Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:
@ Tesunie
1. Whats you canon source for this, or are you waiting for someone else to confirm what you think you might know?
2. Which seems to be prety much your contribution to the discussion here, offer no canon but simply try and discredit what is in canon because it doesn't suit you. Make a construction contribution.
3. You make no mention in your quote about Phelans Wolves being inclusive or exclusive of the absorbtion which was the key point. Your references to timing within that make no linkage. With the benefit of Jaroths quote you might want to jump on that band wagon but given your history of non canon I find it hard to believe.
4. So they did lose right? Which was my statement. And they did. And yes it was 4 - 1 but that doesn't change that they did lose. I put up canon that supports my statement, You still have got nothing to refute it. They did lose.
5. Do you even read the posts here. Both Jaroth and myself are posting the the Tukayyid Campaign was "ended" before the Wolf trial was finished. Its right there several times. We posted exactly the same thing. This point is the key aspect of the whole Tukayyid discussion. And yet here you are still arguing it was premature? Your memory might be great, but your ability to comprehend is in massive doubt if that's any indication.
6. Absolute dribble. If the warriors of Clan Wolf did not finish their battle you are making an apples to apples comparison to every other Clan that did finish their battle (whatever that outcome might have been). You sir are far to dedicated to your ideas to be able to step back and look at the points objectivily.
7. All you have shown here is firstly that you did not read the canon I posted, and that you have very little understanding of the bidding process. They bid against each other, so of course a 'high bid' is a losing bid. And yes, after arguing so long that it was a joint Ulric Comstar decision to terminate the campaign, you now place all the responibility on Comstar. No canon to support that, but my presentation was on a solid deduction. ie, UK we give up it's 4- 2 at best, AF oh ok, ceasefire then?
8. What a ridiculous thing to say. Jaroth assembled some canon to refute a point, he did not offer any canon irrelevant to the point he was making. And you somehow you elevate what he does when he does exactly the same as I do. He had a point and supported it with canon. Something I have invited you to do several times which you have yet to do. I get that what he did supports a point you couldn't make yourself so maybe you should thank him, but don't portray that it's anything more than what it, he made a point and supported it with canon. For example, he did not present any canon about the grand crusader conspiracy at Tukayyid when 4 warden Clans apparently sucumbed to the 2 Crusaders cause. By your standard he's guilty of the same thing I am, presenting a distorted picture. Oh wait, no thats right, he presented canon to support his point, same as me.
9. Fair enough, but you seem to be pretty quick to hold me up to a higher standard of correctness, so I expect no less than you. Treat other people as you expect to be treated. I think if you reread this thread I was pretty fair and even with everyone until I started getting flamed (by you as I recall) for asking people to keep the discussion on a canon basis. But I digress.
10. And again, you clearly have not read or comprehended. Let me be clear.
Clan Wolf won at Tukayyid
It was an ajudged victory based on the fact that they were holding both cities at the time the Campaign for Tukayyid was 'ended'.
The canon also shows that Clan Wolf had not defeated their opponents in the field, and that a counter attack was pending. So we know for a fact that were it not for the Campaign being 'ended' that Clan Wolf would still be fighting to meet the conditions of their trial (ie, hold both cities). The trial was not a 'first to tag wins' trial, this was a battle between two forces. If your enemy is still in the field fighting, then the status of the objective is still in doubt, it can be retaken.
11. How about you go find it out if its important to you. I doubt you will as you seem to have very little interest in canon unless it suits your preferred world, but hey go for it.
12. You seem to consistently cloud the fact that Clan Wolf's trial was not the Campaign for Tukayyid, it was bigger than just them. Clan Wolf did not secure a firm outcome in their trial by dint of their warriors efforts. Period. End of story
Are you seriously trying to tell me that you see a description of "overnight" (and I had previously said 2 days) as me misrepresenting a battle of two days. What country has an a three day battle with only one night? Or are you of the view that unless canon timestamps a full 48 hours it's not a two day battle? Honestly this reads of more that you are attacking me instead of making a positive canon based contribution.
And as for your little summary at the end, well yes all those little details do make a difference. Not to the point we were discussing, but the do make a difference. Pretty sure I did summarise that different ways as "giving as good as they got" (cause well Comstar tried for Wolf supply depots too you know) and "Heavy stuff" (cause the battle wasn't one sided you see) but sure. By all means we can clog up thread with all sorts of canon that has no bearing to the point.
And as for you subsequent post just after. No it has not. I have 7 points which canon supports that paint a picture of Clan Wolf being weaker than other Clans. So far Jaroth has produced an argument that Clan Wolf was not 'absorbed" which I have conceded and amened my view accordingly. But that tangent point does not change that Clan Wolf STILL LOST, they surrendered or ran away form the CoE, thats canon.
If you feel up to it I invite you to prove Clan Wolf 'top dog' or whatever statement you want to make with a canon based argument. This is what, the third time I have invited you to and still you offer nothing. If you want to let someone else fight your battles for you, then watch and see.
1. Yes. Exactly. Seen as everything I say is "non-canon" yet has been mostly proven to be true... I'm not even bothering to try and prove anything to you anymore. Haven't you noticed this?
2. I once was trying to post canon. It was refuted as "not canon". Then, someone else (Jaroth to name one and others, thanks) posted the canon sources I was lacking and proved my point for me, with canon. (Which you refuted as "not being canon" for a stupid reason.)
3. My reference to timing was based off the canon Jaroth (which was fun to read by the way) posted. I drew my own conclusion from it, which was clearly spelled out within the lore posted from what I could see. I posted this conclusion, only to hear you say "Canon?" It's already been posted for me. I drew my statement from that posted canon. Do I need to repost it?
4. They initially lost, but then was redeemed due to the dishonorable conduct preformed on the part of Falcon. So yes. They lost. But they didn't lose. From Vlad's words, apparently they only really lost on that one world (which probably is not entirely true, but it sounds like the Wolves were winning, till their leadership got cut out from under them). Re-read Jaroth's posts again. It's all there...
5. Yes. The match (wait, didn't I say this already) was called before Comstar could press another counter attack. However, Ulric didn't call the match by himself (didn't I say this already). At the end of the trial, whenever that was deemed by Comstar and the Clans (didn't I say this already), Clan Wolf took and held their two objectives (didn't I say this too already?). By the agreements of the trial, Clan Wolf won. No one else seemed to argue that fact. No Clan argued that they won or lost. The Clans called it a decisive win. From what I read, they gave Comstar a thrashing, and was still doing so at the end of the trial. However, the source books seem to like to skim over a lot of details. Is there a novel of these events that can be referenced to instead? Might give more information on the subject matter.
6. I'm not twisting canon and facts to make the wolves look weak. I'm being rather objective about this, as I don't care for the clans much. However, calling one of the stronger clans weak is a mistake. (If they were here, they'd challenge you to a trial of grievance for such a remark.) You look at only each piece as a whole, instead of the whole from each piece. It's easy to say "They lost this trial, and then lost this trial, and this trial got cut short before they could win or lose...". How did they lose that trial? 4-1 odds against them, and they almost won, barely losing. Strength. Attack corridor was assigned to them, but they still progressed faster than any other clan. They even pressed forwards while the other clans weren't ready (by lore you posted yourself). The other clans did not charge with them to "cover their flanks" but to keep wolf from "gaining more honor". The clans were united in the invasion, but not in military doctrine. If they where, then Operation Serpant/bulldog would have had to fight a united clan force. Not just Smoke Jaguar. More showing of strength. Then, they were the only clan to take their two targets, with maybe some debate on Ghost Bear on this. More show of strength. Even if they "could not have held them" like you claim, they took them. No other clan did. More strength. They lost the Refusal trial because of some underhanded Falcon Khan ambushing Ulric when it was a Circle of Equals. Then, later, were absorbed illegally, stated from the Grand Council themselves. Otherwise, there would have been a voting on the absorption, and then bidding on who would do the absorbing...
Shall I go on?
7. I was making an example. The example, which you failed to grasp, was that one can change the presentation on facts (from lore) to make an event appear different than it really was. I said Comstar ended the trial to make that point. You said Ulric with no mention of Comstar's part in it. So... point made. Again. It was a joint decision between the two. How you presented it before hand was twisted to make the wolves appear weak. I can also twist it to make the wolves look stronger than they were. "Comstar called off the trial before they could mount a counter attack against the Wolf forces. They were afraid wolf would overrun them and destroy what remained of their forces." See? I can twist it the other way as well if you wish... (That was an example. Not a quote from any canon or lore.)
8. He posted a larger picture. He didn't say things like "Ulric called off the trial", for an example. Jaroth also posted from more than one source. All I've seen from you have been "Page such and such" and then dropped. Then, I have to take your word for what you say. Then you also don't post from any other sources, like a novel. Source books have very abridged versions of events. They don't go into the details that the novels do. Jaroth posted not just from the source books, but also the novels. This paints a larger picture than the source books. He also didn't say one side of the facts...
9. I can not compete with your "canon" as you say everything I post is "not canon". I gave up trying to be exact and correct. Jaroth is being far more exact and correct, and has the canon to prove it. He has basically proven just about everything I've said so far as canon and correct (or very close to correct). Thus, I'm not even going to try and prove anything to you. You just twist it around anyway.
10. They won. It's a win. You want to make it sound like something else. Here, let me remind you. Recall that trial of Refusal against the invasion? When pointed out the odds, you mention "It's a lose. They Lost. So they are weak." Recall that? I do. So, which is it? Do we look at the details of the events and deem some loses as a sign of strength and other wins as weakness? Or are we looking at it as "A win is a win, and a lose is a lose". This is the place where you start to twist facts into your favor, ignoring the concept of why they lost in the refusal, and pointing out the "poor" victory in the Trial of Tukayyid. You can't dig into one, and dismiss the other... That is the point.
Either A. They lost the Refusal of the Invasion, showing weakness, but won the Trial of Tukayyid, showing strength.
Or B. They lost the Refusal of the Invasion, but narrowly lost when the odds where 4 to 1 odds against them, but won the Trial of Tukayyid by taking the "easiest" targets, bidding higher than the other clans, and calling the trial finished before it was finished, meaning they were really weak. (Even though the facts say that they were the only clan to get two targets, with some exception to Ghost Bear possibly.)
Which is it? Detailed view? Or generalized view? You can't just detail what you want, and generalize what you don't, to make a false picture here on Wolfs strength.
11. I gave up trying to prove any canon in this thread anymore. You'll ignore it anyway. So, no. How bout I don't? (Seen as most of it has already been posted. A lot of the good stuff by Jaroth.)
12. Wrong. But, I'm not going to bother to try and prove it. You'll ignore me anyway.
I just proved that it was at least 2 days. If you said overnight, it was wrong. And I don't recall you(but you may have) posting anything otherwise. However, it matters not to me anymore. You'll say and recall what you want to anyway.
Jaroth Corbett, on 14 March 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:
Yeah not sure how you guys turned J-A-R-O-T-H into J-A-R-R-O-D but cool, we all make mistakes.
To deal with recent points made:
Not exactly, the Jade Falcons, as with all Trials of Refusal, simply won the right to represent the Grand Council.
I cannot confirm at this time the number of Clans, but yes it is stated the Jade Falcons won the right.
I can understand that, however I do not know if any other clans even fought for that right. You can win the right still if no one else fought for it...
I would love to see some information either way on this, as I don't mind if I'm incorrect. I just can't think of many Clans that would be willing to fight all of Clan Wolf, or that could after the beating they took from the Trial of Tukayyid. Ulric set a very high standard for another clan to match...
I await your information on this matter if you have it. (I know. I'm asking a lot now. Sorry.)
Craig Steele, on 14 March 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:
(2) Really, if you did not know that the whole basis of the Tukayyid battle was each Clan had two objectives to take and hold, what were you hoping to argue. I mean, how can you argue that Clan Wolf was successful if you were not even aware of what Clan Wolf's (or any other Clan for that matter) objectives were. Of course I assumed you knew the bare minimum canon information, you were making an argument that they had won, ergo I assumed you knew what winning entailed. I can see now that was an error on my part.
Well. There was a reason we asked what the exact terms of the Trial was. With the Clans, it could have been to just take their two objectives... We asked. You ignored. Not our fault.
Also, it's a very valid question that was not answered in any previous posts till recently. All that was posted was the word "take". No hold was mentioned. This is why we wanted the whole quote, as it can sometimes make a difference (preferably posted in either a scanning, or a link to a web site we can read ourselves).
Jaroth Corbett, on 14 March 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:
(Picture removed for space.)
OK so we breached the defenses at Luk, which means we got in albeit briefly, the Com Guards sent a force to attack our supply lines forcing us to turn around & while we were dealing with that, they marched in reinforcements to support the troops we had smashed there a short time ago. By the time we had re-secured the supplies we realized we could not take Luk from the now reinforced opposition. My bad.
From what I'm reading between Falcon and Ghost Bear, Falcon got as much of a capture of their target as Ghost Bear did of their second target. This is probably why several sources say that Ghost Bear won a marginal victory, and Jade Falcon got a draw. (Different sources seem to say different things.)
Jaroth Corbett, on 14 March 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:
OK anyone arguing FOR the superiority of Clan Wolf, here is your trump card:
(Removed picture for space)
As a Loremaster my task is not to pick sides but to present the facts as they are & argue as objectively as possible. Read to your hearts content & draw your own conclusions. Again, I apologize if I have misled anyone with my earlier posts.
Thank you. I have not found you misleading. If anything, this "evidence" just continues to support what's been said here.
PS: He still refuted it...
CyclonerM, on 14 March 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:
Did anyone ask?
Directly from the Wolf Sourcebook.
P.s. the last quote is from the aftermath paragraph.
EDIT: Uh, i think i made it too small to be easily readable
(Hint: "Ctrl +" will zoom your screen in more...)
Yes, we've been asking. However, as great as source books are, I'm finding that they seem to glance over details to get an generalized overview. Are there any novels about these events? The Novels are like a blow by blow record of what happened... Might provide more details and shed some more light on the subject... (Like a tape recording of a break in, compared to a police overview of the recording.)
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