118 replies to this topic

[WarZ]

Khobai, on 04 March 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

The problem is when they can jump and shoot you for 30-40 damage in the same spot

NO. The problem was they could jump and shoot you for 30-40 damage, BUT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO CHANCE TO SHOOT THEM BACK. Jump sniping was jumping up, unloading your alpha, then dropping back into perfect cover so the enemy didnt have a chance to return fire.

That is called high reward for LOW risk. In other words, an exploit. Unfair. Free shot. Broken.

They have only marginally addressed it at this point.

As noted, people will just migrate to the new builds and/or chasis that will allow them to continue the tactic.

And yes, there was a small chance to hit the jump snipers as they popped up. But compared to any other mech without jump jets that had to actually WALK out of cover, then WALK back to cover (which opens plenty of time for return fire), you had the tiniest of windows to return fire on the jump sniper, IF YOU EVEN GOT THE CHANCE AT ALL.

THAT is the darn problem.

It is a whole 'nother facet of tactical ability that essentially invalidates mechs without jump jets.

They want to keep the tactic so darn badly (or are too scared of the masses who actually employ it), that they are only half heartedly addressing it.

I had hoped for more out of this change.

[El Bandito]

Foxfire, on 04 March 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

At least, with the Illy, you can use a 4x to get similar results. Not as good with the distribution of the ballistic points of the Illy but you can at least get close to what the Illy can do.

With 255 max engine rating? 4X sucks.

WarZ, on 04 March 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

NO. The problem was they could jump and shoot you for 30-40 damage, BUT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO CHANCE TO SHOOT THEM BACK. Jump sniping was jumping up, unloading your alpha, then dropping back into perfect cover so the enemy didnt have a chance to return fire.

That is called high reward for LOW risk. In other words, an exploit. Unfair. Free shot. Broken.

-snip-

Ballistic range should be nerfed to 2X. Poptarting will hurt less.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 March 2014 - 06:37 PM.

[R Razor]

Ahhh yes, the sweet sweet tears of the pop tart crowd now that they've finally had some adjustments made to their 1337 skillz required mechs............waited a LONG time for this one.

[Damocles69]

R Razor, on 04 March 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

Ahhh yes, the sweet sweet tears of the pop tart crowd now that they've finally had some adjustments made to their 1337 skillz required mechs............waited a LONG time for this one.

..............................................................................................

[Alex Warden]

GREAT, that means i can take my HGN again without being insulted as a "poptarting noob" when i actually don´t poptart at all

[Corvus Antaka]

If the entire jumping event happened about 2-3 times or more as fast as currently trying to fire during that brief moment of stability would be a lot tougher, and you'd also actually fly through air a lot faster making you harder to hit instead of a floating blimp, and the 1 jumpjet would be even less useful I'd think.

[General Taskeen]

Carrioncrows, on 04 March 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

The plan was to appear to be fixing things without actually addressing the issue.

Jumpjets should have x300% more thrust for about half duration.

You can only activate jumpjets if you have 50% or more thrust.

Now they are useful for what they are intended for, getting around terrain. Not creating good year blimps.

Hey if you can nail someone in mid air with those speeds, good on you.

Yeah, but Paul or (other Design Leads?) don't quite understand making them actually like that would be a far better option then the constant whackamole back and forth fiddling with current, less than stellar Jump Jet mechanics. I feel like JJ's in this game are a far cry from fun factor in previous titles, and definitely not the super thrust JJ's in TT launching yourself however many grids either forward, backward, or sideways from a standstill.

Instead, the Devs and (players) are faulting other players for using JJ's in MWO for the very limited function available to them which is how they have been programmed, which are Goodyear Blimp, or Shaq Fu (aka "jump sniping").

Its essentially the same whackamole type fiddling in which Ghost Heat was born or ECM, instead of reworking functionality from scratch to get at the root.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I'm pretty sure this wasn't meant to kill off poptarts. If that was the goal screen shake on the way down would have been more than enough. However this was an issue that needed to be addressed anyhow so it is not a bad idea to go ahead and fix this and then see where things stand before trying to do anything to poptarts.

[RamsoPanzer]

Before the patch:

Highlander >>>>> The rest

After the patch

Highlander >>>> The rest

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

My impression is that this is a mechanics pass to lay groundwork for further changes down the road.

[Lukoi Banacek]

IronChance, on 04 March 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

With 1 JJ in my VTR-9K, I can't poptart. With all 6 JJs, I have more air than I need. I'll have to play around with it to find the right number for me. Seems like that's a good thing.

The jump turn is noticeably diminished.

The JJ recharge is the most noticeable nerf to me. It seems like I have to wait twice as long as before. This means I can poptart only half as much. Probably a good thing. I need to be more choosy about when I do it anyway.

He's not the only one to note that a 1-JJ VTR is no longer tenable compared to previously. Significant drop off.

[Mister Blastman]

Deathlike, on 04 March 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

AFAIK, the notable change is the JJ recharge. To me, the turn rate has not actually been adjusted at all, but I need to test this more to be sure.

Turn rate is definitely slower on the VTR and HGN. So is the recharge.

[Vercinaigh]

http://www.reddit.co..._thread/cfudgo5

[Trauglodyte]

The only issue that I have with this is that they scaled the turn rate. I don't mind them hitting the turn rate and I actually support it. But, what is the point of nuking the Highlander's turn rate when it was really the Jenner/Firestarter/Spider being able to do 360s in mid-air that really was the problem. If people have ever seen a badass Jenner pilot abusing JJs, it is really insane. At worst, Jenner pilots now lose 2 DHSs to get max JJs so that their capabilities go untouched. But, JJs are still way too cool (1.5 heat on use = big damned deal) and we don't have any heat penalties for idiots that just go around spamming their weapons. This treated a part of the problem but the cancer is still coursing through the body.

[Sephlock]

Trauglodyte, on 04 March 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

it was really the Jenner/Firestarter/Spider being able to do 360s in mid-air that really was the problem.

[mekabuser]

WarZ, on 04 March 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

NO. The problem was they could jump and shoot you for 30-40 damage, BUT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO CHANCE TO SHOOT THEM BACK. Jump sniping was jumping up, unloading your alpha, then dropping back into perfect cover so the enemy didnt have a chance to return fire.

That is called high reward for LOW risk. In other words, an exploit. Unfair. Free shot. Broken.

They have only marginally addressed it at this point.

As noted, people will just migrate to the new builds and/or chasis that will allow them to continue the tactic.

And yes, there was a small chance to hit the jump snipers as they popped up. But compared to any other mech without jump jets that had to actually WALK out of cover, then WALK back to cover (which opens plenty of time for return fire), you had the tiniest of windows to return fire on the jump sniper, IF YOU EVEN GOT THE CHANCE AT ALL.

THAT is the darn problem.

It is a whole 'nother facet of tactical ability that essentially invalidates mechs without jump jets.

They want to keep the tactic so darn badly (or are too scared of the masses who actually employ it), that they are only half heartedly addressing it.

I had hoped for more out of this change.

disagree. For one.. you get hit once with a large alpha, dont you make damn sure you are behind cover.. AND change your position? Second. Cant you see the JS HGN etc from a mile away? the ppcs streaking, the freakin huge highlander floating in mid air? I dont get it.. quite a few mechs are VERY good at peeking around corners, whether or not you stand there , or only quickly peek out and back, a Highlander in mid air or jumpsniping is generally an easy target. especially if you have the shot from the ground. iow. you are not also using JJ to get your shot.
Nine times out of ten, A JJ hgn doesnt even register as a threat to me. Its an opportunity.

[lsp]

SLDF LawDog, on 04 March 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Dont think yall get it, get it at all. They left "SOME" Poptarting in, (Victors / 3D's) but you your brawling capability (turn on a dime with JJ) is DED. Highlanders got hit hard. They will have to take max JJ to do what they did, and only be mediocre due to travel speed.

Some will adapt, some wont. This is where a new "META" will be formed and ppl will cry about it and ask for the NERF bomb cause they get rolled by a new tactic or weapon being deployed against them.

Lol, this. I've seen it happpen so many t ime sover the past two years.

[lsp]

WarZ, on 04 March 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

NO. The problem was they could jump and shoot you for 30-40 damage, BUT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO CHANCE TO SHOOT THEM BACK. Jump sniping was jumping up, unloading your alpha, then dropping back into perfect cover so the enemy didnt have a chance to return fire.

That is called high reward for LOW risk. In other words, an exploit. Unfair. Free shot. Broken.

They have only marginally addressed it at this point.

As noted, people will just migrate to the new builds and/or chasis that will allow them to continue the tactic.

And yes, there was a small chance to hit the jump snipers as they popped up. But compared to any other mech without jump jets that had to actually WALK out of cover, then WALK back to cover (which opens plenty of time for return fire), you had the tiniest of windows to return fire on the jump sniper, IF YOU EVEN GOT THE CHANCE AT ALL.

THAT is the darn problem.

It is a whole 'nother facet of tactical ability that essentially invalidates mechs without jump jets.

They want to keep the tactic so darn badly (or are too scared of the masses who actually employ it), that they are only half heartedly addressing it.

I had hoped for more out of this change.

Just because something is effective doesn't mean it's unfair or a exploit. You work for a union don't you? You think wars are fought with what's "fair" or hey, we need to give these guys a chance! No, you do everything you can to put the other guy at a disadvantage. The meta isn't going to change, and even if it did people would just move on to the next most effective thing. And t han people would cry about it, until PGI nerfs it. And the cycle would repeat, been watching it happen for two years now.

Edited by lsp, 04 March 2014 - 08:30 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mister Blastman, on 04 March 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Turn rate is definitely slower on the VTR and HGN. So is the recharge.

Yet, I'm still standing just fine with my Highlander. I guess that's "Mission Accomplished". Paul did exactly what he does best...

[Asmudius Heng]

Just make JJ reticle shake the whole way through (less when not jetting) and improve brawling weapons then you will see hill humping and jump sniping but it will be countered by brawlers who can use cover. The rewards of terrible range should be significant infighting damage.

Balance is an ecosystem and this one nerf will not make significant changes when there is a bunch of stuff that leads to the current meta not just jump jets.