208 replies to this topic

[Goosfraba]

Dennis de Koning, on 05 March 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

You hit the nail right on the head InRev; thanks for doing your homework.

If thats the case I stand corrected.

[xengk]

Bront, on 06 March 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Can you imagine all the "Crap build" jokes we'd get though? Not worth it.

REVENGE!

Steelgrave, on 06 March 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

For those of you unable to see the grin. Here, look harder.



For some reason it's noming on a laser mount, and that does obfuscate it a bit. Also, it seems to have a mouth full of metal like Doctor Doom, but what the hell else did you expect? A giant, gaping hole directly under the cockpit?

I like how the LM's head is a composite of the 1E and 11X, but more snake-like and with a piranha's overbite.

[Lord Perversor]

Also worth to notice Alex said only La Malinche carry the laser on the mouth all other variants carry it over the head like Hunchbacks.

[xengk]

Xtrekker, on 06 March 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

I wish it would work like the Heavy Metal in that upon a kill, it would scream a blood curdling scream. Between kills it should occasionally cry and moan. Kind of like the witch from L4D2. Might actually buy that...

http://www.audiospar...ound_iid.205969
http://www.soundsnap.com/spiritscream

I think the dev should change the banshee's engine noise to sound like moaning or groaning instead.
It is an old mech from 2455, it should sound old and struggling as it move.

Also engine sound can be heard within a radius and have stereo effect, ie: the sound will be softer or louder depending on the distance.
Imagine the damage dealt to your victim's psyche as the sound of moaning looms over him as you move closer.

Side effect might include making the user uncomfortable if piloted for too long.

Lord Perversor, on 06 March 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

Also worth to notice Alex said only La Malinche carry the laser on the mouth all other variants carry it over the head like Hunchbacks.

Yes, it makes the LM looks like it is screaming out a laser beam.

[cSand]

LAAAAAAAA MALLIIIIINCHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Koniving]

Stevie Ray Vaughan, on 04 March 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

Wow, so it's another Pretty Baby:, "Let's make the worst variant a Hero for lulz!"

That's exactly what I thought. An awkward loadout which would work great in tabletop or in Mechwarrior 3... but in MWO where alpha strikes are everything and diverse builds are punished... the idea doesn't work out here.

[Pezzer]

Koniving, on 06 March 2014 - 09:39 PM, said:

That's exactly what I thought. An awkward loadout which would work great in tabletop or in Mechwarrior 3... but in MWO where alpha strikes are everything and diverse builds are punished... the idea doesn't work out here.

Alpha strikes are everything and diverse builds are punished?

Makes sense, what with the gameplay mechanic that causes more heat when firing too many of the same weapon.

"Ghost heat was an idea that we came up to counter the conservative build problem that we've seen in the game."

Comparing this variant to the rest, I gotta say that it looks the most delicious. You only get a couple of each hardpoint type, making it easier to build a CQC anti-Ghost Heat/super alpha build. Well, big thing going for it is the balanced hardpoints. Not too many Missile hardpoints, which would cause you to pick between a few extreme-range weapons (extreme short/long), not too many energy hardpoints to cause overheating, and not too many ballistic hardpoints resulting in ammo overload. I like it myself. Too bad that the Hero is overpriced

Edited by Pezzer, 06 March 2014 - 10:10 PM.

[Steelgrave]

xengk, on 06 March 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

REVENGE!





I like how the LM's head is a composite of the 1E and 11X, but more snake-like and with a piranha's overbite.

Underbite was the term you were looking for.

Edited by Steelgrave, 06 March 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[Koniving]

Pezzer, on 06 March 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Alpha strikes are everything and diverse builds are punished?

Makes sense, what with the gameplay mechanic that causes more heat when firing too many of the same weapon.

"Ghost heat was an idea that we came up to counter the conservative build problem that we've seen in the game."

Comparing this variant to the rest, I gotta say that it looks the most delicious. You only get a couple of each hardpoint type, making it easier to build a CQC anti-Ghost Heat/super alpha build. Well, big thing going for it is the balanced hardpoints. Not too many Missile hardpoints, which would cause you to pick between a few extreme-range weapons (extreme short/long), not too many energy hardpoints to cause overheating, and not too many ballistic hardpoints resulting in ammo overload. I like it myself. Too bad that the Hero is overpriced

I'm speaking of the core heat system combined with the pinpoint, and too many weapon systems with upfront-instant damage.

The core heat system in MW3 was 30 heat. In MW2 expansions, 40 heat "for the arcade feel." In Mechwarrior, Battletech (1992, 1993 32 player simulators), and the original Mechwarrior 2 it was 30 heat.

In MWO the minimum is 40 heat for standard heatsinks, 50 heat for DHS. Add to this that MWO is the first and only mechwarrior or battletech game to have a rising threshold (limit to shutdown) in the now 20 year history of the franchise. This means that unlike past games where heatsinks only meant faster cooling and unlike tabletop where weapons are fired one at a time in sequence and hitting different spots across 10 seconds... that MWO allows you to not only 'alpha strike' every single shot but encourages it.

After all if you chain fire you're simply alienating yourself from the benefit of 100% pinpoint accuracy. With slower cooldown but incredibly high thresholds with no punishment for reaching high heat, you are essentially encouraged to alpha strike as much as possible. The penalties of Hheat Scale are exploitable, and anyone intelligent enough to know better simply 'ignores' it by taking the slap on the wrist in exchange for that kill and the one after.

Currently Inner Sphere mechs max out at 88.56 threshold on a heat neutral map and 5.04/sec cooling while still carrying 1 ER PPC (Victor, 27 DHS). The franchise killing Mechwarrior 4 had a threshold of 60. Get on Frozen City and that's now a threshold of 110.70. That's 11 regular PPCs fired at once (without ghost heat) and still failing to shutdown.

Clan mechs will easily reach 102 threshold and a cooling rate of 6.32/sec (35 DHS, 10 with the engine, 24 added in, and 1 thrown into the engine's compartment) with unlocks on a heat neutral map and still carry an ER PPC. On frozen city that's 127.5 threshold and a cooling rate of 7.91/sec. That's enough to fire 8 Clan ER PPCs (without ghost heat) dealing 120 damage in a single alpha strike which is virtually a one shot kill on your average Atlas...while still going full speed without shutting down.

Meanwhile, in Mechwarrior 3... 2 ER PPCs would instantly shut you down without any need for ghost heat, because 30 heat = shutdown. That's 3 PPCs. That's 4 large lasers. That's three back to back firings of twin AC/20s even with a good cooldown rate, which btw in MW3 the AC/20s fire in 3 round bursts so it's not "bam 40 damage" it's "bam (13.33 total), bam (26.67 total), bam (40 damage total)!"

Mechwarrior 2, you'd get away with more PPCs with 40 threshold (3 in total as only ER PPCs were allowed in what I played) but in that game they travel very slowly and it's also one where UAC/20 fired 20 bullets.

Past games could easily encourage diverse loadouts to manage heat problems. After all the best weapons were lasers. Autocannons spread out damage -- even if they could knock down mechs. PPCs were slow moving. But lasers did all the upfront damage at the expense of intense heat. 9 heat for a large laser that did 8 damage. All weapons also fired infrequently. If they had MWO's firing rates it'd have been quite reasonably balanced in MW3.

In MWO that large laser does 9 damage for 7 heat... but spreads it in 10 'ticks' over 1 second instead of instantly. Meanwhile the deadliest weapons have ZERO heat punishment and a near infinite supply of ammunition with a nearly guaranteed 140 to 150 damage per ton of ammo as opposed to 120 or significantly less damage per ton of ammo in MW3.

So yeah, the long and short of it... we are in a system that practically requires alpha strikes and punishes diversity.

Edit: Link to check thresholds in MWO.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/ <--for your entertainment.

Edited by Koniving, 06 March 2014 - 10:52 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

I'm disappointed by the look of the 'Mech, especially the missing skull head.

But the people who can't stop living in the past amuse me.

[Frost Lord]

xengk, on 06 March 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

I think the dev should change the banshee's engine noise to sound like moaning or groaning instead.
It is an old mech from 2455, it should sound old and struggling as it move.

Also engine sound can be heard within a radius and have stereo effect, ie: the sound will be softer or louder depending on the distance.
Imagine the damage dealt to your victim's psyche as the sound of moaning looms over him as you move closer.

Side effect might include making the user uncomfortable if piloted for too long.



Yes, it makes the LM looks like it is screaming out a laser beam.

im a firing my lazar!!!!!!

[Cervantes88]

They need to make a Hero mech that plays that sound really loud on a kill :

[Liquid Leopard]

Lord Perversor, on 06 March 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

Well La Malinche it's linked in some part to the Aztec myth of La Llorona who is a kind of south American version of the Banshee...

^ No. Not even close. That story is too awful not to correct it.

TL/DR: Whoever believes La Malinche is related to La Llorona is at odds with every Latino I know, and a lot that I don't.

Among your errors:
La Llorona is a Spanish myth, not Aztec. The Aztecs lived in Mexico, not South America. La Malintzin was not an Aztec, but from one of the many tribes who helped the Spanish destroy the Aztecs (not realizing they'd be next). La Llorona isn't a banshee, doesn't make the same sound, and doesn't make sounds for the same reason.

From what I can read of InRev's Wikipedia link in Spanish, (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llorona) it has messages at the top urging the poster to correct their errors and use creditable sources. Furthermore, the article doesn't claim "Malinche = Llorona" is THE story of La Llorona. It goes on to describe several different versions, including the one I learned in New Mexico:
La Llorona is the ghost of a woman who went mad and drowned her children.
Most of the stories are similar, and the claimed sightings are when someone sees her apparition searching near a river, looking for her children, or wandering city streets looking for other children to take with her.

But, my source was this one book on NM folk tales,
http://www.amazon.co...A0FJYXDM9F5AX6Z

So, I e-mailed some friends over there to get their input.

The 1st answer was from a friend who's lived there all his life:
"for years I feared la llorona. her story scared me. we would be camping, or at my grandmas house and we would hear something and right away my cousins said it was her. I was scared that she was coming after me. the way you told the story is exactly as I know it. she wanders the night looking for her children of which she drowned,"

My friend the archaeologist forwarded these answers from anthropologists (Mostly at the University of New Mexico):
"I note that "La Malinche" is a corruption of her name Malintzin"

"Obviously there are parallels, BUT:
To 'us' La Llorona is not a banshee (by classic definition), as she is lamenting her untrue love and killing her own children"

"Both women are associated with the area now known as Mexico City. Malintzin was a historical figure and La Llorona was a mythical one. Malintzin's children survived to have children of their own. The conflation of the two appears to be fairly recent, although the weeping woman motif may be ancient. A good source on the real woman is Malintzin's Choices, by Camilla Townsend, 2006, UNM Press."

"I'm sitting here in Mexico with a National Institute of Anthropology anthropologist who tells me that he has never heard of this conflation of La Malinche and La Llorona. La llorona has a Spanish origin and the story arrived with colonists."

"La Llorona is a mythical character rooted in Greek-Roman-Spanish tradition.
La Malinche was a purely New World real person who has been credited with some mythical qualities over time."

"la Malinche represents all mothers of the mixed euro-mexica that make up the vast majority of the population of Mexico, and she is associated with La Madre de Dios-La Soledad-the Virgin Mary, the original saintly Mother. Not a crying phantasm."

"La Llorona does not wail (like a banshee) She whimpers and cries, moans spookily in anguish, and soothingly coaxes and bewitches wayward children to follow her."

"(as my comments and the comments from the Museo Nacional anthropologist & others illustrate, La Llorona is a Spanish [actually resembling an earlier Greek legend] derived creature in cautionary tales, intended to make children behave and young women be careful who with and how they consort)"

...And there's more. Anthropologist contacted other anthropoligists, in other states and countries, and thoroughly picked apart this story. ...And, PGI didn't even tell us the story themselves, but waited for a fan to dig it up, post it, and translate it to English for them.

PGI could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by naming the hero mech "El Guapo".

Edited by Liquid Leopard, 07 March 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[Lord Perversor]

Liquid Leopard, on 07 March 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

^ No. Not even close. That story is too awful not to correct it.

And quite lengthy and in some parts interesting post.

let's keep things clear i'm Spanish. So i know quite well what kind of myths and legends are ours and wich one are Latinoamerican.

La Malinche per se it's a derivation of Malintzin that's right, who was a slave Aztec girl who helped and later loved and married Cortes on his conquests. (as a funny note one of her grandchildrens it's an ancestor of mine)

Here in Spain let me point it there *SPAIN* the European country never was a myth like the La Llorona the closest one it's the one know as Santa compaña.

La Llorona myth it's originated from Pre Spanish cultures and myths in Southamerica it's the spanish conquerors who helps to merge all the stories and give it a kind of *physical* origin on the woman know as La Malinche (in fact it's part of a black Legend added to Cortes and Her), and finally the whole myth become a part of the spanish culture in Mexico and South America (still the myth never fully crossed to Europe )


Now we can argue for years about the true and factual origin of the myth, but being honest, PGI aren't some kind of old Mythos divers so probably they just typed Banshee on wikipedia checked similar entries and found La Llorona, and the links to La Malinche there and tought the 2nd sounded more badass for a Banshee related Heromech and that's the whole history.

[Pezzer]

Koniving, on 06 March 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

I'm speaking of the core heat system combined with the pinpoint, and too many weapon systems with upfront-instant damage.

The core heat system in MW3 was 30 heat. In MW2 expansions, 40 heat "for the arcade feel." In Mechwarrior, Battletech (1992, 1993 32 player simulators), and the original Mechwarrior 2 it was 30 heat.

In MWO the minimum is 40 heat for standard heatsinks, 50 heat for DHS. Add to this that MWO is the first and only mechwarrior or battletech game to have a rising threshold (limit to shutdown) in the now 20 year history of the franchise. This means that unlike past games where heatsinks only meant faster cooling and unlike tabletop where weapons are fired one at a time in sequence and hitting different spots across 10 seconds... that MWO allows you to not only 'alpha strike' every single shot but encourages it.

After all if you chain fire you're simply alienating yourself from the benefit of 100% pinpoint accuracy. With slower cooldown but incredibly high thresholds with no punishment for reaching high heat, you are essentially encouraged to alpha strike as much as possible. The penalties of Hheat Scale are exploitable, and anyone intelligent enough to know better simply 'ignores' it by taking the slap on the wrist in exchange for that kill and the one after.

Currently Inner Sphere mechs max out at 88.56 threshold on a heat neutral map and 5.04/sec cooling while still carrying 1 ER PPC (Victor, 27 DHS). The franchise killing Mechwarrior 4 had a threshold of 60. Get on Frozen City and that's now a threshold of 110.70. That's 11 regular PPCs fired at once (without ghost heat) and still failing to shutdown.

Clan mechs will easily reach 102 threshold and a cooling rate of 6.32/sec (35 DHS, 10 with the engine, 24 added in, and 1 thrown into the engine's compartment) with unlocks on a heat neutral map and still carry an ER PPC. On frozen city that's 127.5 threshold and a cooling rate of 7.91/sec. That's enough to fire 8 Clan ER PPCs (without ghost heat) dealing 120 damage in a single alpha strike which is virtually a one shot kill on your average Atlas...while still going full speed without shutting down.

Meanwhile, in Mechwarrior 3... 2 ER PPCs would instantly shut you down without any need for ghost heat, because 30 heat = shutdown. That's 3 PPCs. That's 4 large lasers. That's three back to back firings of twin AC/20s even with a good cooldown rate, which btw in MW3 the AC/20s fire in 3 round bursts so it's not "bam 40 damage" it's "bam (13.33 total), bam (26.67 total), bam (40 damage total)!"

Mechwarrior 2, you'd get away with more PPCs with 40 threshold (3 in total as only ER PPCs were allowed in what I played) but in that game they travel very slowly and it's also one where UAC/20 fired 20 bullets.

Past games could easily encourage diverse loadouts to manage heat problems. After all the best weapons were lasers. Autocannons spread out damage -- even if they could knock down mechs. PPCs were slow moving. But lasers did all the upfront damage at the expense of intense heat. 9 heat for a large laser that did 8 damage. All weapons also fired infrequently. If they had MWO's firing rates it'd have been quite reasonably balanced in MW3.

In MWO that large laser does 9 damage for 7 heat... but spreads it in 10 'ticks' over 1 second instead of instantly. Meanwhile the deadliest weapons have ZERO heat punishment and a near infinite supply of ammunition with a nearly guaranteed 140 to 150 damage per ton of ammo as opposed to 120 or significantly less damage per ton of ammo in MW3.

So yeah, the long and short of it... we are in a system that practically requires alpha strikes and punishes diversity.

Edit: Link to check thresholds in MWO.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/ <--for your entertainment.

It can be argued that MWO's heat system encourages more alphas. It can also be argued that it simply encourages more weapons fire in general.

If I remember correctly, everyone in Closed Beta (So this was before Endo and DHS, the 2 true evils of MWO. Not Clans, not Ghost Heat, Endo and DHS.) complained about the heat situation at the time. The game was fun, but everyone agreed that the lower heat threshold made it more advantageous to snipe the entire match (long range sniping=when I get to my heat threshold, I can dive into cover instead of shutting down at CQB and dying). So what they did was make the threshold higher.

Unfortunately, I think this change was in effect mere months before DHS/Open Beta. So we had a few months of paradise before that train wreck was added.

What i'm trying to get to in a roundabout way (I haven't had my coffee yet. Coffee=my writing fuel) is that I do agree with you. The larger threshold makes snipers wanna bring more alpha dakka and jumpsnipe with Gauss and PPCs. But the larger threshold also makes CQB possible, simply because a larger threshold equals lower chances of shutting down at a bad time.

I can already hear you telling me that those people are inexperienced pilots and would eventually get with the program. Well, they would, but we would then be back to square one (long range fighting with only small amounts of forced CQB at certain choke points).

This is what I see that needs to happen: lower heat threshold, increase damage dispersion at longer ranges. Firing a PPC from 1000 meters away? You're now doing 1/2 damage. 900 Meter LL blast? Only 4 damage etc. This would make Alphas less of an issue and make the battles closer in range, thereby promoting CQB. People could still snipe with ERLLs and PPCs, they will just be doing less damage (but of course be totally safe from short-range weaponry). More conservative builds will be happy, and CQC builds will be the damage Meta. Everyone's happy except for the snipers maybe, but if you're 1440 meters from the enemy you shouldn't complain much when that range makes you invincible from all but the other snipers.
And one more plus, we could take Ghost Heat out!

EDIT: And I guess the whole point of what you were saying is that chainfiring is useless? If so, then yeah. It's always been a pretty useless option anyways. If you're arguing that this "Alpha Meta" is just people chaining together multiple of the same weapon type on a single mouse click (2LLs, 4MLs etc), then I don't follow you. That's MechWarrior. MW2 and beyond has always been like this, I remember watching someone playing the MW3 Campaign in a Mad Dog(Vulture) and he did the same exact thing that I do with my Mech. Pulses on 1 button, LRMs on the other, etc
^If this isn't at all what you're talking about, then forget ever reading it.

But I digress, this is all incredibly off-topic. Given the current Meta and my personal tastes, I really like La Malinche. I'd rather drive it over the 2 mostly-energy variants and the 1 4-ballistics-in-the-same-torso-hahaha-useless-95-ton-Assault-Ballistic-boat variant.

Edited by Pezzer, 07 March 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Xtrekker]

All historical inaccuracies aside, couldn't one assume that the legend would be easily be corrupted over the next thousand years of peripheral space exploration, as translated and adopted by unwashed, uneducated mercs? I'm sure "El Guapo" (I'm sure complete with sombrero and a bottle of tequila if Battletech lore holds true to form) would not have teams of historians searching to validate the accuracy of ancient Mexican mythos.

If anyone wonders why El Guapo, it looks like the other options were General Jeren Reinesblatt, which would include an axe, or Captain Greg Oliphant's "Court Jester", complete with fool's cap, bells, and big grin. We have no melee, we already have a Jester, so...¡arriba!

[ackstorm]

Pezzer, on 06 March 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Alpha strikes are everything and diverse builds are punished?

Makes sense, what with the gameplay mechanic that causes more heat when firing too many of the same weapon.

"Ghost heat was an idea that we came up to counter the conservative build problem that we've seen in the game."

Comparing this variant to the rest, I gotta say that it looks the most delicious. You only get a couple of each hardpoint type, making it easier to build a CQC anti-Ghost Heat/super alpha build. Well, big thing going for it is the balanced hardpoints. Not too many Missile hardpoints, which would cause you to pick between a few extreme-range weapons (extreme short/long), not too many energy hardpoints to cause overheating, and not too many ballistic hardpoints resulting in ammo overload. I like it myself. Too bad that the Hero is overpriced

I have to agree with Pezzer, this is the best variant. Only one other variant appears to have a (left) arm mount, the rest are all torso mounted weapons. That might be good for meta builds but it sure makes killing them easier for heavies and lights alike. I can tell you now that aiming up and down from the torso in this hero is limited, and if that is true of the standard models then the Banshee is going to suffer on maps like Terra Therma pretty bad.

[ackstorm]

Some notes on the hero:

1. Up and down torso angle seems very limited. I can't aim down on Terra Therma's steep hills so I have to use my arms
2. Torso and arm hardpoints have very low placement on the torso. You will find it difficult to aim over obstacles like hills without exposing yourself.

(note: If you mount something other than a PPC in the left-torso laser hardpoint, it mounts up near the head. You could get away with a LPL maybe to shoot over things?)

For both of the above reasons I recommend having a LRM20 up there in your shoulder. It's the only weapon that wont be affected by these limitations.
3. Except for the BNC-3S which has a single left-arm laser point, only the BNC-ML has arm mounted laser hardpoints. That means this is the only model that will excel at fast moving objects like scouts.

4. I seem to take a lot of center-torso damage. 75% of the time I get cored in the middle. I've played it both with the 380XL and with STD engines and the rate of fatality with XL is not as bad as you might think. That being said, even a 380XL is pretty slow.

Also I tried the flamer in the head. Its neat looking for others to see but it completely blinds you when you use it.

Edited by ackstorm, 07 March 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Xtrekker]

ackstorm, on 07 March 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Also I tried the flamer in the head. Its neat looking for others to see but it completely blinds you when you use it.

lol, why did this make me laugh?

[Fang01]

Liquid Leopard, on 07 March 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

^ No. Not even close. That story is too awful not to correct it.

TL/DR: Whoever believes La Malinche is related to La Llorona is at odds with every Latino I know, and a lot that I don't.

Among your errors:
La Llorona is a Spanish myth, not Aztec. The Aztecs lived in Mexico, not South America. La Malintzin was not an Aztec, but from one of the many tribes who helped the Spanish destroy the Aztecs (not realizing they'd be next). La Llorona isn't a banshee, doesn't make the same sound, and doesn't make sounds for the same reason.

From what I can read of InRev's Wikipedia link in Spanish, (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llorona) it has messages at the top urging the poster to correct their errors and use creditable sources. Furthermore, the article doesn't claim "Malinche = Llorona" is THE story of La Llorona. It goes on to describe several different versions, including the one I learned in New Mexico:
La Llorona is the ghost of a woman who went mad and drowned her children.
Most of the stories are similar, and the claimed sightings are when someone sees her apparition searching near a river, looking for her children, or wandering city streets looking for other children to take with her.

But, my source was this one book on NM folk tales,
http://www.amazon.co...A0FJYXDM9F5AX6Z

So, I e-mailed some friends over there to get their input.

The 1st answer was from a friend who's lived there all his life:
"for years I feared la llorona. her story scared me. we would be camping, or at my grandmas house and we would hear something and right away my cousins said it was her. I was scared that she was coming after me. the way you told the story is exactly as I know it. she wanders the night looking for her children of which she drowned,"

My friend the archaeologist forwarded these answers from anthropologists (Mostly at the University of New Mexico):
"I note that "La Malinche" is a corruption of her name Malintzin"

"Obviously there are parallels, BUT:
To 'us' La Llorona is not a banshee (by classic definition), as she is lamenting her untrue love and killing her own children"

"Both women are associated with the area now known as Mexico City. Malintzin was a historical figure and La Llorona was a mythical one. Malintzin's children survived to have children of their own. The conflation of the two appears to be fairly recent, although the weeping woman motif may be ancient. A good source on the real woman is Malintzin's Choices, by Camilla Townsend, 2006, UNM Press."

"I'm sitting here in Mexico with a National Institute of Anthropology anthropologist who tells me that he has never heard of this conflation of La Malinche and La Llorona. La llorona has a Spanish origin and the story arrived with colonists."

"La Llorona is a mythical character rooted in Greek-Roman-Spanish tradition.
La Malinche was a purely New World real person who has been credited with some mythical qualities over time."

"la Malinche represents all mothers of the mixed euro-mexica that make up the vast majority of the population of Mexico, and she is associated with La Madre de Dios-La Soledad-the Virgin Mary, the original saintly Mother. Not a crying phantasm."

"La Llorona does not wail (like a banshee) She whimpers and cries, moans spookily in anguish, and soothingly coaxes and bewitches wayward children to follow her."

"(as my comments and the comments from the Museo Nacional anthropologist & others illustrate, La Llorona is a Spanish [actually resembling an earlier Greek legend] derived creature in cautionary tales, intended to make children behave and young women be careful who with and how they consort)"

...And there's more. Anthropologist contacted other anthropoligists, in other states and countries, and thoroughly picked apart this story. ...And, PGI didn't even tell us the story themselves, but waited for a fan to dig it up, post it, and translate it to English for them.

PGI could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by naming the hero mech "El Guapo".

now lets word of mouth that story from generation to generation over the next 1000+ years and you dont think they're gonna get interconnected?