504 replies to this topic

[Ryoken]

Their numbers simply are skrewed. If they do not allow teamplay it is no wonder they do not observe it...

It's not that there are no 5+ player teams out there, they simply are not allowed to play!

Well let them cater the occasional pugs and lets watch this game go to hell...

[Johnny Reb]

RG Notch, on 27 February 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

Unless it can be monetized up front everything gets backburnered here.

No Doubt! And I left getting more hats for this over a year!

[Evil Ed]

I like the fact that some are getting on the right track on how to interpret this data (not the same as statistics, statistics you get by interpreting data and 84% is data). First, why is 84% of all launches solo? For me: I sometimes want to have a few quick matches (that becomes one more... and one more...). I'd like to mess around im mechlab testing builds solo (not that much lately due to UI 2.0). I'm XP-grinding and want many drops, often quiting match when I die and cycle thru a couple of mechs. I train in solo on things like aiming. See? I'm a big contributor to the solo-stats, with close to 9000 played matches, probably 80-90% in solo.
Why do I play this game? Because I love the 12-mans. I like 4-mans. I would not play this game at all if it was solo only, or if discouraging premades getting even worse. Still - I'm a big contributor to the data misinterpited by some to show that group play is negligable and not prefered.
Also, it has to be clairified if 84% of all players is solo - or if it is clicks on launch, where a 12-man is 1 launch and equal in the stats as 1 solo launch one 12-man and one solo player launching result in 92%-8% or 50%-50%?). I'm leaning towards the later, because I really can't see where all 12 solo vs. 12 solo is going on to compensate for the premades I see and participate in. After 9000 matches one tends to keeping track of names and who use to drop together...

More interesting data to see and interpret: How many players do, or don't, during a week participate in a premade 2/3/4-man or 12-man? Compairing this and the 84%-data would really tell us something about the playerbase, what they want and the state of this game.

Edited by Evil Ed, 28 February 2014 - 03:00 AM.

[moneyBURNER]

If that 84% stat is based on launches, then a 4-man group launch and 4 solo launches would equal 5 launches, where 80% are solo, but 50% of the players are actually grouped. Then consider that groups are probably made up of the 'more serious'/'less casual' players at higher levels of skill/Elo, and that would align with my experience of regularly seeing multiple recognizeable groups in most matches.

[Warrior UK]

RichAC, on 27 February 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

They are coming out with private matches soon hopefully. You can read about it on the forums, I hope units start having their own private tourneys.

Because of low player bases, some games have to force people to play both sides sometimes. The matchmaker has to include everyone. Hopefully it doesn't get that bad. Just have to stick with the game man, till all the wining anonymous carebears disappear and it hopefully grows. Hopefully...

Yeah your right but you have to pay for the restriction to be lifted in one mode of the private matches, the other is just what we have now, just as long winded which I doubt many will get going after the first three to six months to if any by the time CW comes out and they are going to base their new data after the module release on all drops made, for any tweaks, to get a balance as they see fit, GOD man wake up!.....

[Tw1stedMonkey]

moneyBURNER, on 28 February 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

If that 84% stat is based on launches, then a 4-man group launch and 4 solo launches would equal 5 launches, where 80% are solo, but 50% of the players are actually grouped. Then consider that groups are probably made up of the 'more serious'/'less casual' players at higher levels of skill/Elo, and that would align with my experience of regularly seeing multiple recognizeable groups in most matches.

No, a 4 man "launch" still counts as 4 launches for the 4 man launch tally. I can't possibly believe that even PGI would make such a elementary mistake in their data. Remember that not everyone plays on the same tier of ELO... 4 mans tend to go to higher ELO because of the innate advantages they bring and usually are composed of veteran players. Newer players probably (read: hopefully) don't see as many 4 mans and such in the lower ELO tiers. This would lead to your observations that many matches you play in have 4 mans despite the statistics If you happen to be higher in ELO.

[Ordellus]

OP is confused... it WAS a team oriented game

Now it's MechHalo: Cashshop with COD consumables...

and it attracts that kind of player.

[Amsro]

Jman5, on 27 February 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

In order to draw that conclusion you would need at the bear minimum 2 data sets. As far as I know this is the only time PGI has released a metric like this. Why are you certain that this is trending toward more pugging and that it will continue once community warfare arrives?

Because until this recent data was released even PGI was singing the tune that the MAJORITY of players were dropping in groups.

Directly from the hand that feeds.

This is a new low in team dynamics to be sure, and the proposed "fix" will cement team play in the gutter.

Edit; Just yesterday, I lanced up with a few from the Buckminster Gaurds, 2 more logged on and it was 6. Attempted sync drops put us on opposite teams 5 out of 6 matches. Entertaining but why not let those 6 just team up.

This consistant scenario where 5-11 players are online but cannot play together for the lack of 12 doesn't make sense.

FIX IT!

Edited by Amsro, 06 March 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[costi]

Actually, IMHO the fact that 80+% of players are PUGs shouldn't be suprising - if you looked at other similar games the numbers would probably be similar. The problem is that MWO population is rather small, so the 16% in teams means much less people than, say, WoT.

Also, MWO does not encourage team play in any way. Chat sucks and after so many years, we still don't have quick comm keys like Attack/Defend/Follow Me/Help etc. The social interface is a mess. No wonder that people just don't bother.

[Amsro]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 02 March 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

No, a 4 man "launch" still counts as 4 launches for the 4 man launch tally. I can't possibly believe that even PGI would make such a elementary mistake in their data. Remember that not everyone plays on the same tier of ELO... 4 mans tend to go to higher ELO because of the innate advantages they bring and usually are composed of veteran players. Newer players probably (read: hopefully) don't see as many 4 mans and such in the lower ELO tiers. This would lead to your observations that many matches you play in have 4 mans despite the statistics If you happen to be higher in ELO.

This is all wrong, its % of launches. As stated on the Chart. Either way even if there data is correct, it shows a complete failure in excuting a multiplayer TEAM game.

If Elo does anything to help the game or not is still yet to be determined. So far the Average Elo type Matchmaking seems to put New and Experienced players in the same match consistently. This is proven to me time and time again. Matchmaker is NOT working as intended. Niether is Elo. I'm not the only one of this opinion.

[Supersmacky]

It has been said and I will say it again: if you don't capture/support clans/guilds/units/team in your MMO your game is doomed. If I want to play solo, I will just get and play a game designed for that. This is true in WoT, LotR, WoW, Aces High, EVE, you name it. If the solo experience on this game wasn't such a difficult one for new players, then maybe it would be different. But it isn't and the game is clearly one that lends itself to working as a team. It is about time that the PGI put the tools in the game that support teaming (lobby, open group sizes, voice coms, quick commands, etc). Trying to sync drop is a completely outdated concept. Using type only communication in game goes back to the 90s. Limiting group sizes for a game the really begs for good team work is counter-intuitive.

That said, I love the game and am hoping that things will improve. I want them to improve. Everyone benefits from it improving. It is unfortunately my feeling that PGI really wants to do it the way they want and not the way players are asking for. I have seen that kill many o' game in all my years and would hate to see it happen to MWO.

[King of the Woad]

Here's the rub: if they balance Mech A and Mech B, they are homogenizing for PUG. If they don't, they should be promoting teamwork.

They are going to kill synch drops altogether as an attempt to not homogenize all the mechs. In so doing, they are clear that their priorities, and therefore cash flow, are aimed at holding together a game but aiming it clearly at solo drops.

They have to make one of a plethora of choices. This is the one they are making.

[Sandpit]

The person interpreting the statistical data doesn't understand HOW to interpret that data. I don't know who it is but it's not hard for anyone with ANY kind of statistical background to understand why the data has changed and that it's not a simple 14% of the population that drops in groups.

Groups have dwindled because limitations were imposed on group sizes. that creates a trend of people that HAVE to drop solo, not because they WANT to drop solo. It shouldn't take a college degree to understand that after a year of limitations on group sizes that of course your numbers and statistics are going to change because PGI LIMITED GROUP SIZES not because players don't want to drop in groups but because they CAN'T. It's really that simple

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Sandpit, on 07 March 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

The person interpreting the statistical data doesn't understand HOW to interpret that data. I don't know who it is but it's not hard for anyone with ANY kind of statistical background to understand why the data has changed and that it's not a simple 14% of the population that drops in groups.

Groups have dwindled because limitations were imposed on group sizes. that creates a trend of people that HAVE to drop solo, not because they WANT to drop solo. It shouldn't take a college degree to understand that after a year of limitations on group sizes that of course your numbers and statistics are going to change because PGI LIMITED GROUP SIZES not because players don't want to drop in groups but because they CAN'T. It's really that simple

I find it a little presumptuous that many of the posters in this thread feel that because the data does not support their personal cause that it was erroneous or misleading.

PGI chose drops because it is a more meaningful statistic that population. There may be 500 people who install the game one time and never play again, should those statistics be as relevant as 5 players who each played 200 games in a month? Launches is a good aggregate a metric of player who play once a month and players who play 4 hours a day. Could they have used a different metric like time played? Sure but the result may have been identical.

Your conclusion that when players cannot play in 5-11 man groups they instead drop solo doesn’t make sense to me. You are suggesting that 7 players who cannot drop as a seven man group have instead been dropping as seven individuals and not as a 3 man and 4 man team?

The one very significant thing you mention, which is worth investigating is: What caused the shift in player preference between group play (as PGI stated months ago) and solo play (the most recent metric). Was it changes in group mechanics? Or player attrition? Or an large influx of new players? Or simply player preference?

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 07 March 2014 - 12:45 PM.

[WarHippy]

Sandpit, on 07 March 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

The person interpreting the statistical data doesn't understand HOW to interpret that data. I don't know who it is but it's not hard for anyone with ANY kind of statistical background to understand why the data has changed and that it's not a simple 14% of the population that drops in groups.

Groups have dwindled because limitations were imposed on group sizes. that creates a trend of people that HAVE to drop solo, not because they WANT to drop solo. It shouldn't take a college degree to understand that after a year of limitations on group sizes that of course your numbers and statistics are going to change because PGI LIMITED GROUP SIZES not because players don't want to drop in groups but because they CAN'T. It's really that simple

Let's not forget the statistical outliers that may prefer to drop in groups but are dropping solo to grind c-bills because it is more efficient to do so, or the people dropping solo while waiting for their group to log on. Even if it truly was 84% of players dropping solo it does not mean that is what they want to be doing, or that is what they prefer. The data is vague, and like you said not surprising because when you make things more difficult and tedious to do people migrate away from it.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

WarHippy, on 07 March 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Let's not forget the statistical outliers that may prefer to drop in groups but are dropping solo to grind c-bills because it is more efficient to do so, or the people dropping solo while waiting for their group to log on. Even if it truly was 84% of players dropping solo it does not mean that is what they want to be doing, or that is what they prefer. The data is vague, and like you said not surprising because when you make things more difficult and tedious to do people migrate away from it.

The problem I have with this "what if" scenarios and conspiracy theories is that they don't address the point you are trying to make. If you want 5-11 matches petition for that, don't try to attack the data, recognize that you are in the minority, but that even as a minority withing the community, your desires and ideas for a better game are just as valid as anyone's.

[Sandpit]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 March 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Your conclusion that when players cannot play in 5-11 man groups they instead drop solo doesn’t make sense to me. You are suggesting that 7 players who cannot drop as a seven man group have instead been dropping as seven individuals and not as a 3 man and 4 man team?

No, not at all

What I'm suggesting is that when we have a 4man and a 5th jumps on they HAVE to drop solo if there's noone else to drop with or there's noone on they WANT to drop with. You're discounting this aspect which is specifically what I'm referring to. I could have been a bit clearer there though. It also completely discounts that if you have the 7 you mentioned that those two groups cannot play with one another. That means they're dropping groups but still can't play with their buddies.

I'm not disputing the data they used. I'm saying they have seriously misinterpreted the data. There's a huge difference.
4 out of 5 dentists recommend x gum

That's a pretty common statistic thrown around. Is that accurate though? Well.........
What if the question posed to the dentists was
"Which gum would you suggest?"
or
"Would you suggest a gum?"

There's a huge difference in the bias of the two questions I just proposed. Then you have to see WHY those 4 dentists chose that gum. It's about understanding the data. PGI just isn't in my opinion.

The statistical analysis is skewed because they don't take into consideration the correlation between group limitations and more solo players now than before the group limitations.

84% is NOT an accurate representation of solo drops. I drop solo lots of times when I'm just wanting to try out builds, just have time for a few quick games, etc. That does NOT mean that I'm a solo player lone wolf type. The same player dropping into games could be counted multiple times in different sections. They might drop solo, then group up, then do a 12 man as more players from their unit join.

I can see all of these factors even with the minimal data they've released. I can see it because I DO have an understanding of statistics beyond simple percentages. I can also understand why 84% is completely wrong. By wrong I mean it's being misunderstood. There's very rarely a hard number when dealing with stats. You can't simply say

"Well we're taking this item off the menu because even though it was the most popular and most sold product for a year but then we limited the number we were going to sell. Now a year later it doesn't sell as many units because we limited the number sold per day."

See how that is a fallacy and would be taking an item off of a menu due to lower sales after limiting the number you're going to sell? That's very similar to what we have with PGI at the moment. They're making a decision based off of a bad interpretation of the data, not because the data itself is bad.

This is a very simplistic and basic idea of how stats and statisticians work when it comes to data sets and how even good data can be biased, misunderstood, misrepresented, etc.

Agent 0 Fortune, on 07 March 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

The problem I have with this "what if" scenarios and conspiracy theories is that they don't address the point you are trying to make. If you want 5-11 matches petition for that, don't try to attack the data, recognize that you are in the minority, but that even as a minority withing the community, your desires and ideas for a better game are just as valid as anyone's.

This is where you're misunderstanding. We're not attacking the data, we're pointing out that the data is being interpreted very poorly.

[zolop]

Agree the data being mis-interpreted of 84%.of players dropping solo must mean nearly al mechwarriors want to drop alone. It is instead more of the lines of because of the limitation of group sizes limiting their choices. Why would any large clan or semi large clan for any matter want to invest time into a game that punishes for them having a large group? Instead competitive / larger clans are put on a island, because they seemed to totally forget group limit sizes...But this again could've been solved by using competitive que to have any group size go with a team. I really with PGI had much more forethought... Competitive clans playerbase tend to spend more money on F2P games then casual players so it would be a win win for everyone... I really hope the group module doesn't force clan to play with only groups of 4 for CW, would defeat the point for have a clan. As we currently have been informed have a group with more than 4, the players must start a private match but that does not effect CW.. This is some of the reasons why I am still very hesitate to spend any more money on MWO,, even with sales.

In relation to me being part of the 84%....
I used to be in a clan a while back, but because the group limitations forcing us to find 12 people if we play more than 4 was really frustrating with no alternative for clans to use besides Sync Dropping.. I am in a clan no more, dropping solo because these issues. As one of the 84% I would like to rejoin a clan, but the game seems to be built for low group number (<=4) PUG drops. Its ironic we have the Battlegrid tools for a commander to command lances yet its really frustrating to get 12 people together at the same time (so sync dropping happens instead).

Edited by zolop, 07 March 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[Sandpit]

zolop, on 07 March 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Competitive clans playerbase tend to spend more money on F2P games then casual players

I have completely stayed away from this point because I know people will just cling to it and try to misrepresent it. I agree though, generally speaking groups, units, clans, etc. players who are more invested in the game due to relationships with online gaming buddies and such are much more apt to spend money at a steadier and higher rate than the player who just wants to drop once in a while and shoot stuff.

Every game I've ever spent money on beyond the initial purchase (IE dlc and such) is not because of the game itself but because I've found people I enjoy playing with, not because of the game's merit. Great games are great but for me personally I have more fun in a game when I've got people I can shoot the breeze with, discuss, debate, talk smack to, etc. which means I play it longer and as such wind up spending more money on it.

[Artgathan]

Notice that they say 84% of launches are solo. People misinterpret this as being 84% of players.

Being launches, the low amount of team launches can easily be explained. Consider that if 4 people launch solo, that counts as 4 individual launches, whereas if 4 people drop in a group, that counts as 1 group launch. Based on this, we can work backwards to figure out what percentage of players (IE: 4 players dropping in a group is adjusted to count for 4 group launches) are dropping as what:

• 2 Man - 8% -> 16%
  
• 3 Man - 4% -> 12%
  
• 4 Man - 4% -> 16%
  
• Solo: 100 - 12 - 16 - 16 = 56%

Assuming, of course that the data PGI presented has not already been adjusted.