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84% Of Players Pug In A Team Oriented Game?

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#161 Supersmacky

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 04:30 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:


The "evidence" I have is PGI's metrics. And the firm belief that PGI is not "out to get those darn pre-made players". I agree that the metrics are open to interpretation, my interpretation is that the decisions PGI made with regards to the data are for the health of the game and community as a whole, and not to beguile the unwashed masses.


Again, their metrics do not show clearly anything and you misrepresent by stating that my position is they are out to get pre-mades. You still hold to solo-by-choice it the majority without any credible substantiation. If you believe that PGI is lily-white and not trying to support their decisions by presenting metrics that justify their design choices, you are naive. Do I think they are "out to get" anyone? No. Do I think they want the game to be the way they want it and not what people are asking for, yes. Making people PAY for the 'privileged' to play a game in a manner that should already be available for a game that is all about team work is ridiculous. Trying to justify that by providing metrics that are horribly skewed borders on dishonesty. You said you can't defend their metrics, then stop doing it.

#162 Novakaine

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 05:32 PM

View PostHarcourt Mudd, on 08 March 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:


This might be my first post but may I ask you this, what if you got your free pug drops but that they didn't count towards CW. How about if you had to pay to join a Solo Que for drops that counted towards CW. Would you still be so flippant?

What I have learned (by reading these forums) is that there used to be full drop groups to maximum size so in fact groups larger than 4 have lost a lot. I can see where groups have an advantage but I can also see how having group size limited like this is a detractor to the enjoyment of the game.

This isn't advertised as an MMO or a Sandbox. It's advertised as a TEAM Game but there are none of the tools for a team unles you go looking for them from a third party site. The only social experience you get from PGI is that of stepping on the pointy end of a rake and having the handle swing up and smash you in the face. I have explored a few of the player sites and I have found that being in those, once you break the ice with the people there, are a much more enjoyable place to play this game from and it lends itself perfectly to team play. PGI seems to be doing everything it can to kill it's own game.

That is all


+5's friend +5's

#163 Novakaine

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 05:39 PM

View PostSandpit, on 07 March 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yup, I have never seen a team based game that tries so hard to discourage grouping and participating in the metagame. It really seems like they simply don't want groups to participate in CW and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay them just to play the exact same game others are enjoying for free simply because they drop as a lone wolf.

I don't even understand why they bother having any kind of faction sections of the forums, etc. What's the point of having units, forums, communication, etc. if you can't use that to help coordinate an entire group of players to participate in something like CW.

"Ok guys, we can't group up and we can't coordinate so when you hit launch do you best to drop on a planet we need strategically and keep your fingers crossed that you get a team comprised of players that aren't farming cbills at the time or that disco because they don't like a map leaving the rest of the solo players a man or two down, or better yet hope you don't have 1-2 griefers that just want to disrupt your game by TKing because you now have no way of controlling your team beyond 3 other players"

That above statement makes about as much sense to me as the decision regarding groups


That's exactly what they are doing.
No teams, no factions then there's no need for any kind of real CW.
Personally I thinks basically still on the PowerPoint myself.
No need to spend money on the design and implement of it.
Beyond a leader board and a map of the Inner Sphere.

#164 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 05:43 PM

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

The data (even if you accept 84% which, to just about anyone who understands stats and data collection, etc. which also happens to be the type of people explaining why that number is wrong) does not show that solo is a majority.
I don't see anyone attacking the data. The data is what it is. The collection and interpretation of that data though is what's being called into question.

That is a very condescending statement. I can fully appreciate the adage “lies, damn lies, and statistics”. But this normally applies to a group with an agenda. The entire foundation of your allegation is based on the premise that PGI either does not understand the metrics they gathered or is intentionally misleading the forum users, neither conclusion holds up under scrutiny.

Ultimately the data is what the data is, and PGI has set this boat to that course. Are you really interested in arguing how they came to that concussion or the course itself?

You are either convinced that PGI has a hidden agenda to undermine the secret majority of 5-11 team players, despite going out of their way to include Premium Private Matches. Or you feel that “total number of launches contain groups vs. total number of launches with solo players”, is a insufficient metric even though PGI does not, and cannot have a metric for 5-11 man groups.

I am a at loss here, what specific metric do you think would support your cause? And how should PGI measure it:
  • Server time per user and whether that player was on a team (which is their cost per game basis)
  • Unique login per match (which doesn’t measure dedicated players vs. looky-loo’s)
  • PPCs fired per match (because someone will say meta is relevant)

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

One other point on the whole premade thing. You know one thing I've noticed? I never…
Ever… see this question and/or statement posed by anyone except forum members while in game.
Want to know why? Well because players who don't join units, don't visit the forums, etc. have no idea what a premade is. They don't complain. They don't wail and flail. Wonder what that is.........?


I almost skipped this, and I don’t want this to detract from the current discourse but I found it amusing.
You are either suggesting that new players don’t care that they get PUG stomped, or they are too stupid to realize that they are playing a multiplayer game.

View PostHarcourt Mudd, on 08 March 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

This might be my first post but may I ask you this, what if you got your free pug drops but that they didn't count towards CW. How about if you had to pay to join a Solo Que for drops that counted towards CW. Would you still be so flippant?

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

That's actually an excellent question and idea...
Since casual players just want to shoot and stomp why not reverse the roles? Solos can have the queue that doesn't participate in CW. They can drop for no rewards, etc. They can opt in to participate in CW but they'll have to do it alongside premades. That really is a pretty good idea....


I saved this for last because despite being irrelevant to the current discussion, it is a brilliant idea. Of course new players in the solo-casual league need to earn C-Bills and XPs (to by mechs and skills), but the concept of group-play being required for Loyalty points and earn planetary income is awesome and could actually encourage solo players to fill out a voluntary queue.

#165 Novakaine

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 05:52 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

That is a very condescending statement. I can fully appreciate the adage “lies, damn lies, and statistics”. But this normally applies to a group with an agenda. The entire foundation of your allegation is based on the premise that PGI either does not understand the metrics they gathered or is intentionally misleading the forum users, neither conclusion holds up under scrutiny.

Ultimately the data is what the data is, and PGI has set this boat to that course. Are you really interested in arguing how they came to that concussion or the course itself?

You are either convinced that PGI has a hidden agenda to undermine the secret majority of 5-11 team players, despite going out of their way to include Premium Private Matches. Or you feel that “total number of launches contain groups vs. total number of launches with solo players”, is a insufficient metric even though PGI does not, and cannot have a metric for 5-11 man groups.

I am a at loss here, what specific metric do you think would support your cause? And how should PGI measure it:
  • Server time per user and whether that player was on a team (which is their cost per game basis)
  • Unique login per match (which doesn’t measure dedicated players vs. looky-loo’s)
  • PPCs fired per match (because someone will say meta is relevant)


I almost skipped this, and I don’t want this to detract from the current discourse but I found it amusing.
You are either suggesting that new players don’t care that they get PUG stomped, or they are too stupid to realize that they are playing a multiplayer game.




I saved this for last because despite being irrelevant to the current discussion, it is a brilliant idea. Of course new players in the solo-casual league need to earn C-Bills and XPs (to by mechs and skills), but the concept of group-play being required for Loyalty points and earn planetary income is awesome and could actually encourage solo players to fill out a voluntary queue.


You're no mere paltry white knight.
You're the Ultra White Knight.
I just knew there were some out there.
Ya sly dawg!.
Friend me.

#166 Sandpit

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 06:02 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

That is a very condescending statement. I can fully appreciate the adage “lies, damn lies, and statistics”. But this normally applies to a group with an agenda. The entire foundation of your allegation is based on the premise that PGI either does not understand the metrics they gathered or is intentionally misleading the forum users, neither conclusion holds up under scrutiny.

No, you're either misreading, trying to misrepresent, or misunderstanding.

I said their interpretation of the data is wrong. It's that simple

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:



Ultimately the data is what the data is, and PGI has set this boat to that course. Are you really interested in arguing how they came to that concussion or the course itself?

Uhm no

I really want to believe that you're just misunderstanding my intention as opposed to misrepresenting what I said. You've also not noticed the tweets lately where PGI has began backtracking a bit on the data and their plans regarding groups.

#167 Sandpit

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 06:05 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:


I almost skipped this, and I don’t want this to detract from the current discourse but I found it amusing.
You are either suggesting that new players don’t care that they get PUG stomped, or they are too stupid to realize that they are playing a multiplayer game.

uhm ok. No again

I'm pointing out that the forums generate a lot of misinformation and make it easy for new players to jump on a bandwagon or obtain opinionated information that's represented as fact.

I'm also pointing out that players in game don't complain because they don't have the "Well premades are evil" mindset because they don't even know what a premade is a lot of times. They find out what that is through the forums and other players.
You wouldn't walk into a donut shop and say "The donuts were better with the old recipe" if you'd never tasted the old recipe. You'd never even know there was an old recipe if noone told you about it.

#168 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:01 PM

View PostNovakaine, on 08 March 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

You're no mere paltry white knight.
You're the Ultra White Knight.
I just knew there were some out there.
Ya sly dawg!.
Friend me.

Sorry, Friend'ing you would be contrary to my Solo/PUG agenda, but it literally made me LOL, thanks for that.

But seriously I am not a PGI apologist, they make many mistakes and I am more than happy to call them out when they do. But the Launch Module is not a mistake, it is at its essence a solo-player “Bill of Rights”, and that is something I can stand behind as a PUG and PreMade player.

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

No, you're either misreading, trying to misrepresent, or misunderstanding.
I said their interpretation of the data is wrong. It's that simple
Uhm no
I really want to believe that you're just misunderstanding my intention as opposed to misrepresenting what I said. You've also not noticed the tweets lately where PGI has began backtracking a bit on the data and their plans regarding groups.

But what is your end game? If the data is incorrect, misidentified, or worse, fraudulent; what do you expect to gain?

Is your goal to continue to subjugate solo players into 5-11 man matches?
To illuminate PGIs incompetence?
Obviously at this point you could give a shit about group play vs. solo play, what are you after?

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

I'm also pointing out that players in game don't complain because they don't have the "Well premades are evil" mindset because they don't even know what a premade is a lot of times. They find out what that is through the forums and other players.

Just because someone isn’t posting on the forums about an unenjoyable game experience doesn’t mean they don’t quit.

The only possible reason you would possible want to run your 11-man premade against a pug group is self-gratification. And you have argued too hard and I have too much respect for you to think that is the case. Please clarify for me the reason you think an 11-man premade group should play against a team comprised solely of PUGs.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 08 March 2014 - 07:02 PM.


#169 Sandpit

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 08:45 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:



The only possible reason you would possible want to run your 11-man premade against a pug group is self-gratification. And you have argued too hard and I have too much respect for you to think that is the case. Please clarify for me the reason you think an 11-man premade group should play against a team comprised solely of PUGs.

Show me where I said an 11 man premade should play against a team of 12 pugs?

I don't understand why people want to look for something that isn't there. There's no ulterior motive bud. It's simply me wanting to be able to play with friends in a group and shoot other stompy robots. It's me wanting to be able to drop in the same game on the same team with 5 other friends if that's who is currently online instead of picking and choosing who I drop with because of limitations placed on groups.

Too many people want to make more of it than it is.

I'll go through this again as I have many
many
MANY times since CB

Premades are NOT the root cause of stomps. The sooner people realize that the sooner mitigating that kind of game can begin. I have a friend that I talked into playing. he started this week. I haven't introduced him to the forums yet. I haven't dropped with him yet and I haven't given him my opinion on the game yet. He loves it but his exact words to me on the phone today were
"Man, it didn't take me long to figure out this is not like CoD or BF, this is very team oriented and you can't really stomp off on your own and expect to do well. It only takes a couple of players on my team doing that to lose the match. Learning how to do things is really hard though, they need better tutorials"

This is a new player unaffected by forums biases. Within 4 days of playing he's figured that out. He isn't complaining about weapon imbalances, he runs a treb, he really enjoys the game.

Until players start taking a little more ownership to stomps, new players have a better intro to the intricacies of the game, and skill levels are more evenly balanced in matches, you will still have players in the roflstomp situations. They'll never go away completely because individual skill will always be a factor. Limiting group sizes solves none of that. The "new" launch module solves none of that.

It can't solve that because it's the exact same system we have now. It works in the exact same way with the exception of the "rule of 3" which should help even out tonnages. I'm not attacking PGI or anyone else. I'm pointing out that they're making a decision based on faulty information because whoever interpreted the data made a mistake. It's feedback. That's exactly what these forums are for. I don't understand why everyone looks for the worst in everything. Sure there's the "ggclose" crowd. That's not a fair representation of the average player who simply wants to join a team with buddies and play. Premades and PUGs alike have zero control who they drop against.

To accuse premades of wanting to roflstomp just isn't right. It

#170 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 09:46 PM

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

Show me where I said an 11 man premade should play against a team of 12 pugs?

No need if you are suggesting that Solo PUG players are not forced to play against groups larger than 4 then we are in agreement; nothing more need be said.

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

Premades are NOT the root cause of stomps. The sooner people realize that the sooner mitigating that kind of game can begin

I think the healing beings when Premades CANNOT stomp on solo teams. Separate queues is the ONLY solution to that issue.

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

Until players start taking a little more ownership to stomps, new players have a better intro to the intricacies of the game, and skill levels are more evenly balanced in matches, you will still have players in the roflstomp situations.


You are simply suggesting a sink or swim solution, which is absurd when PGI’s goal is to accumulate as many new players as possible, your method amounts placing new players against premade groups of up to 11 players.

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

I don't understand why everyone looks for the worst in everything. Sure there's the "ggclose" crowd. That's not a fair representation of the average player who simply wants to join a team with buddies and play. Premades and PUGs alike have zero control who they drop against.
To accuse premades of wanting to roflstomp just isn't right. It


YES! So much YES!. New players do not want to play against 11 man premade teams. Experienced players do not want to play against premade teams (UNLESS THEY EXPRESSLY CHOOSE TO DO SO).

PGI has made a stance (and supported it with telemetry) that PUG players outnumber (or at least out play) group players. I want competitive player to fight against competitive players IF THEY CHOOSE TO, and for an equitable reward. I do not want solo player forced into the cracks of a 5 v 11 team when they would prefer to play SOLO.

I DO NOT WANT COMPETATIVE PLAYER TO PREY ON SOLO PLAYERS FOR PERSONAL GAIN.

If you can bridge that gap, and support a division between casual (solo) play and competitive (group) play we have similar goals and an understanding. If not, and you think that It is imperative that premade teams be allowed to prey on newbies, pleas explain.

#171 Sandpit

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 10:23 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

premade teams be allowed to prey on newbies, pleas explain.

Here we go with that again

Nobody is preying on anyone. To suggest otherwise is misrepresenting everything about MM and the game in general. When I hit launch I have no control over who I'm up against. I can't prey on anyone for any reason. I can't say ok 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, NOW hit launch because at this moment I know I'll get matches up against joe derp.

Even the ggclose crowd can't prey on new players. Their Elos are way too high to get matches up like that except in extremely rare cases under specific conditions. New players don't start out with a high enough Elo to face that.

It's not a mater of sink or swim. It's a matter of after 50 matches of not doing so well it MIGHT just be a player's individual skill playing more of a part than the game or opponents. So instead of listening to Joe Derp complain that the reason they just lost match number x in a row because of the crappy MM and evil premades, Joe might want to look at things like his own skill, the mech type he's using, loadouts, etc.
Meanwhile New Player B listens to this "crusty veteran who's been here since CB and knows everything that caused their team's loss that didn't involve their own poor play or lack of skill or bad round or poor tactics and teamwork" and decides to visit the forums and jump on the bandwagon because if Joe Derp said it, it MUST be true.

Oh look! here's 50 threads about MM and evil premades! (never mind that it's the same dozen or so players in the same threads and "cute" little alt accounts posing as a new player to lend "credibility" to the thread as opposed to a few hundred separate players) This HAS to be true! I'll agree with them because if it's such a "hot" topic, it must be true! I'll post my agreement with that!
Then the new player continues into the same cycle.

There's a huge difference in all of what I just said and not caring about new players, etc. That's just very disingenuous of you to suggest. I've railed, wailed, flailed, moaned, groaned, complained, suggested, and begged for better tutorials, more information, different queues for new players, in game voip, Lenient mech labs for new players, 2 more free mech bays, starting a cadet school with volunteers to drop with them during their cadet period and help them out, and numerous other things to try and get PGI to better the NPE.

The only thing I, and many others, want is the ability to join up with any number of friends we have online and drop into the game and participate in CW. However PGI chooses to do that is up to them. It's not going to help this game in any way if they don't let me do that for free just as every other player who drops solo. A LOT of units, websites, ts servers, etc. will go away because there's no point anymore. The more competitive and fanatical will stick around because they'll have private matches for privately run leagues. So you'll have less of the "middle of the road" type players who just want to play a video game and have fun with some online buddies (and in many cases R/L firendships), but more of the ggclose type crown. Have fun with that. At this point I'm not really even here for MWO anymore. I'm here for some of the guys I've come to enjoy dropping with. There's plenty of others with the same mindset.

Many of the biggest pushers when it comes to and HAS come to CW since CB are guys like me. It's because we've joined units, plotted the demise of other factions :ph34r: , shot the breeze, talked old war stories from MW2, etc. In other words we've found some kindred spirits we enjoy hanging out with while we shoot the shit outta some stompy robots. To make any other assumptions or assertions about me and the guys like me (who are probably more than you think) is simply false.

If they want to do separate queues where solos could opt into that bucket for 5-11 groups that's fine. It's not going to fix anything. It's actually going to make things worse in my opinion. You'll have fewer players in that solo bucket which means MM will have to stretch out further grabbing more that "ggclose" crowd so have fun with that. Better you deal with that kind of attitude than me :(
You'll also still have the solo "ggclose" type players that will still be in the more "normal" elo ranges which means you'll deal with them more as well and they'll actually wind up playing against new players more often, which will WONDERS for the new player experience then. It will, however, disprove without a doubt that "evil premades" weren't touching them in their no no spots though.
New and casual players won't stick around for that so they'll either leave, join that premade bucket (further causing that queue population dwindle and escalating the experience), or become one of the latest bandwagon threads.

#172 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 10:57 PM

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Here we go with that again

Nobody is preying on anyone. To suggest otherwise is misrepresenting everything about MM and the game in general.


I read thought that block of text if only so noone else has to bear that burden.
In short, you argument is that solo players must be feed into the machine in order to grease the wheels of the group machine is both foolish and irresponsible.

I cannot even fully express my disagreement of your agenda, my vocabulary failes to express my opposition.

I will end with the simple statement that SOLO PLAYERS ARE NOT SUSTENANCE OF PREMADE GROUPS.
If you cannot play this game against opponents of equal skill and number we have reached an impasse.

I am going to further support PGIs simple yet effective solution this issue.

Rather than "call you out" I wish you well in the short term. Hopefully in the next few weeks you gain the skills you need to compete on equitable terms; and if not I hope that CW (community warfare) offers something for you to gnaw on, because it sounds like you wont have the PUGs to feed on.

#173 Sandpit

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 12:28 AM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:


I read thought that block of text if only so noone else has to bear that burden.
In short, you argument is that solo players must be feed into the machine in order to grease the wheels of the group machine is both foolish and irresponsible.

I cannot even fully express my disagreement of your agenda, my vocabulary failes to express my opposition.

I will end with the simple statement that SOLO PLAYERS ARE NOT SUSTENANCE OF PREMADE GROUPS.
If you cannot play this game against opponents of equal skill and number we have reached an impasse.

I am going to further support PGIs simple yet effective solution this issue.

Rather than "call you out" I wish you well in the short term. Hopefully in the next few weeks you gain the skills you need to compete on equitable terms; and if not I hope that CW (community warfare) offers something for you to gnaw on, because it sounds like you wont have the PUGs to feed on.

I like how you completely misrepresented everything I said. gl&gh

#174 Novakaine

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 12:31 AM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:


I read thought that block of text if only so noone else has to bear that burden.
In short, you argument is that solo players must be feed into the machine in order to grease the wheels of the group machine is both foolish and irresponsible.

I cannot even fully express my disagreement of your agenda, my vocabulary failes to express my opposition.

I will end with the simple statement that SOLO PLAYERS ARE NOT SUSTENANCE OF PREMADE GROUPS.
If you cannot play this game against opponents of equal skill and number we have reached an impasse.

I am going to further support PGIs simple yet effective solution this issue.

Rather than "call you out" I wish you well in the short term. Hopefully in the next few weeks you gain the skills you need to compete on equitable terms; and if not I hope that CW (community warfare) offers something for you to gnaw on, because it sounds like you wont have the PUGs to feed on.


Obtuse and obstinate now have a new meaning.
Who really is sitting at their keyboard smirking and plotting to prey on new players?
Nobody.
It's like constantly beating my grandson at chess.
Where's the fun in that all?
However a few months ago when he finally did beat me.
He was overjoyed and I was stunned.
It's a learning curve that people refuse to see here and then blame on the "evil premades."
Took myself a bit of time to learn to play.
I would say ask my friends, but most of them refuse to even pug anymore.
And I can give you exact numbers as to the amount of players my unit had, and the exact reason why they just quit and moved on.
But you'd just purposely misinterpret that and tell me I'm on wrong on what you were not even privy too.
To serve your agenda.
Yeah you're right don't friend me.

Edited by Novakaine, 09 March 2014 - 12:32 AM.


#175 Sandpit

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 12:34 AM

View PostSandpit, on 08 March 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

If they want to do separate queues where solos could opt into that bucket for 5-11 groups that's fine. It's not going to fix anything. It's actually going to make things worse in my opinion.

I guess you can just be chalked up as another forumite who can't accept that other people ahve valid opinions because it's just easier to say "whatever, you're an evil preamde"

I doubt any reasonable person will read what I wrote and take it as "evil premade" just the ones that fall into the extremes I talked about earlier. With that we'll just say good day you can continue twisting words and meanings all you want. Just keep in mind that the only thing you're proving when it comes to that is that you're incapable of accepting that some people jsut want to play with their friends in an online game.

View PostNovakaine, on 09 March 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:


But you'd just purposely misinterpret that and tell me I'm on wrong on what you were not even privy too.
To serve your agenda.
Yeah you're right don't friend me.

Yea, he baited me. I thought he really wanted to have an exchange of ideas or at least wanted a better understanding of where some of the players are coming from but it's apparent he's just another in a long list that can't do that

#176 HeavyRain

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 01:15 AM

"You suck PGI! Let us drop in groups larger than 4! We want to play with our friends!"
"Oh yeah, almost forgot! Let our large groups of friends drop against solo players, not only against similar groups!"
"Right, that's about it, do those two things and we will love you."

#177 Novakaine

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 05:33 AM

View PostHeavyRain, on 09 March 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

"You suck PGI! Let us drop in groups larger than 4! We want to play with our friends!"
"Oh yeah, almost forgot! Let our large groups of friends drop against solo players, not only against similar groups!"
"Right, that's about it, do those two things and we will love you."


That was just silly and totally unnecessary go play COD or something please.

#178 Motroid

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:07 AM

View PostDaggett, on 27 February 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Have you ever thought why this is the case?
The ugly truth is that the majority of playes indeed have little interest to join a premade all the time and rather play solo quite often.

This has several different reasons, be it that you just want to fill the remaining 20minutes until an appointment or that your connection is too bad for simultaneous voip and gaming (a friend of mine has this problem quite often).

And no one of us has the right to question any of those motives and telling them to 'just team up'. :)

So it's totally natural that PGI needs to cater the pugs. They are driving the game. Loose them and you loose your game, it's simple as that.
Of cause that does not mean that premades should not be catered too and i agree that PGI can do a lot more here like giving drop options for teams between 4 and 11 players.

Oh and as mentioned by others, this game's team-building would greatly improve with a global chat.
I can't understand the design decision to hide all chatting in a small 'social'-button.
A good online-game fully integrates it's social features. This means all chats and group-options are always visible unless a player hides them.

This is most important: When using those social features, don't block the rest of the game. It hurts to see that i have to close the chat in order to use the mechlab again. We need to chat without pressing extra buttons so we can do it while navigating the mechlab.


I guess you are doing pugs some injustice here. Those games are not always 'random and meaningless'. Pugs can indeed prove that they play team oriented too, sometimes way better than some premades. What i'm missing here are simply two things:

First:
In theory pugs can self-coordinate really well without saying a single word and without giving any order. It's all a matter of common sense and practice.

There are very basic rules which can lead a team to victory without any plan/strategy.

Some examples:
- Don't scout in your heavy mech, stay always near a group so you don't get steamrolled.
- Don't attack the whole enemy team in your light when they are not distracted by the rest of your team yet or your team can easily close the gap to help.
- When one guy charges in, follow him immediately.
- Unless it's a leeroy jenkins who does this without giving the rest of his team a chance to catch up.
- Only follow charging lights when they are clearly distracting the enemy in front of you to make your push easier.
- Staying together is good, but surrounding the enemy is better. Look out for spots to attack from a different angle but without getting isolated from your mates.
- Avoid chokepoints in large groups. When you see your deathball approching a chokepoint, try to split off. You will be surprised how many will follow you. Lead them to a good flanking position.
- When you see some mates flanking and distracting the enemy, PUSH!
- When flanking, wait for a good opportunity instead of doing a suicide flank with no effect.
- Attack the easy to hit guys first
- Unless they are already disarmed. Don't shoot that weaponless guy to get a kill when there is a target with working weapons around.
- When there are several easy to hit targets, choose the one where others are already firing on.
- Don't overvalue focus fire if the focused target is hard to hit for you and you have the opportunity to easily hit another target.
- Don't chase lights all over the map, even when piloting a light by yourself. He will always try to lure you into a trap.
- The same applies to retreating heavily damaged mechs. Don't get lured around that corner where the whole enemy team is waiting just to get the kill.

The list is endless but each point is so simple and logical that everyone can do it right if he wants to.
And by avoiding those faults a team can work like a machine without saying a single word. The battlegrid is a great tool for speechless organizing.


Second:
As good as self-coordination can work in theory, it sadly fails too often in practice, mostly because of having too much inexperienced players who need to focus on other things like aiming and movement leaving no time for some important details.
So some sorts of planning and advice would greatly help to improve teamplay in pugs so the inexperienced guys get hints on what they can do to contribute.


But currently MWO lacks the tools to do this efficiently.
The chat is way too slow to coordinte a team or even warn them from an enemy you stumbled into.
In the heat of battle you have other things to do than typing. And additionally others are often too distracted to even realize that someone has written something.

What we need are functions to quickly report several things to the team.
In this regard MWO can learn a lot from WOT and LOL.

Those games realized that it is not smart to force the player to open a seperate map window which totally disables them to control their character.
They have the entire map always present instead of MWO's 'partial map' approach.

When i played MWO the first time one of my first questions was: How can i zoom out the battlegrid to show me the whole map. The answer to open a new window to do so was kinda disappointing.

So, when having the entire map always visible, it is a child's play to add a WOT-like 'pinging' function to it.
Single clicking will tell every team-mate that there is something at this location. To expand this i would map a menu to choose a specific 'Ping-type' to the right mouse button. This way you can specify with two clicks if you want to flank via this position, if you spotted an enemy there or if players on this location are too exposed and should get in cover.

When no one takes the position of a lance/company commander, let everyone be able to give orders this way. A team does not need a commander, it only needs good tactical advices at the right time regardless from who.

Together with some predefined chat messages like 'i need help', 'back to base' or 'charge now!' (which of cause should set a ping at the talking player's position), this game can get MUCH more tactical even in pug games with relatively little effort. And without the need of voice comms (which would likely only be filled with useless chatter and flaming).

In the meantime until we get those features, please highlight/ping the player who has typed something in chat (with sound). It helps a lot to know that:
- someone typed something (currently i have a hard time to realize new messages during fighting)
- the position of the spotter. So he just needs to write 'enemy w. ecm spotted' instead of opening the BG, looking up the coordinates and type them. This takes AGES. By knowing the spotter's position it's not hard to imagine the general direction of the spotted enemy. And that's more than enough, because the exact coordinates are quickly invalid and not much worth without knowing the direction the enemy is moving.
- The position of the guy who needs help

QFT
Thanks for the write up, Daggett, really restores some lost faith for the game.

#179 100mile

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 07:45 AM

View PostWillard Phule, on 27 February 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:


And a lot of units only get together for "official practice" nights...then for league play. Kinda like Pool League night on Fridays. Most of the time, everyone just solo drops.

Like I said in that other post, I gave up on dropping in groups with my unit because it cut down on my actual play time. With the new, complicated UI, I end up sitting around in TS for 5 minutes between matches, waiting for everyone to ready up.

All I have to do is load up an Arty strike and I'm ready to go. If I need to switch mechs or tweak my loadout, I drop from the group because I know it's going to take me a while. Then I have to sit around waiting for them to finish their match before I rejoin.

Nah, it's easier just to go solo.

This is why the PUG numbers are at 84%....

Yes to those people who think they are smarter than everyone else in the world (Especially PGI) you can look at statistics 20 different ways and make them come out any way you like...and while I am sure others appreciate your effort to try and make PGI look dishonest or ******** by spinning the numbers to look like you want them too...Your missing the point..PGI set the parameters, PGI actually has access to all the metrics that you don't get to see...there is absolutely no way possible for you to make an"educated guess" or to expound about your superior knowledge, like you do, because you have none unless you work for PGI and put the search parameters in or set up the metrics....None of which you did...you have a right to complain about what they are doing when you don't agree... just do it with out trying to make yourself look superior and without trying to poison the player base against them....

People are to impatient to wait for there team mates...the type of person attracted to this game (or maybe it's just the forums) right now (not all, just the majority) are the self involved everything is supposed to be the way I want it and when i want type person....as is evidenced by the quote I started this with and as evidenced by the majority of the posts on this thread....I don't agree with everything PGI has going right now but as a whole I think they are going in the right direction...just my opinion and prolly not worth that much...would like to point out that am part of a successful unit with over 200 personnel, 85-90% of which are active...just takes a little effort.

#180 Roadbeer

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 09:00 AM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 08 March 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

That is a very condescending statement. I can fully appreciate the adage “lies, damn lies, and statistics”. But this normally applies to a group with an agenda. The entire foundation of your allegation is based on the premise that PGI either does not understand the metrics they gathered...


It's happened before, so he was either wrong then or wrong now...

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