281 replies to this topic

[Purlana]

The disadvantage of higher tech is supposed to be cost / ability to obtain said tech.

Maybe make it a part of CW. You can't use DHS in mechs until you control planet X, Y or Z.

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 03:43 PM.

[TB Freelancer]

Purlana, on 26 February 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

Single Heatsinks are supposed to become useless....

No, they aren't. If heat sinks properly dissipated heat, there would be numerous builds where singles would prove advantageous over doubles because of crit space available. Back in MW4 I had several competitive builds, one which another TB member used to win a couple of solaris seasons using singles, that I also used in numerous comp matches quite successfully.

Heat sinks don't dissipate heat fast enough. They still dissipate heat at TT rates or worse (70% of TT rate for doubles) over a period of 10 seconds in a real time game where all weapons fire over 2 to nearly 20 times faster than TT rates. So heat builds up fast.

PGI in their tradition of coming at problems sideways decided that heat sinks would add threshold and once you past your threshold you'd shut down in a few seconds. In TT you could surpass 30 heat without any lasting negative effects so long as you dissipated the heat you generated to below 30 over the course of a turn. So a mech like an Awesome, standing still could fire 3 PPCs one turn, 3 the second, then need to fire only 2 to avoid heat issues, it could run that third turn and it could do that perpetually 3-3-2, 3-3-2.

Anyway, PGIs introduction of obnoxiously high heat thresholds allowed for builds that could fire massive bursts i.e. quad ERPPC boats, or even the 6 PPC stalker, builds that would be impossible under a proper heat system. Those builds were effective because they exploited the extremely high thresholds and were able to stay at sufficient range to hide while they cooled.

In a sustained fight energy builds are effectively choked out by the heat system, only enjoying a very brief period of increased effectiveness being able to fire far more that TT ever allowed for a couple of alhpas, then in a sustained fight they stall out to TT rates of fire or worse because of the heat system. That's why only very fast mechs with the speed to duck out of the fight while they cool or mechs that operate at range can use energy weapons to any effect, though typically, the larger the mech, the more useless it is if its only running energy weapons.

As it is right now, the broken heat system along with poor balance in rates of fire, and weapons are just horribly out of balance, as is the relationship between single and 1.4HS. Case in point, a Spider 5K(C) has double the sustained DPS of numerous stock assault builds that use mainly energy weapons because they simply get choked by the broken heat system.

The fix isn't as simple as just fixing the heat system, there are other factors involved like rates of fire, projectile speeds, etc. Fixing the heat system alone to the exclusion of other factors would actually make things worse than they are now.

There are a number of ways to achieve the same end results, but the simplest that would best represent TT or previous titles would be to alter rates of fire, lower the heat cap, increase dissipation and alter a lot of projectile speeds.

[FupDup]

TB Freelancer, on 26 February 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

...Back in MW4 I had several competitive builds, one which another TB member used to win a couple of solaris seasons using singles, that I also used in numerous comp matches quite successfully....

Not to go too far off-topic, but I don't recall MW4 having a distinction between single and double heat sinks. That game's mechlab just had generic "Heat Sinks" that weighed 1 ton and didn't occupy any space (MW4 didn't use critical slots).

[Varent]

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

And why are you calling them clips? They are magazines. Someone in law enforcement should know better.

I want to make a joke here but ill refrain since I doubt it will be taken well by this crowd. Im going to stick with, "do you really think using slang has any bearing on a persons comfort level with firearms?"

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

Its not a disadvantage because DHS inside your engine dont take up crit slots. So the size is irrelevant.

DHS inside your engine are treated exactly the same as SHS inside your engine, but give twice the dissipation. So they are outright better. Period.

DHS are always better is because the majority of your dissipation comes from internal heatsinks inside the engine. Since they do not take up any crit slots so your whole 3 crit slot vs 1 crit slot argument is simply wrong.



It weighs more. And costs more. And is subject to getting banned by the government. Those are all disadvantages of extended magazines.

you ignored most of what I said. But thats fine. Double heat sinks outside of the engine sitll use up space. Alot of mechs cant fit more then 1-2 and many cant fit even one extra one. This is a subtle downside that is easy to work around either way.

This is the exact same for an extended clip. Its a subtle thing easy to work around. Hell my county issue firearm comes standard with an extended clip. Its easy to use, not cumbersome and the weight is negligible at best. Its a direct upgrade with little to no downside.

TB Freelancer, on 26 February 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Back in MW4 ....

This isnt MW4.

[Purlana]

TB Freelancer, on 26 February 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

No, they aren't. If heat sinks properly dissipated heat, there would be numerous builds where singles would prove advantageous over doubles because of crit space available.

And then came the Clan double heats. Behold a double heat sink that takes up only 2 slots and can fit in your legs.

All of the IS fled in horror as their world crashed down and imploded apon itself. No fair declaired the IS leaders, those damn clanners have superior tech!

And woe to the clanners, for then came the crying and a plague of nerfs where released apon the universe!

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 04:04 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I want to make a joke here but ill refrain since I doubt it will be taken well by this crowd. Im going to stick with, "do you really think using slang has any bearing on a persons comfort level with firearms?"

Its not slang. Its incorrect terminology. They are two completely different things. A magazine is what feeds ammo into the firearm. While a clip assists in feeding magazines into the firearm or loading magazines. Again someone in law enforcement should know the distinction.

Quote

Double heat sinks outside of the engine sitll use up space.

I understand that. External DHS take up 3 crit slots while external SHS take up 1 crit slot. But the majority of your dissipation comes from your internal heatsinks not your external ones. The advantage of having internal DHS always outweighs the advantage of having external SHS.

Quote

If heat sinks properly dissipated heat, there would be numerous builds where singles would prove advantageous over doubles because of crit space available.

Correct. If heat sinks dissipated heat at the same rate weapons fired there would be a couple builds where SHS would be better. But in the current heat system, DHS are always better.

IMO they should either remove SHS completely or increase the dissipation of internal SHS from 1 to 1.5 which would make SHS worth using for certain builds.

Edited by Khobai, 26 February 2014 - 04:24 PM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Its not slang. They are two completely different things. A magazine is what feeds ammo into the firearm. While a clip assists in feeding magazines into the firearm.

k, whatever helps you sleep better at night.

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

I understand that. External DHS take up 3 crit slots while external SHS take up 1 crit slot. But the majority of your dissipation comes from your internal heatsinks not your external ones. The advantage provided by having internal DHS always outweighs any advantage from external SHS.

uh huh. and its simply a direct upgrade, much like the extended clip would be. I am failing to see your correlation here. Its 1.5 million to have a nice upgrade.

Lets put this into context for an mmo style.

random warrior a starts the game. he has a sword.

random warrior b has played the game for awhile, he has a +1 sword.

Random warrior b is better, because he has spent money... to be thus.

Problem?

[JDH4mm3r]

Varent, on 26 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

k, whatever helps you sleep better at night.



uh huh. and its simply a direct upgrade, much like the extended clip would be. I am failing to see your correlation here. Its 1.5 million to have a nice upgrade.

Lets put this into context for an mmo style.

random warrior a starts the game. he has a sword.

random warrior b has played the game for awhile, he has a +1 sword.

Random warrior b is better, because he has spent money... to be thus.

Problem?

you forgot to add:

Random warrior C is Godlike and thus struck ya down for opposition.
=P

[Varent]

JDH4mm3r, on 26 February 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

you forgot to add:

Random warrior C is Godlike and thus struck ya down for opposition.
=P

no you got it wrong.

Random Highlander directs his spite upon you and blows you into oblivion.

[Khobai]

Quote

uh huh. and its simply a direct upgrade, much like the extended clip would be. I am failing to see your correlation here. Its 1.5 million to have a nice upgrade.

Its not an upgrade its a compulsory purchase. No one runs around with SHS. The first thing you do when you buy a new mech is upgrade it to DHS.

[TB Freelancer]

FupDup, on 26 February 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Not to go too far off-topic, but I don't recall MW4 having a distinction between single and double heat sinks. That game's mechlab just had generic "Heat Sinks" that weighed 1 ton and didn't occupy any space (MW4 didn't use critical slots).

Yeah, your right, I'm confusing some facts between MW4 and MW3. Its been a good 10 years since I played the game. I'm going to have to find a copy of it and load it up to refresh my memory a little I guess.

Edited by TB Freelancer, 26 February 2014 - 04:37 PM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Its not an upgrade its a compulsory purchase. No one runs around with SHS. The first thing you do when you buy a new mech is upgrade it to DHS.

did someone put a gun to your head and make you buy them?

does the mech still function, do the lasers shoot, does it move, can it jump jets, use sensors, etc, etc.

Mech works without them.

Its a direct upgrade.

[Deathlike]

TB Freelancer, on 26 February 2014 - 04:34 PM, said:

Yeah, your right, I'm confusing some facts. Its been a good 10 years since I played the game. I'm going to have to find a copy of it and load it up to refresh my memory a little I guess.

You might be thinking MW3... if you go far back enough...

Edited by Deathlike, 26 February 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

does the mech still function

no. mechs do not function with shs. not competitively at least.

[Purlana]

Khobai, on 26 February 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

no. mechs do not function with shs. not competitively at least.

Well yeah, but the same could be said of pilot skills, JJs and modules.

The same mech without them is just plain inferior.

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 04:44 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Purlana, on 26 February 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Well yeah, but the same could be said of pilot skills, JJs and modules.

The same mech without them is just plain inferior.

But useable, not with SHS. You can fire half as much, then it takes over twice as long to cool. Horrid, absolutely horrid.

[Varent]

just because its bad doesnt mean it doesnt still work. If everyone just GOT double heat sinks then there would be less grind to the game. Its an upgrade just like xl engines, endo, ferro, and different weapon systems.

Mechs dont come with everything you want. No game gives you everything off the bat.

Welcome to upgrading and enhancing your (character) and the grind.

[Deathlike]

Name a solid build with SHS that cannot be improved with DHS.

You won't be able to produce enough of these compared to every DHS build.

[Purlana]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Name a solid build with SHS that cannot be improved with DHS.

You won't be able to produce enough of these compared to every DHS build.

Yeah that's because SHS is obsolete tech, just like the Mackie.

Edited by Purlana, 26 February 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Name a solid build with SHS that cannot be improved with DHS.

You won't be able to produce enough of these compared to every DHS build.

Triple gauss and quad Uac5....they require SHS to fit those massive weapons.

Purlana, on 26 February 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Yeah that's because SHS is obsolete tech....

And this is an FPS, which required balance. PGI doesn't seem to think so. LPL and MPL are "where we want them".

SHS should keep the rising heat cap, but DHS should not. Straight dissipation, no silly rising heat cap. Then make them truly double. Or 6.0 to keep up with the insane RoF VS Heat....but that's for another discussion, mainly the borked relation of damage to RoF to heat.