504 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Leroifou, on 14 March 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Having more teams out there would improve the "one 4-man stomping all the PUGs", not make it worse.

DING DING DING! ^ This guy gets it.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Leroifou, on 14 March 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

Having more teams out there would improve the "one 4-man stomping all the PUGs", not make it worse. More teams in the queue means more teams on each side.

That is incorrect. Premade groups by their very nature ignore Elo boundaries and confound the Matchmaker. A perfect example of this is 12-man premades, where there are exactly 0 PUGs to blame everything on. These matches frequently result in steamroll stomps, this is because the matchmaker has less control over the skill level of the pilots involved. This is part of the reason that the 12-man is desolate, and at any given time you may "fail to find match" 3+ times in a row.

I am all for having a solo-only queue, a group-only queue, and a competitive queue (12-man). But your post was inaccurate, and only attempts to single out solo players as the reason teams get rolled, the truth is teams get rolled when the matchmaker fails to do it job correctly, and premade teams are the wild card and root cause in those situations.

What we are all hanging our hopes on is community warfare. PGI understands that the matchmaker (and population) is woefully inadequate to support balanced matches where premade groups are concerned, but having contested planets with strategic values is a great way to have the community become its own matchmaker. The most lucrative planets will be contested by the best teams, it won't take long for players to figure out what they can take and hold. While solo pilots can fill the cracks wherever they see fit, maybe seeking openings in high risk/reward engagements, or casually vying for low value planets, or maybe a solaris FFA-style environment.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 16 March 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Sandpit]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 16 March 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

That is incorrect. Premade groups by their very nature ignore Elo boundaries and confound the Matchmaker. A perfect example of this is 12-man premades, where there are exactly 0 PUGs to blame everything on. These matches frequently result in steamroll stomps, this is because the matchmaker has less control over the skill level of the pilots involved. This is part of the reason that the 12-man is desolate, and at any given time you may "fail to find match" 3+ times in a row.

I am all for having a solo-only queue, a group-only queue, and a competitive queue (12-man). But your post was inaccurate, and only attempts to single out solo players as the reason teams get rolled, the truth is teams get rolled when the matchmaker fails to do it job correctly, and premade teams are the wild card and root cause in those situations.

What we are all hanging our hopes on is community warfare. PGI understands that the matchmaker (and population) is woefully inadequate to support balanced matches where premade groups are concerned, but having contested planets with strategic values is a great way to have the community become its own matchmaker. The most lucrative planets will be contested by the best teams, it won't take long for players to figure out what they can take and hold. While solo pilots can fill the cracks wherever they see fit, maybe seeking openings in high risk/reward engagements, or casually vying for low value planets, or maybe a solaris FFA-style environment.

Except that if you have more groups rolling around it has an easier time matching. It can also be easily fixed by doing what I suggested earlier. The highest Elo in the group is used instead of the average. That means instead of high Elo players being able to group up with low Elo players and game the system, those lower Elo players will have to step their game up and play at a higher level instead of vice versa.

So that solves any wildcard issues when dealing with groups. I've also given tons of other ways to prevent that and if I (who is not a professional programmer) can come up with a myriad of solutions to that I refuse to believe PGI cannot

[Roadbeer]

Doesn't matter,
"Nobody wants them to take time creating a group queue when it'll take away development cycles from Clans and CW"
-Paraphrased from Russ Bullock, NGNG Podcast #105a

So, now, we'll have the free/premium private matches, where
1. We don't know if the lobby will function in a way that will allow us to search for groups to drop against, or if we'll have to use 3rd party systems like TS or chat rooms to find opponents.
2. We don't know of we'll be able to earn rewards in the private matches like Cbills, XP and achievements.

Sounds like that there is yet another layer of hoops put in between groups and the game space, and no definitive answers on whether we'll be rewarded for jumping through these hoops, or if it's going to be,
"you can PUG or you can play with your friends, but if you want to earn CBills and XP, you are going to PUG, because we need to justify how badly we've screwed up our playerbase"

[Sandpit]

Roadbeer, on 16 March 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Doesn't matter,
"Nobody wants them to take time creating a group queue when it'll take away development cycles from Clans and CW"
-Paraphrased from Russ Bullock, NGNG Podcast #105a

So, now, we'll have the free/premium private matches, where
1. We don't know if the lobby will function in a way that will allow us to search for groups to drop against, or if we'll have to use 3rd party systems like TS or chat rooms to find opponents.
2. We don't know of we'll be able to earn rewards in the private matches like Cbills, XP and achievements.

Sounds like that there is yet another layer of hoops put in between groups and the game space, and no definitive answers on whether we'll be rewarded for jumping through these hoops, or if it's going to be,
"you can PUG or you can play with your friends, but if you want to earn CBills and XP, you are going to PUG, because we need to justify how badly we've screwed up our playerbase"

Well unfortunately for them if we are right, the money will start dwindling. Probably not at first due to clan packs but long-term the sustainability just won't be there. I've already decided to take clan money and put it into other games. Timber Wolf is great and all but not much point if I can't play in CW and I've got noone to play alongside of in the first place.

[Chemie]

I figure there will be a second clan pack, either right away in June or wait until late fall for xmas. Then what? After founders, phoenix, and 2 clan packs, with 100 mechs to choose from, will they still keep coming back with more mech packs and will people buy? They have most of their team dedicated to making mechs (which is why other features and content have been lacking) and this is all they can do but after 100 mechs, you kind of get to "what's the point". I think things die after clan pack #2 unless CW is crazy good (which I doubt from what they posted with their "stop all team play" bias)

Edited by Chemie, 17 March 2014 - 03:20 AM.

[Sandpit]

Chemie, on 17 March 2014 - 03:20 AM, said:

I figure there will be a second clan pack, either right away in June or wait until late fall for xmas. Then what? After founders, phoenix, and 2 clan packs, with 100 mechs to choose from, will they still keep coming back with more mech packs and will people buy? They have most of their team dedicated to making mechs (which is why other features and content have been lacking) and this is all they can do but after 100 mechs, you kind of get to "what's the point". I think things die after clan pack #2 unless CW is crazy good (which I doubt from what they posted with their "stop all team play" bias)

Well that's the thing. The solo type casual player aren't the ones that typically drop hundreds of dollars on stuff like this. Sure there's a few but most of that kind of money comes from units and large groups. That's the way it is with almost all of your MMO style games. Communities support long-term, casual spend sporadic and inconsistent but contribute just the same. Good luck getting PGI to understand that apparently though

[wanderer]

Quote

6,284 different threads about Matchmaker, and you feel the need to turn this into one?

Considering we're talking about how and why players group (or not) - yes.

This is how PGI believes the game should be played right now- one team is target practice for the other one, resulting in constant mismatches, lack of competitive play, and regular roflstomping in PUG hell. While yes,we need to address better options for group play- this kind of mismatching also needs to end in the process.

That is, it's part of the reason MWO's player count keeps dropping and also needs to be addressed. It's not just ELO predictions of who's going to win or lose- it's basically throwing the matchups and chucking newbies into matches they have no reason to be in. That's just the most graphic example I could find.

Groups need their own queue. Newer players need their own queue with a separate ELO rating that requires them to hit exceptional levels of "newbie skill" to be placed in the regular ELO system. Single players need to be able to select whether they're available for "filler" in group queuing. That bit about the matchmaker? It's to make the point that we need to keep newbie out of the regular selection cycle entirely until they rise above their noobish peers. Otherwise, it seems their only purpose is to sabotage a team with easy target practice for the other side.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 18 March 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Newer players need their own queue with a separate ELO rating

I've said this since CB. This right here would alleviate a LOT of the MM woes. Teams wouldn't have to try and carry new players through a tough fight and new players would be able to learn the game without fighting off vets (pugs or otherwise).

[Supersmacky]

wanderer, on 18 March 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

Groups need their own queue. Newer players need their own queue....

100% Absolutely correct. If new player experience AND keeping existing player base (while also promoting team play) is important to PGI, this is what they need to do. Otherwise they are just going to cycle new players and lose existing players and groups until the game dies.

[Sandpit]

Supersmacky, on 18 March 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

100% Absolutely correct. If new player experience AND keeping existing player base (while also promoting team play) is important to PGI, this is what they need to do. Otherwise they are just going to cycle new players and lose existing players and groups until the game dies.

Yup, it amazes me how PGI (and a few others) think 4 man group limits are somehow going to stop roflstomps. It's not. I'm not even going to go into how solo vet pugs are going to stomp new players and have nothing to do with group sizes.

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 18 March 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Yup, it amazes me how PGI (and a few others) think 4 man group limits are somehow going to stop roflstomps. It's not. I'm not even going to go into how solo vet pugs are going to stomp new players and have nothing to do with group sizes.

A vet will (theoretically) be in the 1500+ Elo bracket, and will never run into a new player.

And if a vet is rocking out in the 1000-1500 Elo bracket... they won't exactly be stomping on new players anyway.

[Sandpit]

Heffay, on 18 March 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

A vet will (theoretically) be in the 1500+ Elo bracket, and will never run into a new player.

And if a vet is rocking out in the 1000-1500 Elo bracket... they won't exactly be stomping on new players anyway.

Uhm Vet =/= skill

A vet in the 1000-1500 bracket is STILL going to have a huge advantage over new players learning the game and playing in trial mechs. Period.

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 18 March 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

Uhm Vet =/= skill

A vet in the 1000-1500 bracket is STILL going to have a huge advantage over new players learning the game and playing in trial mechs. Period.

No, he won't. If a vet has an 1100 Elo, he's not going to be stomping anyone. Especially if he got there in his 733C.

If the new player can't support his intro 1100 Elo, he'll rapidly filter down into the 0-1000 bracket, where even if he does run into a vet in his 733C, that will be *no* problem for him at all.

That is the beauty of Elo.

[Sandpit]

Heffay, on 18 March 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

No, he won't. If a vet has an 1100 Elo, he's not going to be stomping anyone. Especially if he got there in his 733C.

If the new player can't support his intro 1100 Elo, he'll rapidly filter down into the 0-1000 bracket, where even if he does run into a vet in his 733C, that will be *no* problem for him at all.

That is the beauty of Elo.

Dude, you're being either very obtuse, playing devil's advocate, or just argumentative. There are veteran players out there that aren't "good" enough to hit upper levels of the Elo bracket. There is no way a new player that has no experience with the game and/or Btech is going to do well against vets that are experienced in optimized mechs. It simply isn't going to stop roflstomps.

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 18 March 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Dude, you're being either very obtuse, playing devil's advocate, or just argumentative. There are veteran players out there that aren't "good" enough to hit upper levels of the Elo bracket. There is no way a new player that has no experience with the game and/or Btech is going to do well against vets that are experienced in optimized mechs. It simply isn't going to stop roflstomps.

Dude, if you think a guy piloting the latest meta 733C and has an Elo of 1100 after over 1000 games is going to stomp new player, you're just plain wrong. He's just a horrible player taking advantage of a great mech to barely be able to compete against a new player in a trial mech.

If that new player is actually bad, he'll filter out of that bracket in about 5 matches and never have to see him again, until he gets his own highlander

Edited by Heffay, 18 March 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Sandpit]

Heffay, on 18 March 2014 - 09:58 AM, said:

Dude, if you think a guy piloting the latest meta 733C and has an Elo of 1100 after over 1000 games is going to stomp new player, you're just plain wrong. He's just a horrible player taking advantage of a great mech to barely be able to compete against a new player in a trial mech.

If that new player is actually bad, he'll filter out of that bracket in about 5 matches and never have to see him again, until he gets his own highlander

and if you think a new player in his first game in a trial mech that has ZERO idea about the game mechanics, weapon systems, etc. is going to walk in and stomp on a vet in a completely customized and optimized mech, then your'e mistaken sir. If this were a more "traditional" shooter with basic mechanics that universally translate (IE, pick a gun and shoot) I might agree with you. That's simply not going to be the case here.

I cannot understand why anyone would argue against giving new players a more "friendly" environment for the first 25 games while they learn how to pilot mechs instead of dropping them in with vets who have played Btech for decades.

[Supersmacky]

ELO in its current state is a pretty poor thing to appeal to since, from my observations, it tends to be a crap shoot anyway. Good idea, but doubt it works as intended based on my experience in game.

And, yes, a vet player that knows the maps, knows heat management and has a general familiarity with what works and doesn't in this game but lacks the finesse to get into a 1500+ bracket still has a huge advantage over the new player that does not. Yes, that one new player might filter down, but others will be their to replace him and the cycle will repeat. My own experience from my first weeks of game play support that. So, I believe what Sandpit stated still holds true. Taking advantage of a meta-mech or not, the experienced mediocre player still has the advantage over the good new player even if it is only a temporary thing.

[Sandpit]

Supersmacky, on 18 March 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

ELO in its current state is a pretty poor thing to appeal to since, from my observations, it tends to be a crap shoot anyway. Good idea, but doubt it works as intended based on my experience in game.

And, yes, a vet player that knows the maps, knows heat management and has a general familiarity with what works and doesn't in this game but lacks the finesse to get into a 1500+ bracket still has a huge advantage over the new player that does not. Yes, that one new player might filter down, but others will be their to replace him and the cycle will repeat. My own experience from my first weeks of game play support that. So, I believe what Sandpit stated still holds true. Taking advantage of a meta-mech or not, the experienced mediocre player still has the advantage over the good new player even if it is only a temporary thing.

Well it also discounts the fact that if there happen to be a small population of players on at the time it will stretch the acceptable Elo matching to find opponents. That means it doesn't have to be a "bad" player to be matched up with a new player

[Heffay]

Sandpit, on 18 March 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I cannot understand why anyone would argue against giving new players a more "friendly" environment for the first 25 games while they learn how to pilot mechs instead of dropping them in with vets who have played Btech for decades.

A tutorial would be fine. Teach them how to fight, then let them queue up *as it exists now*.

Keep in mind that that noob will have his own 1100 rated 733C on his side as well, in all likelihood. And the 733C we were talking about will have his own new players. And at the end of the day, each team still has roughly a 50% chance of winning, assuming their Elo is consistent.

Because remember: This is a team game, and you win or lose based on how your team does. And if you win enough, you go to the next bracket.

Edited by Heffay, 18 March 2014 - 10:35 AM.