216 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

Gruinhardt, on 06 March 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Simple solution for the simpleminded. Just nerf everything into the ground. By the time this ends, we will be taking turns firing small lasers at each other.

oh and the solution you propose instead is great!

#no solution for the brain-dead?

[Varent]

Mazzyplz, on 06 March 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

oh and the solution you propose instead is great!

#no solution for the brain-dead?

Read the overall thread, plenty of solutions there.

[B0oN]

Yay gents, despise all the words of wisdom dropped...
Check out Rolands post ...

All those greasy, movable, moldable, easily adjustable points of moot discusion are solved there, no fakeshagg´s, trust ma... (better don´t trust me ... I´m Austrian still, and we are effing good en exportin´ things that give horrenduous surprises LAWL ^^) .

Edited by Rad Hanzo, 06 March 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[Gruinhardt]

Mazzyplz, on 06 March 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

oh and the solution you propose instead is great!

#no solution for the brain-dead?

Well if I had a problem with balance, I would give you a solution. The problem I have is the nerf this, nerf that crowd. So a solution would be for you to stop trying to turn a game I enjoy, into something you want.

[IceCase88]

Meta/weapons balance will never be achieved until someone figures out how to nerf the red team and buff the blue team. The only way to truly stop the QQing is to makes hits like they were in TT. By random selection much like how SSRMs function now. Most players do not want that even though it is the best solution. They prefer to QQ, whine, and moan about every aspect of weapons balance, hit reg, weapons convergence, etc thus making PGI use so many reources to fix these problems instead of pushing content out.

[Threat Doc]

The real problem has absolutely nothing to do with balancing, and everything to do with customization, which can be done between matches, blink of an eye. If customization were time or resource limited, the devs could have left the weapon stats as they're supposed to be, and we wouldn't have the problems we do, now. No one listens, and I'm sure I'll catch hell for what I've just written, but it's the truth, and I stand by it.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 06 March 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

not really.... and did you bother to read the rest of the statement about weapons being balanced in situations as upposed to against one another?

Like they are you know.. in every other shooting game?

No one here is arguing that every weapon and mech should be equally valid in every situation. That's just dumb.

What we do want is that every weapon and mech has strengths and weaknesses in equal proportion. Right now, this is absolutely not the case.

Consider SRMs. They have a relatively small range in which they can do damage (270 meter max range), which is a pretty big weakness. In practice, their slow travel time and spread mechanic means their effective range is about half of this, and even at that range you wont' be able to focus all of your damage on a single component, unlike every other direct fire weapon. They're extremely difficult to use against small, fast mechs, and are only really dangerous against bigger, slower targets with large hitboxes.

Considering these massive weakness, it should have massive strengths to balance it out. SRMs are relatively light, and run cooler than energy weapons, and are front-loaded damage if you've got the missile tubes. These are good strengths, but they're not enough. They need to be reliable damage dealers at their optimal ranges, and they just aren't. Their hit detection is spotty, and the damage on hit isn't anything to writ home about, especially since you're guaranteed to scatter it across multiple components.


Contrast it to the PPC. The PPC has its share of weaknesses too. It's useless within 90 meters, runs hot, is the heaviest and bulkiest of the energy weapons, has a relatively slow rate of fire, and doesn't have quite the reach of most ballistic weapons.

But when you look at its strengths, everything turns around. It's got a very fast projectile speed, making it very easy to consistently hit with. With 10 points of pinpoint front-loaded damage, it has no need to maintain facing with the target and can allow its user to deal maximum damage with little exposure time using jump jets or high engine ratings, unlike lasers whose burn time allows the target to twist to mitigate damage and prevents the user from using defensive twisting in order to maximize damage. Its 540 meter "optimal" range allows it to punch holes in mechs at great distances, and most battles are generally decided well outside the PPC's 90 meter minimum range anyway, so that particular weakness isn't too debilitating in practice. Heat similarly isn't a big issue at the ranges the PPC likes to operate. Lighter mechs can simply cool off while repositioning, and heavier mechs can pack cool ballistic weapons to complement their hot PPCs.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 March 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

No one here is arguing that every weapon and mech should be equally valid in every situation. That's just dumb.

What we do want is that every weapon and mech has strengths and weaknesses in equal proportion. Right now, this is absolutely not the case.

Consider SRMs. They have a relatively small range in which they can do damage (270 meter max range), which is a pretty big weakness. In practice, their slow travel time and spread mechanic means their effective range is about half of this, and even at that range you wont' be able to focus all of your damage on a single component, unlike every other direct fire weapon. They're extremely difficult to use against small, fast mechs, and are only really dangerous against bigger, slower targets with large hitboxes.

Considering these massive weakness, it should have massive strengths to balance it out. SRMs are relatively light, and run cooler than energy weapons, and are front-loaded damage if you've got the missile tubes. These are good strengths, but they're not enough. They need to be reliable damage dealers at their optimal ranges, and they just aren't. Their hit detection is spotty, and the damage on hit isn't anything to writ home about, especially since you're guaranteed to scatter it across multiple components.


Contrast it to the PPC. The PPC has its share of weaknesses too. It's useless within 90 meters, runs hot, is the heaviest and bulkiest of the energy weapons, has a relatively slow rate of fire, and doesn't have quite the reach of most ballistic weapons.

But when you look at its strengths, everything turns around. It's got a very fast projectile speed, making it very easy to consistently hit with. With 10 points of pinpoint front-loaded damage, it has no need to maintain facing with the target and can allow its user to deal maximum damage with little exposure time using jump jets or high engine ratings, unlike lasers whose burn time allows the target to twist to mitigate damage and prevents the user from using defensive twisting in order to maximize damage. Its 540 meter "optimal" range allows it to punch holes in mechs at great distances, and most battles are generally decided well outside the PPC's 90 meter minimum range anyway, so that particular weakness isn't too debilitating in practice. Heat similarly isn't a big issue at the ranges the PPC likes to operate. Lighter mechs can simply cool off while repositioning, and heavier mechs can pack cool ballistic weapons to complement their hot PPCs.

Ill be dead honest. My hope is the change to JJ makes the strengths not as prevalent with both the ac and the ppc since there biggest bonuses are at range coming in. However its not fair for me to comment fully on this since my bad net connection atm only will let me experiment with these weapons and not fully do combat. I could give second hand thoughts but I don't feel that would be fair. Most people that ive talked to so far say that its made a major distance and many I know have been steering away from PPC since they say its too much of a liability Now. I also don't feel we can properly compare these items until SRM hit detection is fixed. I do well with them myself... but I love them and focus on them so its also not fair. That said im working on a minor project right now scouring sarna and trying to make a list of alternate weapon manufacture types that could be plugged in that wont effect weight or size so that they could easily be changed out with a lot of the basic mech types. I personally (if this fix doesn't change things) am leaning towards extended CD time myself, but that's me (and the CD time would be on the base FLD model.).

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 06 March 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Ill be dead honest. My hope is the change to JJ makes the strengths not as prevalent with both the ac and the ppc since there biggest bonuses are at range coming in. However its not fair for me to comment fully on this since my bad net connection atm only will let me experiment with these weapons and not fully do combat. I could give second hand thoughts but I don't feel that would be fair. Most people that ive talked to so far say that its made a major distance and many I know have been steering away from PPC since they say its too much of a liability Now.

Really? From what I've seen, only Highlanders really got hit hard by the jump jet changes. Victors got away with a slap on the wrist, and Cataphracts got away scot-free. Everything else is unaffected.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 March 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

Really? From what I've seen, only Highlanders really got hit hard by the jump jet changes. Victors got away with a slap on the wrist, and Cataphracts got away scot-free. Everything else is unaffected.

as I said, can only speak second hand. some people might be misjudging it, im listening over team speak. Ive done my own experiments but there non combat experiments. To me they feel quite quite sluggish overall even with the victor. The cata... got off with a slap ont he wrist... though I think im ok with that overall since its so much lighter and easier to get to the torso. Just my own opinion there. Ill have to refrain for another week, Full net again on the next Thursday (w00t)

[xMintaka]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 March 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

Really? From what I've seen, only Highlanders really got hit hard by the jump jet changes. Victors got away with a slap on the wrist, and Cataphracts got away scot-free. Everything else is unaffected.

Victor's and below can poptart just fine. The only issue my VTR's have run into is their ability to jump brawl. No more jumping over Atlas' and ramming an AC20 into their rear CT.
As far as I can tell, this has only nerfed jump brawlers.
VTR's can still poptart as usual, likewise HGN's if they sacrifice a couple of heatsinks.

The Shawk 2x AC5 + (ER)PPC is completely unnaffected.

[Mazzyplz]

Gruinhardt, on 06 March 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

So a solution would be for you to stop trying to turn a game I enjoy, into something you want.

i shall do no such thing, that is what this forum is for, so players can weigh in so this can turn into a game people want to play - and that lives up to the MW legacy

it's really cute you think the game is perfect now but not even the developers would agree with you there, changes are inbound, much like they have come in the past.

DEAL WITH IT

[Karl Streiger]

Lunatech, on 06 March 2014 - 08:40 PM, said:

Victor's and below can poptart just fine. The only issue my VTR's have run into is their ability to jump brawl. No more jumping over Atlas' and ramming an AC20 into their rear CT.
As far as I can tell, this has only nerfed jump brawlers.
VTR's can still poptart as usual, likewise HGN's if they sacrifice a couple of heatsinks.

The Shawk 2x AC5 + (ER)PPC is completely unnaffected.

Exactly...the i don't understand why the turn rate while jumping was reduced....a Stalker can almost turn 90-100° while you turn 180°
And i did this attack before the first JumpJet "Buff - or Fix" hit the deck.....(before the highlander)

To make Poptarting less attractive - but still viable - the climb rate has to be reduced. The pure heat of this exhaust should also be more as enough to disable any effects for ECM - the IR-Flare must be more as enough to instant lock LRMs on that Jumper (ok LRMs are not of value but they can be disturbing)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 March 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[Noesis]

Gruinhardt, on 06 March 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

Well if I had a problem with balance, I would give you a solution. The problem I have is the nerf this, nerf that crowd. So a solution would be for you to stop trying to turn a game I enjoy, into something you want.

Or alternatively the game could have better balancing characteristics that would allow more than just yourself to enjoy MWO perhaps?

This only really established by PGI through analysis of the game play data and player opinion. Where hopefully with some maturity you may have to accept that as part of that process some elements will be fine tuned in terms of relative performance.

[Lykaon]

IceCase88, on 06 March 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Meta/weapons balance will never be achieved until someone figures out how to nerf the red team and buff the blue team. The only way to truly stop the QQing is to makes hits like they were in TT. By random selection much like how SSRMs function now. Most players do not want that even though it is the best solution. They prefer to QQ, whine, and moan about every aspect of weapons balance, hit reg, weapons convergence, etc thus making PGI use so many reources to fix these problems instead of pushing content out.

You are mostly correct, random hit location would fix a great deal of the problems but only because the problems it will fix stem from using the table top game's armor mechanics with no regard for how it will function when removed from it's supporting mechanics.

The problem with the RNG is it removes player determination and skill from the equation.MWO with random hit locations would be a complete waste of hard drive space for me.

A solution can be found in examining how the armor mechanics are failing when pressed into service in a twitch shooter game when those armor mechanics were specificly designed to not have to handle focused pinpoint damage aimed at critical mech body locations at will.

Some people have suggested altering our front loaded damage weapons into hitscan weapons.This would emulate a support mechanic for the armor mechanics,allowing defensive manuvers to alter impact points replacing RNG hit locations with reactive damage dispersal controled by a player's reactions,so skill based and not random.
But at a cost of tactical diversity in weapon use.( A laser would be fired with the same technique as an auto cannon if both used the same mechanics for damage delivery)

I guess what I'm saying is perhaps we should stop looking at weapons and look at armor mechanics.

[Karl Streiger]

Lykaon, on 07 March 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

I guess what I'm saying is perhaps we should stop looking at weapons and look at armor mechanics.

Give me a reason why i should waste a shot at the tiny arms of a JaegerMech - when i only need 10% more to kill the whole Mech

[Mazzyplz]

Lykaon, on 07 March 2014 - 07:05 AM, said:

You are mostly correct, random hit location would fix a great deal of the problems but only because the problems it will fix stem from using the table top game's armor mechanics with no regard for how it will function when removed from it's supporting mechanics.

The problem with the RNG is it removes player determination and skill from the equation.MWO with random hit locations would be a complete waste of hard drive space for me.

A solution can be found in examining how the armor mechanics are failing when pressed into service in a twitch shooter game when those armor mechanics were specificly designed to not have to handle focused pinpoint damage aimed at critical mech body locations at will.

Some people have suggested altering our front loaded damage weapons into hitscan weapons.This would emulate a support mechanic for the armor mechanics,allowing defensive manuvers to alter impact points replacing RNG hit locations with reactive damage dispersal controled by a player's reactions,so skill based and not random.
But at a cost of tactical diversity in weapon use.( A laser would be fired with the same technique as an auto cannon if both used the same mechanics for damage delivery)

I guess what I'm saying is perhaps we should stop looking at weapons and look at armor mechanics.

an autocanon that shoots hitscan? it's by definition a projectile, how would you make that work?
it wouldn't.

what you need to do is give pinpoint weapons lower dmg than hitscan, because of the burn time hitscan has - then single-location armor wouldn't be wrecked by 1 shot of pinpoint