115 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

SMDMadCow, on 10 March 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Except Im not and have never made a claim like that. You are again quoting and confusing me for another poster.

Sorry for the mix up.

Blood Rose, on 10 March 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

Painted Wolf, you really are not listening to any of the feedback that you have been given.

I think you are confusing not accepting a criticism with not listening. I can read your posts, think about it critically, and disagree. This is not the same as ignoring your points, I just don't think your points are valid for reasons I have given.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 10 March 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[RedDragon]

PaintedWolf, on 10 March 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I think you are confusing not accepting a criticism with not listening. I can read your posts, think about it critically, and disagree. This is not the same as ignoring your points, I just don't think your points are valid for reasons I have given.

With due respect... of all the points made in this thread, I think you did not get a single one of them. There are countless good, well thought-out replies here from people who have invested a lot of their precious time to explain everything to you not only once, but twice or even more often because you didn't understand it or just ignored it. And all you are doing is keep on ignoring the feedback here and trying to counter it with anything but logical points or a stringent thought.
I asked you before, I'll ask you again: What exactly do you expect from us? You won't hear that your mech is a good design for the countless reasons we provided already. Following this "discussion" here is really amusing for various reasons, but it's also quite sad that you don't seem to get anything the guys here try to tell you, wasting their time doing so...

[PaintedWolf]

RedDragon, on 10 March 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

With due respect... of all the points made in this thread, I think you did not get a single one of them. There are countless good, well thought-out replies here from people who have invested a lot of their precious time to explain everything to you not only once, but twice or even more often because you didn't understand it or just ignored it. And all you are doing is keep on ignoring the feedback here and trying to counter it with anything but logical points or a stringent thought.
I asked you before, I'll ask you again: What exactly do you expect from us? You won't hear that your mech is a good design for the countless reasons we provided already. Following this "discussion" here is really amusing for various reasons, but it's also quite sad that you don't seem to get anything the guys here try to tell you, wasting their time doing so...

What point did you think I failed to understand exactly? Say it here, and let me repeat it in my own words. If I manage to do so, and then note why I do not think the point is valid, will you then admit the criticism that I am ignoring or not listening to points is baseless?

[RedDragon]

PaintedWolf, on 10 March 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

What point did you think I failed to understand exactly? Say it here, and let me repeat it in my own words. If I manage to do so, and then note why I do not think the point is valid, will you then admit the criticism that I am ignoring or not listening to points is baseless?

Just to pick one because you just quoted it, showing that you obviously didn't get it: I told you that your mech costs so much BV that if you took a larger number of them, your enemy could very well afford to get a drop ship and hot drop his forces right on top of your unit, effectively negating the advantage you'd have with the Arrows. And your response was that following this logic, you could just take some jump ships, because they are even cheaper. This argument is silly on two levels. First, it ignores the main point, which is that your mechs are so expensive your enemy can field units like drop ships to counter every advantage your mechs may have. Even if you had made a logical claim and used other units than jump ships, it would just underline my point: Bringing too expensive units is bad because the enemy can bring the same amount of BV.
Second, your argument that you could field even more jump ships has nothing to do with anything at all because jump ships aren't even fighting units, not to speak of the fact that they can't even influence ground combat at all.

[PaintedWolf]

RedDragon, on 10 March 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Just to pick one because you just quoted it, showing that you obviously didn't get it: I told you that your mech costs so much BV that if you took a larger number of them, your enemy could very well afford to get a drop ship and hot drop his forces right on top of your unit, effectively negating the advantage you'd have with the Arrows. And your response was that following this logic, you could just take some jump ships, because they are even cheaper. This argument is silly on two levels. First, it ignores the main point, which is that your mechs are so expensive your enemy can field units like drop ships to counter every advantage your mechs may have. Even if you had made a logical claim and used other units than jump ships, it would just underline my point: Bringing too expensive units is bad because the enemy can bring the same amount of BV.
Second, your argument that you could field even more jump ships has nothing to do with anything at all because jump ships aren't even fighting units, not to speak of the fact that they can't even influence ground combat at all.

So you are saying my Mechs cost too much BV.

I have noted that BV does not actually represent resources or currency. The most you could argue is that it would not be fair or balanced, for me to bring in my Mechs without letting the enemy bring in way more. This in no way would limit actual Mech production.

That is why the BV of a Jump Ship can be less then that of a Medium Mech.

Now do you understand that BV does not reflect a measurement of resources or currency?

Edited by PaintedWolf, 10 March 2014 - 01:53 PM.

[CarnageINC]

I don't understand why all you guys keep feeding the troll?

It seems nothing anyone can say will change PaintedWolf's narrow thought process on this. He rejects any notion of the BV system and Cbill costs are irrelevant. His narrow thought process does not allow for any form of standardized comparison systems to work. He just clings to thinking his small numbers of mechs and dropships are his saving grace and that they could be effective in any situation. I mean, come on, he's the only right one and were all obviously wrong.

It basically boils down to is he is bullheaded. Stop wasting your time and let him believe his falsehoods, after all this is the internet.

Edited by CarnageINC, 11 March 2014 - 12:57 AM.

[Blood Rose]

PaintedWolf, on 10 March 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I think you are confusing not accepting a criticism with not listening. I can read your posts, think about it critically, and disagree. This is not the same as ignoring your points, I just don't think your points are valid for reasons I have given.

Criticism is a vital component in feedback. When I submit my designs to SolarisVII I EXPECT criticism. I expect people to find weaknesses, points that need to be improved and the such. I get it, and I listen. Then I use what I have learned to influence my future designs. I have only had two mechs where I have been given 100% positive feedback. The others have had weaknesses, and I have learned lessons from them. If you cannot handle the criticism then do not post your designs. Your design MIGHT work, with a few modifications at a rate of one or two per company as a fire support Mech.

[Blood Rose]

Actually, We have developed tactics to fight your battalion. First consider that for the cost of your Battalion of Lancea I can get around 638 Urbanmechs, or a good mix of several hundred other Mechs. First some (around 100) fast ones are designated for heat trolling-loaded out with Plasma rifles, Flamers and Inferno Missiles. These will charge forth and pour fire onto your Mechs, setting the terrain on fire if possible. This, when combined with weapons fire from the Lancea will cause catstrophic overheating. Infact we predict at least 25% losses/crippling's from ammunition explosions in the first round. Those that are left will either have been forced to shut down from the excessive heat or will be suffering from massive penalties-I.E. immobilized due to heat and with massive negative modifiers to hit. The rest of the force will close and open fire whilst the heat trolling continues. Even if you fire no weapons then we predict at least 2 turns of this sustained bombardment can be upheld whilst your Mechs can do nothing but pray that their ammunition does not detonate. By turn 3 some may have cooled off enough to have a chance of restarting. But by this point they are crippled and unable to fight on. Outmanouvered and outgunned they either surrender or are destroyed. From first contact to endgame? 10-15 turns at them most. If on a large map. On a smaller one? 4-6 turns.

[Karl Streiger]

Blood Rose, on 11 March 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

Actually, We have developed tactics to fight your battalion. First consider that for the cost of your Battalion of Lancea I can get around 638 Urbanmechs, or a good mix of several hundred other Mechs. First some (around 100) fast ones are designated for heat trolling-loaded out with Plasma rifles, Flamers and Inferno Missiles. These will charge forth and pour fire onto your Mechs, setting the terrain on fire if possible. This, when combined with weapons fire from the Lancea will cause catstrophic overheating. Infact we predict at least 25% losses/crippling's from ammunition explosions in the first round. Those that are left will either have been forced to shut down from the excessive heat or will be suffering from massive penalties-I.E. immobilized due to heat and with massive negative modifiers to hit. The rest of the force will close and open fire whilst the heat trolling continues. Even if you fire no weapons then we predict at least 2 turns of this sustained bombardment can be upheld whilst your Mechs can do nothing but pray that their ammunition does not detonate. By turn 3 some may have cooled off enough to have a chance of restarting. But by this point they are crippled and unable to fight on. Outmanouvered and outgunned they either surrender or are destroyed. From first contact to endgame? 10-15 turns at them most. If on a large map. On a smaller one? 4-6 turns.

No that doesn't work - his next argument will be -
so you need about 700 Mechs to defeat my single battailon - your transport and maintenance costs will be much more expensive as to maintain a bataillon of lanceas.

I keep in plain - and cheaper some Naval Gauss Rounds....from high orbit....

[Blood Rose]

Karl Streiger, on 11 March 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

No that doesn't work - his next argument will be -
so you need about 700 Mechs to defeat my single battailon - your transport and maintenance costs will be much more expensive as to maintain a bataillon of lanceas.

I keep in plain - and cheaper some Naval Gauss Rounds....from high orbit....

Not quite 700.... I can only afford around 200-300 Mechs at that limited budget Oh how the OP torments me
Now, about those Naval Gauss rounds... Do you have popcorn and a wide screen high amplification array with some comfy sofas? If yes im game


(BTW, i wasnt intending on maintaning them, just bring all the available Mechs within reach together and hammer the f**k out of him, then let them go their own ways. Also, the salvage from those Lanceas will probably pay for all our costs )

Edited by Blood Rose, 11 March 2014 - 03:48 AM.

[CarnageINC]

Blood Rose, on 11 March 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

Not quite 700.... I can only afford around 200-300 Mechs at that limited budget Oh how the OP torments me
Now, about those Naval Gauss rounds... Do you have popcorn and a wide screen high amplification array with some comfy sofas? If yes im game


(BTW, i wasnt intending on maintaning them, just bring all the available Mechs within reach together and hammer the f**k out of him, then let them go their own ways. Also, the salvage from those Lanceas will probably pay for all our costs )

Your argument is still invalid Blood Rose, PaintedWolf has no capacity for reasoning.

[Blood Rose]

CarnageINC, on 11 March 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Your argument is still invalid Blood Rose, PaintedWolf has no capacity for reasoning.

True, very true. He can only take undying praise on how god like his designs are, and how they are unbeatable and how he is the god of Battletech unit designing, and all naysayers are incompetent fools whom don't know the rules or the game despite having played for years.

[Egomane]

Would you please stop talking bad about the behavior of other users? It's the users choice if he wants to deny or accept the criticism provided to him.

[Kael Posavatz]

Personally I think you are trying to make this mech do too much.

Artillery is support function because it supports other units and requires other units to support it. The 'pure units' you hypothesize lack spotters which renders all but useless artillery's biggest advantage, its range. Ideally the enemy should come no where near your artillery units, usually because they are stopped by front-line troops or at least a security detail. This mech tries to be its own security, which means that when the enemy artillery-hunters come for it, it will be too busy to throw artillery missiles. Also, while its speed is not unreasonable for an assault mech of its tonnage, it lacks the ability to quickly displace itself in event of counter-battery fire.

The secondary (non-artillery) weapon fit looks pretty good though somewhat light for a (non-artillery) mech of this size, and the SRMs seem more of an after-thought. With the way I use artillery mechs in TT, I cannot help but consider the massive secondary battery to be a waste of tonnage, however. Likewise, the way I use most assault mechs the mass devoted to the artillery system and ammunition is at a loss.

I do, however, see possibilities. For example, make this an OmniMech--I assume you used all clan-tech since you did not specify which faction supplied the chassis and engine, but even if you did not the IS has long-had Omni-capability at this point in time.

Lancea-Prime. Strip out the secondary weapons to fit in a second Arrow IV system. That gives you fourteen tons to stock up on ammo and still fit in a decent secondary battery. Also consider a supercharger as base equipment, and/or AMS (perhaps multiple AMS) to protect against counter-fire (This will not do much for tube-artillery, granted, but those I play with often treat standard direct-attack Arrow IV missiles as 'single fire missiles' for determining AMS). If you use Laser AMS they can be used as micro-pulse lasers per Tactical Operations.

Lancea-Alpha. Go the opposite route and strip out the artillery system and ammunition to make this a long-range direct-fire mech that can support your main thrust, or as an escort to keep the enemy away from your artillery mechs. This gives you sixteen tons that can be devoted to additional weapons, ammunition, and heatsinks. Beef up the SRMs, perhaps carry two SRM-6 each with a ton of ammunition, to serve as your close-in weapons. I liked the inclusion of the targeting computer, so retain that to make your long-range weapons more effective.

Lancea-Bravo. Strip out everything. The Prime is your longbow, and the Alpha your spear, this is your close-up in-your-face battle-hammer. Perhaps one or two weapons with longer ranges, but its primary focus is the short-to-medium range brawl. Its job will be pushing home the final assault that breaks the enemy lines and should be treated as such. Dual Ultra AC-20s come immediately to mind.

Lancea Charlie. Battleax to Bravo's battle-hammer. This is the close-in escort for those Lancea-Primes, and again focuses on the medium-range. Consider what units most often go after artillery and plan your weapon load-out to give these a very bad day. Also, remember that the enemy may have air-cover. LB-X-series autocannons give you options of both slug and cluster munitions (assuming the Primes cannot spare ton of ammo to carry some anti-air missiles).

Just an idea, but why have fun designing one weapon load when you can design a dozen?
For that matter, how many torpedoes could one of these carry for underwater combat?

And as someone mentioned cost--the base model that you designed costs LESS than the Naga, the Clan Wolf purpose-built artillery mech.

Edited by Kael 17, 11 March 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

OmniMechs, by BT rules, cannot use Hardened Armor, which seems to be one of the main points of the Lancea.
The specific statement is found on pg. 280 of TacOps: "Hardened Armor is compatible only with standard, non-Omni units".

The next best thing, which is available to OmniMechs, is Clan Snow Raven's Ferro-Lamellor Armor.
The BT rules for FL Armor are found on pgs. 279 & 280 of TacOps.
FL Armor provides a 20% resistance to all weapons, has the same anti-AP effects as Hardened Armor, doesn't have the mobility restrictions of Hardened Armor, has a far lower BV cost (1.2x for FL, vs 2.0x for Hardened Armor; pg. 380 of TacOps), and has a slightly greater EHP/ton (14 pts/ton plus 20% resistance to all weapons = 16.8 EHP/ton for FL Armor, vs 16.0 EHP/ton for both Standard and Hardened Armor)... but it costs over twice as much in terms of c-bills (35,000 c-bills per ton, vs 15,000 c-bills per ton for Hardened Armor; pg. 405 of TacOps), is vulnerable to AX Warheads (see pg. 367 of TacOps), consumes 12 critical spaces, and provides less EHP/ton then normal FF Armor (17.9 EHP/ton for IS FF, 19.2 EHP/ton for Clan FF).

[LoPanShui]

You don't have to transport 'Mechs defending a static position. Here's the scenario.

You send in a Battalion of Lancea battlemechs to assault a Fortress Brian. You yourself indicated that your Lancea 'Mechs are designed to attack exactly these kinds of facilities. We will even assume that the fortress is completely unarmed, and its own defenders are only Battlemechs and other conventional forces like tanks, VTOLs, Dropships, AS Fighters, Infantry, Battle Armor, etc.

You drop in 2.8 billion C-Bills of 'Mechs, a battalion, plus we'll say another 200 mil of dropships, and round out to about 3 billion C-Bills on your side, which we will consider the Operations Budget. You have two choices in drop zone, close and far. Close puts your Lancea in their optimum range instantly, risking your dropships in favor of getting your far more expensive and powerful 'Mech force in the fight ASAP. Far puts your Lancea out of range of the defenders and allows you to march in without risking your dropships to the AS Fighters and dropships of the enemy. We'll examine both of these options.

You drop in close and the first thing your enemy is going to do is swarm your dropships with AS Fighters in an attempt to shoot them down before they land. There is a strong chance they succeed with at least two of your dropships, cutting your landing force significantly. The Lancea land to assault the Fortress Brian and are in perfect range. We'll say you have 84 Lancea left with the dropships having to bug out to a safer landing zone before they're targeted by the AS Fighters or artillery.

You drop several of the AS Fighters who are forced to retreat into upper atmosphere to avoid Lancea fire. You are currently spread out in a firing line several kilometers from the Fortress Brian lobbing Arrow IVs at the defenses, which, thanks to the established Operations Budget significantly outnumbers the Lancea, at a minimum of 1.5 to 1 Mech to Mech Superiority along with 3 to 1 Non 'Mech force superiority. We'll give the enemy forces a 9mil C-Bill average on their 'Mechs. Some will be a lot more expensive, some a lot cheaper, but 9 mil is a good average.

If we want to match BattleMech to BattleMech cost it's slightly over a 3 to 1 advantage on the side of the enemy. But we're not doing that. We're including dropship costs, support troops cost, AS Fighters, the whole thing. So we'll stick with a 1.5 to 1 vs the Lancea.Since you started with 108 Lancea we'll say the enemy has 162 BattleMechs. You lost 24 of them when dropships were shot down, so you're at 84. AS Fighters were not in your Operations Budget of 4 billion C-Bills, but if they were then the enemy's Operations Budget would also increase because we are not assuming your side has a significantly higher budget than your enemy. If the enemy's Operations Budget is increased as well then their ground and air forces would be even larger, so we'll call it as it's been laid out.

It is currently 162 BattleMechs vs 84 Lancea, slightly more than 2 to 1, but the weight difference between the two 'Mech forces is in favor of the Lancea thanks to an average of 45 tons on the enemy side (7,920 tons vs 8400 tons). This leaves 2.54 billion C-Bills in the enemy's Operations Budget for its other forces. It only takes a few dropships, since it is defending a static position, and one dropship can ferry a half dozen different units around the planet without problem. The AS Fighters, four full squadrons, take another hefty chunk out of the budget. We'll round that out to a rough half billion in aerospace/dropships, leaving 2 billion in the Operations Budgetfor the enemy's armor, artillery, power armor, etc.

Now the first thing that starts happening is artillery begins hitting the Lancea, a weakness you yourself admitted, so we'll go ahead and leave them out. No artillery within this enemy force. Instead the Light BattleMechs, Hovertanks and VTOLs swarm out of the Fortress Brian in a pair of flanking maneuvers. They're moving too fast for the Arrow IVs to hit them until they're much closer, thanks to flight time, so the Lancea have to wait until they're in ER PPC range to really start picking them off. Now, with a very low cost for these units, there are going to be a lot of them coming, and the ER PPCs and lasers aren't going to be killing with every shot, but we'll give the benefit of the doubt and say every 2 Lancea take out 1.5 fast mover before it can engage. We'll say there were a good 60 Light BattleMechs and 120 Hovertanks and VTOLs combined. At 84 Lancea they took out 63 of these, and we'll split them evenly. 29 Light BattleMechs and 89 combined Hover/VTOL.

These forces, in turn, we’ll lowball here and assume that it takes 10 of each of these remaining light forces focusing fire at once to drop a single Lancea. That’s roughly 12 more Lancea gone. You’re currently at 72 Lancea left.

At this point you are now surrounded, the fast movers having flanked to either side, so you have to begin splitting fire. We’ll give you the advantage here and say they don’t get behind you. Many of the fast moving vehicles have dropped off troops they were transporting, however, leaving twenty infantry platoons in close range, and those platoons are armed with SRM launchers, probably infernos.

You’re forced to divert ¼ of your force, 18 Lancea, to fighting the flanks, disposing of the fast movers which are still harrying you and the infantry with its inferno rounds. You can’t divert your whole force because now the Medium and Heavy BatleMechs of the enemy force are moving in towards the center. ¾ of your force (54 Lancea) engage this coming force with Arrow IVs and long range weaponry. The faster moving Mediums and some Heavies are still too fast for you to engage with your artillery shots until they get in close, which means some of your Lancea have to be dedicated to focusing them down with conventional weaponry. Meanwhile, on your flanks, we continue the same level of attrition as before. 1.5 Lancea to kill each enemy, thanks to missed shots, armor, increased heat from heat causing weaponry, etc, with 10 enemies to kill each Lancea. 27 fast movers are down, and ⅓ of the infantry platoons as well. In turn you lose 10 Lancea on the flanks at the 10 enemies to kill 1 Lancea ratio. Your flanks are down to 8 Lancea.

In the main push we’ll consider the ratios to be different. Being able to use your Arrow IVs means a whole lot, and even including the fast movers, the massed artillery barrages mean you’re taking out enemies on a 1 to 1 basis before they even get a shot at you. Now this was half of the enemy force (81 Mechs) and you took out 54 of them before they could engage, a pretty generous number considering a large portion of your force had to focus fire down the faster Mechs.. This leaves 27 Mediums and Heavies with which to engage your superior force of 54 Lancea. We’ll say it takes 4 to 1 here to focus fire down Lancea instead of 10 to 1 thanks to the superior firepower of Medium and Heavy Mechs vs fast moving lightly armed units. With 27 of the enemy left we’ll round it up and call it 7 dead Lancea. You’re now at 47 Lancea in the main engagement and 8 on the flanks for a total of 55 Lancea, about half of your landing force.

In the third phase of the battle the enemy assaults are coming in. There are 21 of these. The flanks are in a slow decline, so you move an extra lance to back them up in order to secure them (12 on the flanks). This leaves 43 Lancea to deal with 27 Mechs of the second wave and 21 Mechs of the third wave. Knowing the 4 to 1 kill ratio against the heavies and mediums, you move ¼ of your force (11 Lancea) to specifically handle them and free up the remaining ¾ (32 Lancea) of your force to barrage the oncoming assaults.

By now you’re running a bit hot from the constant firing and have activated your TSM, which is dangerous with the Inferno infantry in place capable of driving the Lancea’s heat into the ranges where its Arrow ammunition could explode or force the Lancea to shut down. Focus firing down the Heavies and Mediums, who are now too close to fire artillery at, is going to be generating a lot of heat, more of which can be added thanks to that infantry or Mech Plasma Rifles, so you’ve got to be careful.

The flanks continue their assault at the same ratios. 1.5 dead fast movers to each Lancea, 10 to 1 in the reverse, and 7 dead infantry platoons. You could focus on the inferno infantry, but that would allow the fast movers to fire without fear of being gunned down. That’s 18 more Fast Movers down, 9 more downed Lancea and only 6 Infantry Platoons remain. That’s 73 Fast Movers left against 3 Lancea on the flanks.

In the Medium and Heavy engagement the Lancea’s kill ratio goes down from 1 to 1 to 2 to 1 thanks to the enemy now being too close to use artillery on. The enemy still needs a 4 to 1 to drop the Lancea in the same amount of time, which is an extremely generous ratio. The end result of this is 6 dead enemies and 7 dead Lancea, leaving 21 of the Second Wave and 4 of the Lancea unit engaging them.

Against the assaults, who have heavier armor, the artillery barrage isn’t quite as effective, and they’ve managed to get pretty close thanks to having started out at the same time as everything else. The artillery barrage requires 2 Lancea to take out the enemy’s assaults before they can get close enough to return fire, or rather each Lancea can take out .5 Assaults before they get in range. This is still staggering, as the Lancea take out 16 of the 21 Assault Mechs of the enemy’s Second wave, leaving only 5 Assaults. They return fire, and we’ll give them a 1 to 1 on killing Lancea, so they, in turn, take out 5 Lancea.
At this point everyone is stuck in, too close for Arrow IVs to be effective, and the Lancea are surrounded on three sides. The force disposition looks like this:

Flanks: 3 Lancea - 73 Fast Movers and 6 Infantry Platoons.
Front Line: 4 Lancea - 21 Medium and Heavy BattleMechs.
Second Line: 32 Lancea - 6 Assault Mechs

At this point the second lines have to commit. The 6 Assault Mechs are joining the Front Line to reinforce the 21 Second Wave Mechs. You have three options. You can pull your second line back in order to fire more Arrow IVs, you can reinforce the flanks, or you can reinforce the front line. If you pull back then the Front Line and Flanks will both fail, and your second line will get swarmed by fast movers. If you reinforce the Flanks then your Front Line will fail and you’ll have your forces split in two. If you reinforce the Front Line the Flanks will fail and you’ll end up surrounded. The only viable option is to commit ⅓ of your force to each action, since committing to only two or to none of these actions will result in a war of attrition that the Lancea can not win at this range.

You move 12 Lancea to the Flanks, 11 to the front lines and move 11 of them backwards to egt range for their Arrow IVs. 23 Fast Movers die to 7 Lancea on the flanks. On the front line we have a combined force of 27 Heavy, Medium and Assault ‘Mechs to 15 Lancea. With the addition of the Assault Mechs’ firepower it now takes only 3 enemy units to drop a single Lancea instead of 4 to 1. The Lancea, meanwhile, thanks to the Assaults, need a 2.5 to 1 advantage. The massive firepower of dedicated combat Assault Mechs, even as few as six of them, can make a very important difference. 9 Lancea fall while 6 enemies do.

Flanks: 8 Lancea to 50 Fast Movers
Front Line: 6 Lancea - 21 BattleMechs
Second Line: 11 Fresh Lancea.

It is now 25 Lancea to 71 Enemy Forces. The Lancea dropships can not move in thanks to the threat of AS Fighters. Even at their best Kill Ratio of 1.5 Kills per Lancea, they cannot overcome this massive disadvantage before they’re wiped out. This was without artillery, without warships, without enemy dropships involved in the fight and on open ground starting in the Lancea’s best engagement range.

If the Lancea had landed further away and marched in the results would have been even more catastrophic as the enemy could have chosen his own terrain and, with his speed advantage, could have started the battle surrounding the Lancea.

The Lancea is a good unit, that isn’t in doubt, it has a kill ratio in this combat of 71:59 or 1.3:1 just on BattleMechs. This doesn’t count the staggering number of losses just on armor and VTOLs. But your fundamental logic has failed. Despite giving the Lancea numerous advantages in the kill ratios and not including heat in any of these numbers, it has failed in its fundamental task of taking the Fortress Brian, a 4 Billion C-Bill Operation, specifically because of its inability to deal with cheap, fast moving forces in a truly effective manner. For its C-Bill cost the enemy was able to manufacture and field over four times its number of forces in a scenario that the Lancea was specifically designed to excel in. While it is a ‘Mech that is better than average at a large number of jobs, it can not succeed without forces to support it which the exorbitant C-Bill cost of fielding large numbers of them prevents.

TL;DR
The Lancea engages in a battle of attrition that it loses due to sheer numbers.

Edited by LoPanShui, 11 March 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

LoPanShui, on 11 March 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

(snipped for brevity)
TL;DR
The Lancea engages in a battle of attrition that it loses due to sheer numbers.

"You send in a Battalion of Lancea battlemechs to assault a Fortress Brian..."
"We'll say you have 84 Lancea left with the dropships having to bug out to a safer landing zone before they're targeted by the AS Fighters or artillery..."
"Since you started with 108 Lancea we'll say the enemy has 162 BattleMechs..."

A standard Inner Sphere battalion consists of only 36 BattleMechs (that is, three companies of 12 individual BattleMechs apiece), while the special "square battalion" consists of only 48 BattleMechs (that is, four companies of 12 individual BattleMechs apiece).

The force LoPanShui is describing is at the lower end for a regiment (where 1 regiment = 3 to 5 battalions = 108 to 180 individual BattleMechs).

LoPanShui: did you mean to let PaintedWolf start with an actual battalion (36-48 'Mechs), or with a regiment (108 'Mechs)?
In the scenario LoPanShui has described, a smallish regiment (three times the number of Lancea originally proposed by PaintedWolf in the opening post) failed to take the objective; an actual battalion would likely fare no better, IMO (though, seeing a similar analysis with a battalion-sized force of Lancea versus the Castle Brian's defenses would be interesting).

[Dakkaface]

Gotta say PW - not really getting your thrust here. BV is a measure of a battlemech's worth for the purposes of having an even battle between two players and C-bills is an in-universe cost per mech that reflects how many of a given mech a force is likely to field. You can't dismiss either of these things. If you dismiss BV, then clearly we are talking about in-universe decisions and resources, which means your C-bill cost matters. If you dismiss C-bills, then clearly we're having it out on the tabletop, which means BV matters.

Yes, slots available on a Jumpship/Dropship is a limiting factor, but you're talking about a mech which is purportedly designed to go after fortified positions - the defending forces are there already, and have spent a shedload of C-bills to reinforce and fortify a position - said slots are meaningless to them.

It's a Super Star Destroyer. Big, imposing, expensive, and capable of being taken down by multiple units with an aggregate cheaper cost. Building more of them means sinking lots of resources in your big scary units and having a tough time when you end up vastly outnumbered.

Edited by Dakkaface, 11 March 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[LoPanShui]

Strum Wealh, on 11 March 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

"You send in a Battalion of Lancea battlemechs to assault a Fortress Brian..."
"We'll say you have 84 Lancea left with the dropships having to bug out to a safer landing zone before they're targeted by the AS Fighters or artillery..."
"Since you started with 108 Lancea we'll say the enemy has 162 BattleMechs..."

A standard Inner Sphere battalion consists of only 36 BattleMechs (that is, three companies of 12 individual BattleMechs apiece), while the special "square battalion" consists of only 48 BattleMechs (that is, four companies of 12 individual BattleMechs apiece).

The force LoPanShui is describing is at the lower end for a regiment (where 1 regiment = 3 to 5 battalions = 108 to 180 individual BattleMechs).

LoPanShui: did you mean to let PaintedWolf start with an actual battalion (36-48 'Mechs), or with a regiment (108 'Mechs)?
In the scenario LoPanShui has described, a smallish regiment (three times the number of Lancea originally proposed by PaintedWolf in the opening post) failed to take the objective; an actual battalion would likely fare no better, IMO (though, seeing a similar analysis with a battalion-sized force of Lancea versus the Castle Brian's defenses would be interesting).

Point. Somehow I was going 3 Lances in a Company, 3 Companies in a Battalion, 3 Battalions in a Battalion...

Either way, the numbers hold up.

[Blood Rose]

LoPanShui, on 11 March 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Point. Somehow I was going 3 Lances in a Company, 3 Companies in a Battalion, 3 Battalions in a Battalion...

Either way, the numbers hold up.

It was a very well written and thought out analysis. Actually we thought that you where being extremely generous to his Lancea. Factoring in heat levels his Mechs should have only been 50% as effective as they where. Still, a very sound analysis.