them to play with single heat sinks some more, to the tune 1.5 million, or roughly 30 long, grueling, losing games.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 05 March 2014 - 12:49 PM.