281 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Deathsani, on 26 February 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Direct upgrades serve no purpose in a game that is supposed to set players on equal footing. You can't base balance on the economy when there is an option to just buy mechs and then sell them for cbills.

Spending in game money on things should make them different not better. Save the "tier" garbage for MMORPG's.

You're talking a game that spans centuries of units, from the first Mackie in 2439 to the supercolossal 130-ton, three-legged 'Mechs of the Republic in 3145. Basically, it'd be like if World of Tanks went from the first stumbling WWI tank up through modern armored warfare and threw in some sci-fi future-spec tanks for good measure...all in the same game and occasionally the same battlefield.

Yes, there will be designs and tech that is -inherently inferior- to other items in the game. The single heat sink is the poster child example- it was a throwback in 2865 that got slapped into 'Mechs because they blew each other back to the Stone Age as far as tech was concerned and are -21st Century technology- that normally got used on lower-tech vehicles, not fusion-powered giant robots. Battletech is full of cases where retro, outdated tech ends up on the field because of production issues.

FupDup, on 26 February 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Were WWI and WWII PvP computer games to be played for personal enjoyment? If my memory isn't completely terrible, I recall both of those being real-life events with nations trying to destroy each other, and not a video game designed to be as fun as possible.

Good thing they don't restrict you from putting all the best stuff in your shiny robots, right?

And heck, PGI is castrating the Clans just so you don't have to deal with someone having a bigger shiny than yours, even if they have fewer of them and you could gang up on their shiny and blow it to tinfoil.

[Varent]

wanderer, on 26 February 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

You're talking a game that spans centuries of units, from the first Mackie in 2439 to the supercolossal 130-ton, three-legged 'Mechs of the Republic in 3145. Basically, it'd be like if World of Tanks went from the first stumbling WWI tank up through modern armored warfare and threw in some sci-fi future-spec tanks for good measure...all in the same game and occasionally the same battlefield.

Yes, there will be designs and tech that is -inherently inferior- to other items in the game. The single heat sink is the poster child example- it was a throwback in 2865 that got slapped into 'Mechs because they blew each other back to the Stone Age as far as tech was concerned and are -21st Century technology- that normally got used on lower-tech vehicles, not fusion-powered giant robots. Battletech is full of cases where retro, outdated tech ends up on the field because of production issues.



Good thing they don't restrict you from putting all the best stuff in your shiny robots, right?

And heck, PGI is castrating the Clans just so you don't have to deal with someone having a bigger shiny than yours, even if they have fewer of them and you could gang up on their shiny and blow it to tinfoil.

well said

[NRP]

The few times I tried to run SHS, I found that the heat capacity wasn't a problem, but the horrifically slow heat dissipation rate was. And that is the reason why SHS are effectively unusable. Once your mech builds heat, it stays hot forever and you can't fire. So you just get shot. And then you die. Helplessly.

DHS are an absolute necessity. When budgeting for a new mech, remember to add 1.5 million to the cost of any mech you are interested in. It's a tax you have to pay.

[Deathlike]

NRP, on 26 February 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

The few times I tried to run SHS, I found that the heat capacity wasn't a problem, but the horrifically slow heat dissipation rate was. And that is the reason why SHS are effectively unusable. Once your mech builds heat, it stays hot forever and you can't fire. So you just get shot. And then you die. Helplessly.

DHS are an absolute necessity. When budgeting for a new mech, remember to add 1.5 million to the cost of any mech you are interested in. It's a tax you have to pay.

Well, it is the Official Mech Tax of 2012... I mean 3049.

[Purlana]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

Well, it is the Official Mech Tax of 2012... I mean 3049.

They could always cut Cbill payouts like before, that was fun...?

[Spleenslitta]

NRP, on 26 February 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

The few times I tried to run SHS, I found that the heat capacity wasn't a problem, but the horrifically slow heat dissipation rate was. And that is the reason why SHS are effectively unusable. Once your mech builds heat, it stays hot forever and you can't fire. So you just get shot. And then you die. Helplessly.

DHS are an absolute necessity. When budgeting for a new mech, remember to add 1.5 million to the cost of any mech you are interested in. It's a tax you have to pay.

I can see what you are saying. But do you have a suggestion for how to balance single and double heatsinks?
The fact that singles are effectivly unusable as you say is the reason i put up this thread.

Doing something like raising the heatlimit on singles is better than doing nothing at all i say.

[Deathlike]

Purlana, on 26 February 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

They could always cut Cbill payouts like before, that was fun...?

If only they could balance it correctly...

[Purlana]

Spleenslitta, on 26 February 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

I can see what you are saying. But do you have a suggestion for how to balance single and double heatsinks?
The fact that singles are effectivly unusable as you say is the reason i put up this thread.

Doing something like raising the heatlimit on singles is better than doing nothing at all i say.

Why do they need to be usable? It's old tech, to be thrown away in the trash...

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

Purlana, on 26 February 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

Why do they need to be usable? It's old tech, to be thrown away in the trash...

I can't believe you asked that. Right now a lot of players go c-bill farming to get ahold of double heatsinks.
If single heatsinks stay as they are all mechs might as well come equiped with doubles when you buy them.

The c-bill farming leads to players going to the front in a match, fire a bit on the enemy and then they run away to a corner of the map to shut down.
Balancing single and double heatsinks should help significantly when it comes to dealing with this problem.
There are loads of other reasons for why they should be balanced.

[Purlana]

Spleenslitta, on 26 February 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

The c-bill farming leads to players going to the front in a match, fire a bit on the enemy and then they run away to a corner of the map to shut down.
Balancing single and double heatsinks should help significantly when it comes to dealing with this problem.
There are loads of other reasons for why they should be balanced.

You could say the same thing about custom mechs vs trial mechs. We still have trial mechs....

And yes as time goes on more mechs will come with DHS when you buy them.

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 02:31 PM.

[Purlana]

By the early 31st century, double heat sink technology was on the verge of rediscovery. The Federated Suns had a double heat sink project in its prototype stages by 3022 with individual samples built into operative BattleMechs, and in 3030, towards the end of the Fourth Succession War, the Capellan Confederation already fielded their BJ-3 Blackjack variant^[4], the first regular 'Mech design sporting double heat sinks in decades if not centuries. (Although it is not generally known, the Confederation did not develop double heat sinks themselves; the Federated Suns had prototypes manufactured in the Lyran Commonwealth and a Capellan agent was able to siphon a share of the production off to the Confederation.^[5])
Following the discovery of the Helm Memory Core and the subsequent dissemination of lost Star League knowledge throughout the Inner Sphere in 3028, double heat sinks gradually became a staple of 'Mech construction again and were extensively used in retrofits and new designs.

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

It goes without saying that everything the dev's put in the game should have some purpose.

If we go by your logic Purlana then the MG's would never have become a viable weapon.
When people heard MG in MWO over a year ago they said that it is an anti infantry weapon and should never be effective against a mech.
But now it is said to be effective against unarmored internals.

[Purlana]

Spleenslitta, on 26 February 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

It goes without saying that everything the dev's put in the game should have some purpose.

If we go by your logic Purlana then the MG's would never have become a viable weapon.
When people heard MG in MWO over a year ago they said that it is an anti infantry weapon and should never be effective against a mech.
But now it is said to be effective against unarmored internals.

MG's still aren't really effective or viable. Have you seen many MG's in competitive play? Also see flamers.

The current purpose of the SHS is to cost you c-bills when you upgrade to double heat sinks....

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Varent]

Purlana, on 26 February 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

MG's still aren't really effective or viable. Have you seen many MG's in competitive play? Also see flamers.

The current purpose of the SHS is to cost you c-bills when you upgrade to double heat sinks....

hate to go off topic there but I have to.

MG themselves are quite good. They are not competitive because the Jump Sniping meta makes it very difficult to close distance effectively and bring them to bear without the enemy using a hill for cover the whole time and being fresh once you get there.

[Purlana]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

hate to go off topic there but I have to.

MG themselves are quite good. They are not competitive because the Jump Sniping meta makes it very difficult to close distance effectively and bring them to bear without the enemy using a hill for cover the whole time and being fresh once you get there.

Compared to the old version of MGs yeah, compared to other weapons no. Otherwise you would see swarms of MG Spiders instead of FS and Jenners....

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[Deathsani]

I hated the trial mechs when I started just as much as everyone else did. When I started playing the titanfall beta wasn't inherently shittier than the equivalent top tier loadout, just less specialized. I died because I was bad at the game, not because the people who played it before me received an arbitrary bonus for playing longer.

Customizing should be about personal preference and not about better and worse. Might as well just have weapons do more damage when you progress to your level 80 douchmech.

[Khobai]

Quote

This is akin to literally taking two handguns, and giving one an extended clip. They are not balanced and not supposed to be.

Actually the downside to extended magazines is more weight. If extended magazines were always better they wouldnt sell both.

If DHS are always better than SHS they simply should not sell both. Right now DHS are just a scam to make all mechs cost 2 million extra cbills.

[Purlana]

Deathsani, on 26 February 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

I hated the trial mechs when I started just as much as everyone else did. When I started playing the titanfall beta wasn't inherently shittier than the equivalent top tier loadout, just less specialized. I died because I was bad at the game, not because the people who played it before me received an arbitrary bonus for playing longer.

Customizing should be about personal preference and not about better and worse. Might as well just have weapons do more damage when you progress to your level 80 douchmech.

May as well get rid of cbills, and have instant access to everything then. Also all pilot skills should come unlocked without grinding xp.

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Actually the downside to extended magazines is more weight. If extended magazines were always better they wouldnt sell both.

If DHS are always better than SHS they simply should not sell both. Right now DHS are just a scam to make all mechs cost 2 million extra cbills.

a perfect example. the double heat sinks here are three times the size.

now your counter argument is going to be - "Thats not a real disadvantage"

My counter is going to be - "Im a law enforcement officer and a firearms instructor IRL. Neither is an extended clip",

Continue.

[Khobai]

Quote

a perfect example. the double heat sinks here are three times the size.

now your counter argument is going to be - "Thats not a real disadvantage"

Its not a disadvantage because DHS inside your engine dont take up crit slots. So the size is irrelevant.

DHS inside your engine are treated exactly the same as SHS inside your engine, but give twice the dissipation. So they are outright better. Period.

DHS are always better is because the majority of your dissipation comes from internal heatsinks inside the engine. Since they do not take up any crit slots so your whole 3 crit slot vs 1 crit slot argument is simply wrong.

Quote

My counter is going to be - "Im a law enforcement officer and a firearms instructor IRL. Neither is an extended clip"

It weighs more. And costs more. And is subject to getting banned by the government. Those are all disadvantages of extended magazines.

And why are you calling them clips? They are magazines. Someone in law enforcement should know better.

Edited by Khobai, 26 February 2014 - 03:47 PM.