281 replies to this topic

[Purlana]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Triple gauss and quad Uac5....they require SHS to fit those massive weapons.



And this is an FPS, which required balance. PGI doesn't seem to think so. LPL and MPL are "where we want them".

SHS should keep the rising heat cap, but DHS should not. Straight dissipation, no silly rising heat cap. Then make them truly double. Or 6.0 to keep up with the insane RoF VS Heat....but that's for another discussion, mainly the borked relation of damage to RoF to heat.

After a certain date just remove SHS from the game. Fixed, and kind of justified by lore.

[Daekar]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

k, whatever helps you sleep better at night.

He's right. Every single gun I own, rifle and pistol, has a magazine. Only three can use clips to load those magazines quickly, and clips of ammo look nothing like detachable or internal magazines. How do they expect you to properly enforce firearms laws if you don't know these things?

http://4.bp.blogspot...8/s400/sks4.jpg

This is an SKS rifle with a fixed 10 round magazine shown with two clips of ammo, one of which is in position and ready to be used to load the magazine. There is a difference. It is better to be educated and precise, rather than to be lazy and appear ignorant.

Edited by Daekar, 26 February 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[Varent]

Daekar, on 26 February 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

He's right. Every single gun I own, rifle and pistol, has a magazine. Only three can use clips to load those magazines quickly, and clips of ammo look nothing like detachable or internal magazines. How do they expect you to properly enforce firearms laws if you don't know these things?

http://4.bp.blogspot...8/s400/sks4.jpg

This is an SKS rifle with a fixed 10 round magazine shown with two clips of ammo, one of which is in position and ready to be used to load the magazine. There is a difference. It is better to be educated and precise, rather than to be lazy and appear ignorant.

The fact that you think calling a magazine a clip effects law enforcement and firearms safety instruction is laughable at best.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Triple gauss and quad Uac5....they require SHS to fit those massive weapons.

You know exactly what I meant by "solid build". As much as those builds can't use DHS, you know how much of a glass cannon they are....

That's besides the point.

[Strum Wealh]

Purlana, on 26 February 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

After a certain date just remove SHS from the game. Fixed, and kind of justified by lore.

The Owens and Strider are IS OmniMechs that are (in BT, and would be in MWO) locked into standard/"single" Heat Sinks.

[Daekar]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

The fact that you think calling a magazine a clip effects law enforcement and firearms safety instruction is laughable at best.

If the ATF regulations and other firearms laws were sensibly written, it wouldn't matter at all. Since they're not, and felony convictions can hinge on tiny technicalities that have little or no effect on functionality of a firearm, yes, it does matter.

Did you know that the ATF defined a shoestring as a machine gun? Yep.
Did you know that adding safety feature to certain old rifles to prevent uncontrolled full-auto fire is a felony?
Did you know that in New York, screwing a piece of broomstick to a hunting rifle causes it to be redefined as an assault weapon?

Yeah, it's that stupid, so yes, it does matter. If gun owners are expected to keep track of crap like that, then law enforcement officials are equally responsible for the information.

[DocBach]

Pretty much single heat sinks are the equivalent of vendor trash from other MMO's. We currently don't have very many post 3050 variants of 'Mechs (a lot of designs like the BJ-2, etc) are missing from the roster, but we're entering a period of time where the single heat sink is becoming obsoleted.

[TehSBGX]

Capt Sternn, on 26 February 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

I'm sorry there was a Supreme Court Decision on this that it will be known from here on as the Mech Tax, 1.5M c-bills per Mech purchase. How else are we gonna pay for Obama-care.

You win at lulzy posts. My hats off to you.

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

k, whatever helps you sleep better at night.



uh huh. and its simply a direct upgrade, much like the extended clip would be. I am failing to see your correlation here. Its 1.5 million to have a nice upgrade.

Lets put this into context for an mmo style.

random warrior a starts the game. he has a sword.

random warrior b has played the game for awhile, he has a +1 sword.

Random warrior b is better, because he has spent money... to be thus.

Problem?

LOL not really. Back When I used to play Diablo 2 a lot, I accepted people with BETTER gear were going to out preform me. I had good gear but the guys with top tier gear did better. MMORPGs are all about the bling man. Worst example you could ever give.

Edited by TehSBGX, 26 February 2014 - 06:11 PM.

[Varent]

Daekar, on 26 February 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

If the ATF regulations and other firearms laws were sensibly written, it wouldn't matter at all. Since they're not, and felony convictions can hinge on tiny technicalities that have little or no effect on functionality of a firearm, yes, it does matter.

Did you know that the ATF defined a shoestring as a machine gun? Yep.
Did you know that adding safety feature to certain old rifles to prevent uncontrolled full-auto fire is a felony?
Did you know that in New York, screwing a piece of broomstick to a hunting rifle causes it to be redefined as an assault weapon?

Yeah, it's that stupid, so yes, it does matter. If gun owners are expected to keep track of crap like that, then law enforcement officials are equally responsible for the information.

actually its a particular joy of law enforcement to be exempt from many things. though your rant is amusing.

[Daekar]

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

The Owens and Strider are IS OmniMechs that are (in BT, and would be in MWO) locked into standard/"single" Heat Sinks.

Oh dear... I liked the Owens, too! They'll have to break the rules or change the heat system if those mechs are to be viable.

[Daekar]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

actually its a particular joy of law enforcement to be exempt from many things. though your rant is amusing.

That is a sign of corruption in the system because it means double-standards exists and laws are not equally applied to all people. The fact that you find that amusing is absolutely terrifying, and means you have no respect for or knowledge of the laws we pay you to uphold.

Are you really arguing that it's your prerogative to be ignorant?

Edited by Daekar, 26 February 2014 - 05:55 PM.

[Varent]

Daekar, on 26 February 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

That is a sign of corruption in the system because it means double-standards exists and laws are not equally applied to all people. The fact that you find that amusing is absolutely terrifying, and means you have no respect for or knowledge of the laws we pay you to uphold.

Are you really arguing that it's your prerogative to be ignorant?

Oh i stopped listening to half of your posts the moment you took the route you did tbh. You lost all respect and credibility you may have had on any platform the moment you decided to attempt to attack the credibility of someone that may have to take a bullet for your stupidity.

Have a lovely day.

[Lyoto Machida]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

actually its a particular joy of law enforcement to be exempt from many things. though your rant is amusing.

Obviously...I see you guys texting while driving all the time. I wonder if that's how stuff like this happens...

At least he got a misdeamnor and a $150 fine...that'll teach him.

[Strum Wealh]

Daekar, on 26 February 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Oh dear... I liked the Owens, too! They'll have to break the rules or change the heat system if those mechs are to be viable.

And on top of the SHS (which are all within the Engine), the Owens has fixed Standard structure, Standard armor as a fixed type, a fixed XL 280 Engine, a hardwired Beagle (Left Torso), hardwired TAG (Right Torso), and a hardwired C3 Slave Unit (Right Torso).

The Strider has one of its SHS outside of the Engine (it's mounted in the Left Leg, to be more specific), along with a fixed Endo-Steel structure (6 crits in each side-torso, 1 crit in each leg), Standard armor as a fixed type, a fixed STD 240 Engine, and hardwired CASE (1 in each side-torso).

On the actual subject of the thread: I, myself, even wrote out a proposal for a modified HS implementation, focusing on the distinction between dissipation vs threshold.

Strum Wealh, on 05 September 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Personally, I would rather see much smaller effects on threshold for both HS types.

• all SHS: -0.10 heat/second per HS, +0.50 to heat threshold per HS
  
• all DHS: -0.20 heat/second per HS, +0.25 to heat threshold per HS

Essentially, DHS would provide twice the dissipation, but only half of the (small) increase in threshold when compared to SHS.

Additionally, base heat threshold for each 'Mech (without taking HS into account) should, IMO, be set to (30 + ((tonnage)/100)).
As such, the base threshold for a 20-ton 'Mech (e.g. Flea, Locust, Dasher) would be 30.20, while the base threshold for a 65-ton 'Mech (e.g. Catapult, Loki) would be 30.65 and the base threshold for a 100-ton 'Mech (e.g. Atlas, Daishi) would be 31.00.
The number and type of HS would then add to the base threshold, with the sum being the 'Mech's actual/total heat threshold.

Thus:

• a stock AWS-8Q (an 80-ton 'Mech with 28 SHS) would have a heat threshold of 44.80 (from (30 + (80/100) + (0.50 * 28))) and a dissipation rate of 2.8 heat/sec,
  
• a DHS-equipped but otherwise unmodified AWS-8Q (an 80-ton 'Mech with 28 DHS) would have a heat threshold of 37.80 (from (30 + (80/100) + (0.25 * 28))) and a dissipation rate of 5.6 heat/sec,
  
• a stock AWS-9M (an 80-ton 'Mech with 20 DHS) would have a heat threshold of 35.80 (from (30 + (80/100) + (0.25 * 20))) and a dissipation rate of 4.0 heat/sec,
  
• a stock CN9-D (a 50-ton 'Mech with 10 SHS) would have would have a heat threshold of 35.50 (from (30 + (50/100) + (0.50 * 10))) and a dissipation rate of 1.0 heat/sec, and
  
• a DHS-equipped but otherwise unmodified CN9-D (a 50-ton 'Mech with 10 DHS) would have would have a heat threshold of 33.00 (from (30 + (50/100) + (0.25 * 10))) and a dissipation rate of 2.0 heat/sec.

As illustrated (moreso by the AWSs than by the CN9s), this would (IMO) create a more tangible trade-off between using one HS type over another (especially when larger numbers of HS are equipped) - SHS would provide a greater boost to threshold (and would thus be of greater utility in preventing self-inflicted heat damage for those (usually "high-alpha") builds that are expected to produce large amounts of heat at once) at the cost of dissipation rate, while DHS provide a greater boost to dissipation rate at the cost of heat threshold (and would thus be of greater utility to those (usually "DPS-oriented") builds that are more-greatly affected by heat generation (and heat dissipation) over time than by sudden heat spikes).

Thoughts?

[Daekar]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Oh i stopped listening to half of your posts the moment you took the route you did tbh. You lost all respect and credibility you may have had on any platform the moment you decided to attempt to attack the credibility of someone that may have to take a bullet for your stupidity.

Have a lovely day.

I would take a bullet for my wife at the drop of a hat, and I'm the one that carries a gun when we go places we consider high-risk. That doesn't mean that she can't question and correct me when I'm in error.

Your choice to become a LEO does not mean your credibility is unassailable - quite the opposite. You are unfortunately reinforcing the stereotype that LEOs suffer from inflated egos and believe themselves simultaneously separate and superior to the people that pay their salaries and purchase their toys. You are not. I suggest you spend some time with people from outside California - you'll find that the rest of the country isn't completely filled with bleating sheep who need you to herd them.

On topic: the Strider looks like it would be totally screwed if it were dropped into MWO. Is it likely to appear in the timeline in the next few years?

[Strum Wealh]

Daekar, on 26 February 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

On topic: the Strider looks like it would be totally screwed if it were dropped into MWO. Is it likely to appear in the timeline in the next few years?

The IS OmniMechs (which we can currently, reasonably assume would follow the same rules as Clan OmniMechs with regard to customization, IMO) don't really become "a thing" until much later in the BT timeline:

• The Raptor makes its debut in 3052.
  
• The Black Hawk KU makes its debut in 3055.
  
• The Owens, Avatar, and Sunder make their debut in 3056.
  
• The OmniTech Firestarter chassis technically makes its debut in 3056, but its various configurations aren't available until 3057.
  
• The Strider and the OmniTech Blackjack make their debut in 3057.
  
• The Perseus (basically the OmniTech Orion) makes its debut in 3058.
  
• The Arctic Fox makes its debut in 3059.
  
• The Men Shen and the Hauptmann make their debut in 3060.
  
• The Templar makes its debut in 3062.

And then it's all Wobbie stuff and additional configs for the above until 3100 (with the debut of the Templar III).

Of those, the Owens and the Strider are the only ones locked into SHS.

[JDH4mm3r]

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

The IS OmniMechs (which we can currently, reasonably assume would follow the same rules as Clan OmniMechs with regard to customization, IMO) don't really become "a thing" until much later in the BT timeline:

• The Raptor makes its debut in 3052.
  
• The Black Hawk KU makes its debut in 3055.
  
• The Owens, Avatar, and Sunder make their debut in 3056.
  
• The OmniTech Firestarter chassis technically makes its debut in 3056, but its various configurations aren't available until 3057.
  
• The Strider and the OmniTech Blackjack make their debut in 3057.
  
• The Perseus (basically the OmniTech Orion) makes its debut in 3058.
  
• The Arctic Fox makes its debut in 3059.
  
• The Men Shen and the Hauptmann make their debut in 3060.
  
• The Templar makes its debut in 3062.

And then it's all Wobbie stuff and additional configs for the above until 3100 (with the debut of the Templar III).


Of those, the Owens and the Strider are the only ones locked into SHS.

i dont think MWO would survive 10 years =P

unless they do a time jump of course..... otherwise we might as well be in an alternate universe.

[wanderer]

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Actually the downside to extended magazines is more weight. If extended magazines were always better they wouldnt sell both.

If DHS are always better than SHS they simply should not sell both. Right now DHS are just a scam to make all mechs cost 2 million extra cbills.

Time skip the game to 3055, and pretty much every 'Mech is going to come with DHS stock- much like 99.9% of Clan 'Mechs do. Again, stock designs at this point are- and this is thanks to PGI - right at the point where SHS designs are being replaced by DHS ones.

[Varent]

Daekar, on 26 February 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

I would take a bullet for my wife at the drop of a hat, and I'm the one that carries a gun when we go places we consider high-risk. That doesn't mean that she can't question and correct me when I'm in error.

Your choice to become a LEO does not mean your credibility is unassailable - quite the opposite. You are unfortunately reinforcing the stereotype that LEOs suffer from inflated egos and believe themselves simultaneously separate and superior to the people that pay their salaries and purchase their toys. You are not. I suggest you spend some time with people from outside California - you'll find that the rest of the country isn't completely filled with bleating sheep who need you to herd them.

On topic: the Strider looks like it would be totally screwed if it were dropped into MWO. Is it likely to appear in the timeline in the next few years?

You know. I rewrote this statement about 5 times considering what would properly express my degree of disgust.

In the end I decided it wasnt worth it. The fact that you have such little respect for a public servant speaks miles.

I honestly and truly hope you are put into a position where you need to rely on the good heartedness of a law enforcement officer to believe you, to trust you and to try and help you. And I hope when that moment comes the officers has been jaded by people like you. I hope he has been spit on and attacked by people he has tried to help. I hope that he has been put through the grinder. I hope when you need him to let you slide. When you need him to believe you were not in the wrong he instead sees nothing but an individual that spits on the system and is worthy of nothing but the pure word of the law.

Consider yourself ignored, if you were on fire im not exactly sure I would have to relieve myself. If you catch my drift.

DIAF.

wanderer, on 26 February 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

Time skip the game to 3055, and pretty much every 'Mech is going to come with DHS stock- much like 99.9% of Clan 'Mechs do. Again, stock designs at this point are- and this is thanks to PGI - right at the point where SHS designs are being replaced by DHS ones.

yup

Edited by Varent, 26 February 2014 - 11:46 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Who the hell cares that DHS are supposed to be a direct upgrade to SHS in the lore? This isn't the goddamn tabletop game. This is an online shooter based on a certain tabletop game's setting. It doesn't have to adhere strictly to the tabletop rules, and shouldn't. Otherwise, it would be an unplayable mess.

A direct upgrade with functionally no downsides in a competitive online game is simply bad game design. All of the other "upgrades" in this game have drawbacks attached. Only DHS does not.

It's absolutely bizarre that many of you would excuse poor game design decisions with "It's in BattleTech!" and yet are able to completely ignore far greater deviations from the setting.


As for the topic at hand, I'd like to see DHS be given full double dissipation, but with no added heat capacity whatsoever. Basically something like

SHS: +1.0 dissipation, + 1 heat cap
DHS: +2.0 dissipation, no heat cap increase.
All Engine: +2.0 dissipation per heatsink, no heat cap increase.

(all values can be tweaked as needed)

This gives SHS and DHS their own particular roles. Since doubles no longer increase heat capacity, they're best used for sustained-damage, slow burn builds that can stay in the fight longer. Singles are used by high-alpha builds that need the increased heat cap to put out lots of damage in a short amount of time.

And just so long-time players with massive hangars aren't screwed over by these changes, give each existing mech in the hangar a free SHS conversion for those who want to swap their mechs back.