118 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

NO. The problem was they could jump and shoot you for 30-40 damage, BUT YOU HAVE LITTLE TO NO CHANCE TO SHOOT THEM BACK.

I never had a problem shooting them back. The problem is unless you have the same 30-40 pinpoint damage setup then you arnt hurting them as much as theyre hurting you...

When the best counter to poptarts is more pinpoint damage, and all non pinpoint weapons are inferior, it makes for a very boring and unbalanced game.

[Ixios]

LegoPirate, on 04 March 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

from reddit (posted by jman5)



I'm not sure I completely understand all this but this is how I interpret the values in the itemStats file.
For JJ Class I (Highlanders):

• 
  
  Cooldown was changed from 1.0 to 0.625. My interpretation of this is a reduction in cooldown refresh rate. (takes longer to refresh)
  
• 
  
  JJ Duration is increased from 3.75 seconds to 6 seconds. This compensate for other reduced values below.
  
• 
  
  The instant boost was decreased from 614.29 to 250 (about 40% original value)
  
• 
  
  Boost_z was reduced from 71.43 to 62. I don't know if this is a max height or a climb rate value.
  
• 
  
  A new value was added to jumpjets called "turn". On the JJ I it's 0.7. You can probably read that as normal turn rate reduced to 70% effectiveness while jump jetting.

For JJ Class II (Victors)

• 
  
  Cooldown changed from 1.0 to 0.5.
  
• 
  
  Turn Speed changed from 1.0 to 0.6. So you can only turn at 60% effectiveness while JJing.
  
• 
  
  The rest is unchanged

For JJ Class III (All Heavies)

• 
  
  Cooldown changed from 1.0 to 0.65
  
• 
  
  Turn rate is at 80% effectiveness compared to normal
  
• 
  
  rest is unchanged

For JJ Class IV (Mediums)

• 
  
  Cooldown changed from 1.0 to 0.7
  
• 
  
  Everything else unchanged except mid-air turn speed is 90% effectiveness compared to normal

For JJ Class V (Lights)

• 
  
  No Changes
  
• 
  
  Mid-Air turnspeed is 100% compared to normal turn speed.

I'm unsure how adding more jumpjets changes things except longer jump duration and higher max climb.


so, basically the highlander jumpjets got thrown in the dumpster and no other real changes were made.

It almost looks like they've accidentally swapped the class 1 and 2 stats around...


Ix

[Varent]

Chemie, on 04 March 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

Paul, You were right, you took the nerf gun to the HGN...but only the HGN. If the intent was to move everyone over to Victors, then mission accomplished. If the intent was to stop jump sniping, then gg close but sorry.

For HGN, the total height is the same with one JJ but the climb rate is mega-nerfed. I don't understand why the patch notes say that it "scales" but the fact is one JJ still allows you to climb very high...just with HGN it takes soooo long it is hopeless and no more sniping. 2 JJ? Still hopeless. I have not bothered to try 4 JJ cuz 8 tons ain't worth it compared to taking a different chassis.

So now Victor and 3D are untouched and with 1 JJ can pop tart away.

What exactly the was the plan here?

The thrust and movement is much much slower, its not about how high you can get, its about how fast it moves you. At higher levels of competition the time you stay in the air as a target is now considered to be FAR to long wich basically has already put the stake through the heart of jump sniping in the higher elo tier. The patch was a very high success.

[Trauglodyte]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

The thrust and movement is much much slower, its not about how high you can get, its about how fast it moves you. At higher levels of competition the time you stay in the air as a target is now considered to be FAR to long wich basically has already put the stake through the heart of jump sniping in the higher elo tier. The patch was a very high success.

It also had the impact of limiting how quickly that you could jump twist. The turn rate was hit pretty hard for the heavier mechs but the increased recharge time really kind of hampers how much you can reallocate damage to other areas. I'm still finding Jenners/Firestartes/Spiders to be as annoying as they were before. But, I imagine that they're ok with JJ capable Lights obsceleting anything that is land locked.

I do ask this, though: Would having a higher heat cost and a possible incrimental HPS value set to jump jets be something that is needed? 1.5 heat on use is pretty weak.

[Joseph Mallan]

A lighter Mech should get more dexterous movement than a Ponderous Highlander. I remember during Closed Beta a Lawman was showing off how well his spider could jump. An proceeded to pirouette around the team bobbing up and down spinning like a ballerina. A Highlander would look silly doing something similar.

[TygerLily]

Trauglodyte, on 04 March 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

The only issue that I have with this is that they scaled the turn rate. I don't mind them hitting the turn rate and I actually support it. But, what is the point of nuking the Highlander's turn rate when it was really the Jenner/Firestarter/Spider being able to do 360s in mid-air that really was the problem. If people have ever seen a badass Jenner pilot abusing JJs, it is really insane. At worst, Jenner pilots now lose 2 DHSs to get max JJs so that their capabilities go untouched. But, JJs are still way too cool (1.5 heat on use = big damned deal) and we don't have any heat penalties for idiots that just go around spamming their weapons. This treated a part of the problem but the cancer is still coursing through the body.

Well, Jenners get 7.4 tons of armor at max...the Highlander gets 17.4 tons. Speed IS the Jenner's armor...

It's almost as if the design goal of eliminating the "arms race" to the biggest chassis is being met! /sarcasm

Khobai, on 04 March 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

I never had a problem shooting them back. The problem is unless you have the same 30-40 pinpoint damage setup then you arnt hurting them as much as theyre hurting you...

When the best counter to poptarts is more pinpoint damage, and all non pinpoint weapons are inferior, it makes for a very boring and unbalanced game.

EXACTLY.

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 05 March 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

It also had the impact of limiting how quickly that you could jump twist. The turn rate was hit pretty hard for the heavier mechs but the increased recharge time really kind of hampers how much you can reallocate damage to other areas. I'm still finding Jenners/Firestartes/Spiders to be as annoying as they were before. But, I imagine that they're ok with JJ capable Lights obsceleting anything that is land locked.

I do ask this, though: Would having a higher heat cost and a possible incrimental HPS value set to jump jets be something that is needed? 1.5 heat on use is pretty weak.

mediums werent hit to hard either. They can actually still jump snipe effectively. I like it.

[Trauglodyte]

My Shadowhawk 2H (2 of 3 JJs) was still a little sluggish. But, that was more due to the cool down change and I'm more than ok with it. The point, though, is that having JJs, even if you only have one, is still better than not having JJs. So, while PGI reduced the capabilities of the heavier jump capable mechs, the lighter end of the scale is still doing just fine. And, again, I'm ok with that. But, what bothers me is that there is no heat issue with using JJs which means that players will continue to use them in a means other than their intended use (movement).

So, again: would there much of an issue in increasing the heat on use and adding incrimental heat over time?

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 05 March 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

My Shadowhawk 2H (2 of 3 JJs) was still a little sluggish. But, that was more due to the cool down change and I'm more than ok with it. The point, though, is that having JJs, even if you only have one, is still better than not having JJs. So, while PGI reduced the capabilities of the heavier jump capable mechs, the lighter end of the scale is still doing just fine. And, again, I'm ok with that. But, what bothers me is that there is no heat issue with using JJs which means that players will continue to use them in a means other than their intended use (movement).

So, again: would there much of an issue in increasing the heat on use and adding incrimental heat over time?

I wouldnt mind. Im willing to bet someone would cry and whine about it though and sight things being too hot and them being slowed down from just holding down the trigger lol.

[Trauglodyte]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

I wouldnt mind. Im willing to bet someone would cry and whine about it though and sight things being too hot and them being slowed down from just holding down the trigger lol.

Maybe I'm crusading the wrong war, I dont' know. But, the fact that JJ capable mechs have been and are still so much better than their land locked brethren really bothers me from teh stand point of balance. If mech A has the same number of hard points and speed as mech B but mech A has JJs to avoid the pebbles of steel, something is off. Yes, they have to pay tonnage and criticals for their use but TT was really clear about the heat use (3 points of heat [10% of the total scale] at the minimum and 1 point of heat for every JJ equipped). MWO is set at 1.5 heat on use regardless of the number you have. Combined with our outrageous heat scale, using JJs isn't much of anything at all and will, on some maps, have it's heat removed before you're done using them.

[Varent]

Trauglodyte, on 05 March 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Maybe I'm crusading the wrong war, I dont' know. But, the fact that JJ capable mechs have been and are still so much better than their land locked brethren really bothers me from teh stand point of balance. If mech A has the same number of hard points and speed as mech B but mech A has JJs to avoid the pebbles of steel, something is off. Yes, they have to pay tonnage and criticals for their use but TT was really clear about the heat use (3 points of heat [10% of the total scale] at the minimum and 1 point of heat for every JJ equipped). MWO is set at 1.5 heat on use regardless of the number you have. Combined with our outrageous heat scale, using JJs isn't much of anything at all and will, on some maps, have it's heat removed before you're done using them.

Shrug. They are. I think they are sorta supposed to be? But then thats my own opinion. Im not sure what they could do with that. Heat could be a thing I guess. I just think you will have tons of people crying about it. Wich will make it unfavorable and thus moot. Specially with the recent changes to JJ so soon. Give it a few months then try to hit it again would be my suggestion.

[PhoenixFire55]

Ok. So I'm not sure bout the rest of you guys, but here is what I did today after the patch ...

I took my 'meta' HGL-733C (with one JJ onboard) for a spin, then 'meta' Victor (2 JJs), then 'meta' Spider (1 JJ) and then non-meta Jenner (2 JJ).

Result might be interesting for you ...

I see practically NO difference in my gameplay in HGL with 1 JJ. I see no difference whatsoever for Victor. But I see HUGE difference for a Spider and minor one for a Jenner.

My opinion, this JJ 'fix' hurts lights more than assaults. At least for me. Half a ton or a ton isn't much on a light I guess, but still. No change for me in my 'poptarting?' style of play in HGL / VIC. We still need a convergence fix.

[Trauglodyte]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 March 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Ok. So I'm not sure bout the rest of you guys, but here is what I did today after the patch ... I took my 'meta' HGL-733C (with one JJ onboard) for a spin, then 'meta' Victor (2 JJs), then 'meta' Spider (1 JJ) and then non-meta Jenner (2 JJ). Result might be interesting for you ... I see practically NO difference in my gameplay in HGL with 1 JJ. I see no difference whatsoever for Victor. But I see HUGE difference for a Spider and minor one for a Jenner. My opinion, this JJ 'fix' hurts lights more than assaults. At least for me. Half a ton or a ton isn't much on a light I guess, but still. No change for me in my 'poptarting?' style of play in HGL / VIC. We still need a convergence fix.

That is an interesting anecdotal find, Phoenix. My Victor and Shawk both felt sluggish in turning while JJing but the thrust didn't feel that different. What was different, though, was how often that I could jump. That was the weird part. I found myself getting hammered a couple of times in Canyon and Forest cause I jumped up on some rock formations of varying levels but was out of fuel and the time it took to recharge to get me out of that spot was longer than I wanted. But, I call that a good thing.

[Varent]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 March 2014 - 12:21 PM, said:

Ok. So I'm not sure bout the rest of you guys, but here is what I did today after the patch ...

I took my 'meta' HGL-733C (with one JJ onboard) for a spin, then 'meta' Victor (2 JJs), then 'meta' Spider (1 JJ) and then non-meta Jenner (2 JJ).

Result might be interesting for you ...

I see practically NO difference in my gameplay in HGL with 1 JJ. I see no difference whatsoever for Victor. But I see HUGE difference for a Spider and minor one for a Jenner.

My opinion, this JJ 'fix' hurts lights more than assaults. At least for me. Half a ton or a ton isn't much on a light I guess, but still. No change for me in my 'poptarting?' style of play in HGL / VIC. We still need a convergence fix.

I would question how your using your jump jets. The change was to drastically alter jump sniping, wich it has, dramatically. So... ya not much more to add there to that one. I would say most people arent noticing any different at all or if nothing else mild differences on the other end of the spectrum.

[PhoenixFire55]

Trauglodyte, on 05 March 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

That is an interesting anecdotal find, Phoenix. My Victor and Shawk both felt sluggish in turning while JJing but the thrust didn't feel that different. What was different, though, was how often that I could jump. That was the weird part. I found myself getting hammered a couple of times in Canyon and Forest cause I jumped up on some rock formations of varying levels but was out of fuel and the time it took to recharge to get me out of that spot was longer than I wanted. But, I call that a good thing.

Had a talk with a friend on TS today, he says his ShadowHawk with 2 JJs isn't jumping anymore, like at all ...
I find it anecdotal myself, will do some more testing tomorrow.

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

I would question how your using your jump jets. The change was to drastically alter jump sniping, wich it has, dramatically. So... ya not much more to add there to that one. I would say most people arent noticing any different at all or if nothing else mild differences on the other end of the spectrum.

Well ... jump sniping for the most part I guess. I never did jump all that high, I just barely need to get my weapons over the ridge to let a shot off, thats why I used only 1 JJ in the first place, was more than enough to be able to brawl with SRM packs. I didn't expect this part to be different, problem is I didn't notice much change in turn rate when I'm at zero or low speeds. At 100% speed, it does seem to turn slower in the air, but not by much. I might be wrong tho, will have to do some more running around and messing with number of JJs tomorrow.

[Varent]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 March 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Had a talk with a friend on TS today, he says his ShadowHawk with 2 JJs isn't jumping anymore, like at all ...
I find it anecdotal myself, will do some more testing tomorrow.



Well ... jump sniping for the most part I guess. I never did jump all that high, I just barely need to get my weapons over the ridge to let a shot off, thats why I used only 1 JJ in the first place, was more than enough to be able to brawl with SRM packs. I didn't expect this part to be different, problem is I didn't notice much change in turn rate when I'm at zero or low speeds. At 100% speed, it does seem to turn slower in the air, but not by much. I might be wrong tho, will have to do some more running around and messing with number of JJs tomorrow.

you should be notice a very distinctive time different in how long it takes to get to different heights with one jj. basically an extended time in the air.

[Trauglodyte]

PhoenixFire55, on 05 March 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Had a talk with a friend on TS today, he says his ShadowHawk with 2 JJs isn't jumping anymore, like at all ...
I find it anecdotal myself, will do some more testing tomorrow.

Btw, "anecdotal" wasn't meant as a slight. I just find it interesting how we're all kind of differing in our opions of JJs. It is going to take some time for this all to shake out.

[SirLANsalot]

To point a few things out to those that seemed to have missed THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE JJ CHANGE.


Jump Jets were not supposed to allow you to circumnavigate an assaults turning speed. Those that used JJ to turn around faster were abusing a system that was not intended to be used in that manner. Works fine for light mechs who already can turn around pretty fast.

Jump Jets are now what they are supposed to be, terrain navigation. Ya you can poptart with them but thats been around since....well...forever (ever since there was an online mechwarrior). That will never change (and is easily beaten with good gunnery skills), and the "shake" was a stupid idea to begin with as it hurt lights the most who used it to shoot there target while jumping over it.


As for the Victor? It uses a Heavy Mechs class of JJ, so this change was aimed at the big boy JJ. If you are wanting to poptart, you are going to need to dedicate more tonnage to that. They didn't take it away, they just made you more honest about it. Just like with the ERPPC, if you want to take a pair of those weapons, you are going to need to dedicate more of your mech tonnage to keeping them cool. Its the easiest way to balance anything in the game that might be perceived as "OP". You can still do said thing, but you are going to need to pay in more tonnage in doing so.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 05 March 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[Coralld]

SirLANsalot, on 05 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

To point a few things out to those that seemed to have missed THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE JJ CHANGE.


Jump Jets were not supposed to allow you to circumnavigate an assaults turning speed. Those that used JJ to turn around faster were abusing a system that was not intended to be used in that manner. Works fine for light mechs who already can turn around pretty fast.

Jump Jets are now what they are supposed to be, terrain navigation. Ya you can poptart with them but thats been around since....well...forever (ever since there was an online mechwarrior). That will never change (and is easily beaten with good gunnery skills), and the "shake" was a stupid idea to begin with as it hurt lights the most who used it to shoot there target while jumping over it.

You and others may not like the JJ shake but in actuality it is based off of Advanced Movement Rules for TT which allows you to jump shoot but when you do you get hit with an accuracy penalty. The problem however is that PGI went half-assed on it when you should be affected by it the whole ride and not just when the JJs are in use, so, if anything, you should be thanking PGI for still allowing you to get away with your front load PPC+AC alpha poptarting.

Personally, I have no problem with people jump shooting, but when they are able to constantly put the 30 to 40 points of damage to 1 location over and over and over again is what I am fed up with. So I say make it so that when you JJ you get hit with the accuracy penalty the whole ride through, that, or make it so ACs are burst fire and PPCs function differently, or both. Poptarting was suppose to be low risk with very low reward, not low risk with stupidly high reward.

Some will bash me for having these ideas and opinions and I could really care less.

As for the current JJ changes, I believe they are step in the right direction but as some here have stated before, more needs to be done in some shape or form.

Edited by Coralld, 05 March 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[SirLANsalot]

Coralld, on 05 March 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

You and others may not like the JJ shake but in actuality it is based off of Advanced Movement Rules for TT which allows you to jump shoot but when you do you get hit with an accuracy penalty. The problem however is that PGI went half-assed on it when you should be affected by it the whole ride and not just when the JJs are in use, so, if anything, you should be thanking PGI for still allowing you to get away with your front load PPC+AC alpha poptarting.

Personally, I have no problem with people jump shooting, but when they are able to constantly put the 30 to 40 points of damage to 1 location over and over and over again is what I am fed up with. So I say make it so that when you JJ you get hit with the accuracy penalty the whole ride through, that, or make it so ACs are burst fire and PPCs function differently, or both. Poptarting was suppose to be low risk with very low reward, not low risk with stupidly high reward.

Some will bash me for having these ideas and opinions and I could really care less.

Game is not table top. Stop pulling rules for a game that this is not.