504 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Deathlike, on 12 March 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

There is a symbiotic relationship between teams and their players. Although I don't want to spend the effort explaining it all, there are 3 things you really need to know...

I thought this was a really good post about taking personal responsibility in a match. Up until the last paragraph where you refocused on solo players, changing the tone of the entire piece into so much rhetoric.

[Deathlike]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 12 March 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

I thought this was a really good post about taking personal responsibility in a match. Up until the last paragraph where you refocused on solo players, changing the tone of the entire piece into so much rhetoric.

You can't control people. There is personal responsibility, but it's not always your fault if they go in X direction when you suggest to go Y position.

In MWO, the Company Commander has to play like a shepard. I'm not fond of using said analogies, but not everything will go your way. Only at the peak levels of competition is where saying very little can accomplish a lot.

If it was always personal responsibility when your teammate builds something terrible, then you haven't dealt with people that refuse to think the same way. The thing on your end is to convince them or at least make their decision to go that way "less terrible". You can only work with what you are given with.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 March 2014 - 02:20 PM.

[Novakaine]

This is because PGI has purposely killed any attempts at sync drops.
And killed team play in general.
Was with some friends the last night trying to sync drop.
Out of the 7 or 8 matches we tried not once did we even manage to be on the same side.
And that was just 5 of us in a 2man and a 3man.
So whats to blame here?
ELO and they know this.
So anything outside of a 4 man is nigh impossible.
Will this still apply for lobbies and the myth of CW?
I don't know but it doesn't bode well.

[Sandpit]

Novakaine, on 12 March 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

This is because PGI has purposely killed any attempts at sync drops.
And killed team play in general.
Was with some friends the last night trying to sync drop.
Out of the 7 or 8 matches we tried not once did we even manage to be on the same side.
And that was just 5 of us in a 2man and a 3man.
So whats to blame here?
ELO and they know this.
So anything outside of a 4 man is nigh impossible.
Will this still apply for lobbies and the myth of CW?
I don't know but it doesn't bode well.

Just a suggestion, try sync dropping as solos. I've noticed better success at that when we do it for monday madness than when we're trying to get 2 groups synced for some reason. (this will become even more true when the number of players available to drop alongside you are fewer because CW has to team you up with players that are in the same faction as you and since PGI can't really regulate that without destroying queue times for everyone I'm sure we'll use that to drop on the same team as a group on TS is they continue forward with their current plans)

[Roadbeer]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Just a suggestion, try sync dropping as solos. I've noticed better success at that when we do it for monday madness than when we're trying to get 2 groups synced for some reason. (this will become even more true when the number of players available to drop alongside you are fewer because CW has to team you up with players that are in the same faction as you and since PGI can't really regulate that without destroying queue times for everyone I'm sure we'll use that to drop on the same team as a group on TS is they continue forward with their current plans)

Not to mention, as I have stated before, with the 3/3/3/3 format, you'll be able to game the queue even easier since you'll be able to coordinate a sync and estimate your Elo relative to those you're attempting to sync with

[Sandpit]

Roadbeer, on 12 March 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

Not to mention, as I have stated before, with the 3/3/3/3 format, you'll be able to game the queue even easier since you'll be able to coordinate a sync and estimate your Elo relative to those you're attempting to sync with

Yup, one thing they fail to seem to understand concerning the difference between now and CW

1000 players means you have 1000 players to pool from for any given game

CW can't work like that
1000 players
200 players in Marik
Now they only have 200 players in the pool to match up with. Then you factor in the rule of 3, then you factor in Elo matching and it's easy to see that you could essentially drop to 50 players to pull from. Again, it's a matter of people not understanding statistics and looking deeper past simple %'s

[5th Fedcom Rat]

I love how some of the same people claiming sync dropping isn't a problem are actively plotting here how to continue sync dropping once PGI implements measures to try and stop it. If it doesn't give you an advantage, why are you all so adamantly set on doing it?

I've found on these forums that the loudest protesters tend to protest loudest when the advantages they cling to are in danger (streak cats, poptarting... and now sync dropping).

[Sephlock]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 12 March 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

I love how some of the same people claiming sync dropping isn't a problem are actively plotting here how to continue sync dropping once PGI implements measures to try and stop it. If it doesn't give you an advantage, why are you all so adamantly set on doing it?

I've found on these forums that the loudest protesters tend to protest loudest when the advantages they cling to are in danger (streak cats, poptarting... and now sync dropping).

In fairness, maybe some of them just want to play with their buddies?

[psihius]

I will tell you why stats are as they are. Because when you team up, in my personal case, our group is almost exclusively teamed with a bunch of stupid newbies or total morons. It looks like as if our group average ELO is high (not surprising, because i'm from VRGD and we consist mostly of high-skill veterans of MWO and our guys get top places at tournaments and leagues), so the server puts a bunch of low-elo players on our side and and throws us an enemy team of medium-skilled players. Adding to the misery is the fact that tonnage balance most of the time is seriously skewed in enemy team's favor (we once played 1 assault and mix of meds/heavies vs 11 assaults and one jagermech! Turkey shoot...)
The result? Chaos and madness. Usually it goes 4 ways:

• Other two lances on our team get obliterated and we are left like 4 to 8, 4 to 12. We usually manage to take down few (sometimes almost all) enemies on the bigger maps, but most of the time we just get focus-fired. This is always a definitive loss.
  
• We play a hard-hitting lance of assaults/heavies. We try to draw attention to us, splitting the enemy. If we manage to divert a lot of attention, we usually all get killed, but we at least kill a bunch of mech's, sometimes up-to 6-7. And at that point it heavily depends on the time of the day: in prime time most of the time our teammates are plain stupid and usually get all killed despite the number advantage. When playing at night (usually past 23:00 UTC), then it depends, but at that time there are much more skilled players playing and for the most part they are aware of the tactical situation and recognize opportunities. But hey, I can't play every day staying up till 3-4 in the morning my local time.
  
• This is a semi-rare occasion when you are put with some decent players on par or close to your own level. This is where we either just plain roflstomp the enemy, or we win because of tactical maneuvering and hitting the enemy from multiple directions (I once maneuvered my lance right into enemy backs and 11 out of 12 enemy kills where on our lance).
  
• On rare occasions you get an enemy team with matching skill and more or less balanced teams tonnage wise.This is when it all gets to the hardcore level we actually like to play, but without the drawbacks of 12 vs 12 when it all is Arty and Air strikes all over the place. There is nothing more satisfying than ending a game 11 vs 12 and the mech's that survived is like a hair away from exploding.

And this is why half of our unit is not playing at the time, other half is pugging without a group, because then their ELO does not affect balance that much and they can more or less enjoy the game, and some 7-8 guys are running in 3-4 man groups and we try to play it smart. When "medium vs world" was active - it was a pleasure to play for a week. Now, we had to revert to assaults/heavies mix just to not be killed on sight by a lance or two of assaults.

So, I think, to hell with the 12 vs 12 queue and 4-man groups. We need to split to the "casual" and "competitive" queues. Casual queues are available for all, but the competitive queue is available only for people above some skill level, that is defined by the ELO and maybe some other stats.

Edited by psihius, 13 March 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[Roadbeer]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 12 March 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

I love how some of the same people claiming sync dropping isn't a problem are actively plotting here how to continue sync dropping once PGI implements measures to try and stop it. If it doesn't give you an advantage, why are you all so adamantly set on doing it?

I've found on these forums that the loudest protesters tend to protest loudest when the advantages they cling to are in danger (streak cats, poptarting... and now sync dropping).

Hey, support a 2-12 group queue with the benefits of a solo queue and you won't need to worry about it.

A wise man once said "Your freedom to be you, should not infringe on my freedom to be from you"

[Sandpit]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 12 March 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

I love how some of the same people claiming sync dropping isn't a problem are actively plotting here how to continue sync dropping once PGI implements measures to try and stop it. If it doesn't give you an advantage, why are you all so adamantly set on doing it?

I've found on these forums that the loudest protesters tend to protest loudest when the advantages they cling to are in danger (streak cats, poptarting... and now sync dropping).

"I want to pugstomp and force new players to play against me in their trial mechs"
Said noone in this thread

I love how some want to justify group limits by putting words in their mouths and trying to make it out like they have some ulterior motive.

[Roadbeer]

Sandpit, on 13 March 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

"I want to pugstomp and force new players to play against me in their trial mechs"
Said noone in this thread

I love how some want to justify group limits by putting words in their mouths and trying to make it out like they have some ulterior motive.

Think his post belongs in THIS thread

[Zolaz]

The only problem with MWO being a team game is that PGI coded in teams and you can chat prior to the game in a team lobby. That is it. You are so right PGI, it is hard to believe that 84% of drops are solo PUGs. (It isnt like PGI skewed the "stats" of that statement either. I know that PGI would never misrepresent or change their position on something or just say something false.)

With that robust 2-4 team creation system that you create from your friends list. Where am I suppose to get those friends? In the non scroll-able, 1984 worthy in game chat system we have?

I might believe PGI if they had an ounce of respectability, reliability or just plain honesty.

[Sandpit]

Roadbeer, on 13 March 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Think his post belongs in THIS thread

pretty much. The sad thing is people like that tend to not understand that a good portion of that 84% aren't dedicated solo players and another portion would much rather drop alongside a group than gambling that the 11 other guys they're dropping with don't contain 1-2 players who disco because they don't like a map, 2-3 players that rambo in and die in the first 60 seconds, which then results in a roflstomp (notice how that has NOTHING to do with a premade being on either team people?)

[Jacon Ceronia]

I just want the option to drop with 6 friends. I mean, ComStar doesn't even use lances. A level one (their equivalent to a lance/star) is 6 mechs (or units). That, and how are they planning to handle stars, with the arrival of the Clans (5 mechs)?

[zolop]

Reposted Quotes because forum members have typed this better than me...

Davers, on 10 March 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't know why PGI would expect 12 players to pony up $18 million Cbills each for a dropship, but then not be able to drop together.

People want to play with their friends, not have to choose which friends to exclude. No mature player wants to stomp pugs. No mature player wants pugs to have a bad time playing. By far the best and most interesting matches are against other units.

Even in subscription games there is a lot more for groups to do than playing solo. If you are not in a guild in Warcraft you will not see the big dungeons, and if you got into a 'pick up' raid there was a good chance it would fail. How much of EVE's 'endgame' can a solo player experience? Everybody pays the subscription, but not everyone gets the 'whole game'.

I guess all us 'House Units' are just going to be stuck in limbo until PGI decides what it wants to do with us. Guess we should be glad they are willing to do anything, since we weren't even thought of when they designed the game.

Good Point. Wouldn't mind if Merc units had their own que for battle, in fact I would start saving one now for C_Bills for it. Helll I might even spend money on the Jester MEch even without a sale if they bring back the hardcore que for this reason (with any group sizes). I welcome the fun to join a MERC que even if I was joining the match solo. I like to work as a team, where in games like the Arma series, it is very, very important, unlike Planetside 2 / Battlefield Series where its a mindless running to objective.

Zolaz, on 10 March 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

It doesnt matter what kind of rules PGI puts in, people will get stomped. As long as I get pinpoint targeting and there are people running around who cant play, those people will get crushed. Noobs will come to the forums and complain about every problem except the one they can correct, themselves.

If PGI was smart, and I dont believe they have anyone over there who is, they would have a solo queue and then a team queue. Let you have teams 2-12. Balance equal number teams on each side. Reward solo droppers in the team que with a c-bill increase....

NEarly all the people that I used to play with in my clan gave up on the game because the reasons mentioned in this post.. It would be the good idea, along with weight class limits per lance (or tonnage restrictions) to for PGI to use Zolaz's idea with UI 2.0's group launch module. I don't understand why PGI wants to PUNISH clans, medium to large clans for having a large group support and advertise their MWO by not giving CW rewards to them. It is just hard to have trust in PGI still, at least for me. I am a pheonix member because I gave them a chance to develop the game they did start to communicate more with the community. though I have since stopped spending MC on MWO months back, no more money until CW...

PhoenixFire55, on 11 March 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

Too many people stopped playing the game because of group limits. They might have returned because PGI promised unlimited group sizes, but wait ... lies again. They might have returned for community warfare, but wait ... I have to pay to play with/against particular team?

And what did the limit achieve? Poor puggers still cry about getting roflstomped by premades even when there are none around, matches are still as unbalanced as ever if not worse.

Honestly ... does anyone really believe that the PUG-only population will keep playing this game for 2, 3, 4, 5 years? Who will play your stupid game in the long run PGI? I'll tell you ... nobody will if you just keep screwing groups over and over again.

Von Falkenstein, on 11 March 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

As the founder and leader of one of the first german units out there I can honestly say that PGI virtually did nothing to help teamplay oriented groups. Remember the 2-3 months span when they banned 8vs8 groups and only allowed 4 man groups until they sorted things out? What a frustrating time.

Anyways... we managed to endure and even prosper not because of but despite PGI's efforts:

To all those remaining units out there, no matter which natonality or size: Keep up your good work. I hope things will improve for us.

Agree entirely

Edited by zolop, 13 March 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Sephlock]

Sandpit, on 13 March 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

pretty much. The sad thing is people like that tend to not understand that a good portion of that 84% aren't dedicated solo players and another portion would much rather drop alongside a group than gambling that the 11 other guys they're dropping with don't contain 1-2 players who disco because they don't like a map, 2-3 players that rambo in and die in the first 60 seconds, which then results in a roflstomp (notice how that has NOTHING to do with a premade being on either team people?)

Ramboing would probably be less common if others would stop trying to drag a game out as long as humanly possible by moving toward the front lines (where first contact usually happens) at half speed so someone else gets there first and takes the first hit, then refusing to ever peek over/around cover until someone else does it first, and then doing so only after that someone else is half dead.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

There are many anecdotes and “what if” scenarios we can use to support our viewpoints, but I feel they detract from big picture. I think we can all agree that providing an additional free 1-12 group queue is a low cost, low impact solution to issue of integrating mid-sized groups in the game.

PGI has suggested it has a real cost (same server resources for 5v5 as 12v12), but they fail to include the hidden cost of ignoring a segment of the player base. Look at how many resources PGI is spending to eliminate sync drops, rather than support a separate venue. Instead of a win-win for everyone, we are getting a win-lose solution.

A lot of negativity in this thread springs from the partisan nature of the parties involved, and the antagonist exchanges that goes along with it.

[Artgathan]

What if we allowed groups to drop in 2 - 12 size inside of PUGs but pilots dropping in groups (that were over 4 pilots in size) were subject to repair / rearm fees?

[Sandpit]

Artgathan, on 13 March 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

What if we allowed groups to drop in 2 - 12 size inside of PUGs but pilots dropping in groups (that were over 4 pilots in size) were subject to repair / rearm fees?

I'm sure at this point players would agree with that if that was the only alternative but I still don't see why people keep wanting to punish and dissuade those who just want to drop in a group larger than 4.