343 replies to this topic

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

Tell you what, on the off chance that you are not a Troll and genuinly want to debate the point I will repeat myself.

This is the description of the battle in total after the Wolves had taken the objectives from the Clan Wolf Source book, pg 51.

"Clan Wolf gradually broke off individual battles to regroup for the final engagement in the mountains. The fighting began amid a raging Thunderstorm. Clan Wolf moved forward slowly, feinting and thrusting to maintain their advantage. The links to their supply bases held, and Comstars few attempts to disrupt these lines were quickly smashed. Even with this advantage, what little ground was taken was won at a heavy price, Khan Garth Radick was slain commanding Beta Galaxy.

Clan Wolf inflicted heavy enough damage on the Comstar forces that the 13th Army was committed to the mountains. Before the new Comstar force could join the engagement, however, the battle for Tukayyid ended."

So these passages relate a story where Clan Wolf warriors were fighting as hard as ever after taking Brzo and protecting their lines of supply. They were taking heavy knocks but giving pretty good too. As with virtually every other battle on Tukayyid, Comstar assembled a force for a counter attack but that force did not join the battle being raged because the campaign was "ended"

Key word is join, ie, the battle was still going at the time that Ulric (and Focht) agreed to terminate the campaign.

What this tells me:

1. The final battle took place in the mountains.

2. It was a big battle.

3. A saKhan and many others died.

4. It ended before a new Comgard force can join.

What it does not tell me:

1. That BOTH targets were taken before this battle.

2. How the battle was ended.

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

@ Tesunie, so the fact that I can quote a canon source that says one thing happen, and the fact some some else can quote a canon source where a personality says it didn't happen, you don't see the difference there?

To use your example more accurately, If someone sees an explosion and someone else says "nope, no explosion there". Does the big hole in the ground tell you it did or didn't happen?

Not all explosions leave a hole in the ground.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

Tell you what, on the off chance that you are not a Troll and genuinly want to debate the point I will repeat myself.

This is the description of the battle in total after the Wolves had taken the objectives from the Clan Wolf Source book, pg 51.

"Clan Wolf gradually broke off individual battles to regroup for the final engagement in the mountains. The fighting began amid a raging Thunderstorm. Clan Wolf moved forward slowly, feinting and thrusting to maintain their advantage. The links to their supply bases held, and Comstars few attempts to disrupt these lines were quickly smashed. Even with this advantage, what little ground was taken was won at a heavy price, Khan Garth Radick was slain commanding Beta Galaxy.

Clan Wolf inflicted heavy enough damage on the Comstar forces that the 13th Army was committed to the mountains. Before the new Comstar force could join the engagement, however, the battle for Tukayyid ended."

So these passages relate a story where Clan Wolf warriors were fighting as hard as ever after taking Brzo and protecting their lines of supply. They were taking heavy knocks but giving pretty good too. As with virtually every other battle on Tukayyid, Comstar assembled a force for a counter attack but that force did not join the battle being raged because the campaign was "ended"

Key word is join, ie, the battle was still going at the time that Ulric (and Focht) agreed to terminate the campaign.

@ Tesunie, so the fact that I can quote a canon source that says one thing happen, and the fact some some else can quote a canon source where a personality says it didn't happen, you don't see the difference there?

To use your example more accurately, If someone sees an explosion and someone else says "nope, no explosion there". Does the big hole in the ground tell you it did or didn't happen?

Actually I have to concur with Craig here.



Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.51

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

No, you did not. I even went back a few pages and I still can not find where you quoted canon saying:

"To win, each Clan must capture two objectives as well as defeat all Comgards on the battlefield."

...or:

"After securing their second target, Clan Wolf still continues to fight Comstar forces around their objectives."

Actually............



Era Report 3052 Pg.19

I think I can explain what happened though. It is a "best of" contest. If you were doing a best of five for example then you would need to win three to claim victory, if guy A wins one then guy B wins the second, guy A wins the third & guy B wins the fourth, they are tied at 2-2 & the fifth round is the tie breaker ergo it has to be done. If guy A wins the first three rounds, there is no need to do the other two.

Clan Wolf was the last Clan to drop on Tukkayid & as such the last Clan to see what results would hold. From the Smoke Jaguars, Diamond Sharks, Nova Cats & Steel Vipers loss, it was clear Comstar had won, the Clan Wolf fight did not need to be completed. The reason they were given victory is by the time Tukkayid was called, the Wolves had taken both cities & were holding them. I grant that we do not know what would have happened had the fighting gone on, but the main point is there was so need. Tukkayid was not about Clan Wolf alone.

I will use my Clan as an example to illustrate the point. As the picture above states taking & holding only one city would result in a draw but later in the same era report it lists the Ghost Bears as acheiving a partial victory. Why? Well since the objective for victory was taking AND holding both cities we did get a partial victory. We took & held Spanac & we took Luk, At that time however the ComGuards hit our supply lines & since we would need a steady stream of supplies to keep holding Luk we had to secure them & thus we broke off from Luk to re-secure the lines.

The Jade Falcons did not take either of their cities ( I attribute that to ComStar trickery but that is another discussion for another time ) but because of how many ComGuards they killed, they got a draw. Logically, if they had killed off all the ComGuards assigned to them they could have just strolled into the cities afterwards & laid claim to them.

Back to the Wolves; they took & were holding BOTH Skupo AND Brzo & comfortably so. The thing with the ComGuards though is that they were fighting together & as as soon as one Clan's campaign ended, those troops that were still battle ready were shifted to other combat theaters to fight different Clans. As I said before in the time they had, Clan Wolf successfully took AND HELD their both objectives & we will never know what would have happened had the battle continued.

On a personal note here, when I got introduced to MW it was with MW3. When I got online I realized there was a rich history of lore in the franchise. I cannot speak for Sarna now but I do not trust it because of incidents in the past where I quoted it & what was quoted was incorrect or just had no reference to back it up. I use Sarna to wipe my ass. If you do not have any books to read, I would suggest

Patrick's Battletech Archive:

http://web.archive.o...ultraforce.org/

(this is actually an archive of the archive since it went inactive some time ago)

This is the first place after the Sarna debacle that I went to that had accurate info, at least on the Clan section.

There is also Warhawk PPC:

http://ppc.warhawken...ises.com/1.html

Also if you have any other questions, PM me.

EDIT: inserted B after guy

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 03 September 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 02:31 AM, said:

Initially yes. But as I said the third charge was bullshit. This was a case carfully prepared by the Crusader element of the Wolves to get Ulric removed as ilKhan but there were only two charges in the indictment. After Ulric dealt with the two, Marielle & Vlad began wrapping up. When Dalk Carns concocted this bullshit charge because of its serious nature, Ulric could not deal with it as it was. It was he who turned it over to the Grad Council, a right the ilKhan has, in order to give himself & the Wolves time. If the Crusaders had stuck to the formal charges, the Refusal War would never have happened.



Bred for War



The Grand Council never met, there was no proposal, there was no vote & no bidding for who would have the right to do the absorbing. I have shown you proof. I quoted from Grave Covenant to show how an Absorption is done. Show me one piece of canon that shows where the Grand Council met & ratified the "Absorption"? The reason why Taney says misguided & bungled is because by the time a Grand Council is convened, the matter was already dealt with. What he means by bungled is had the Jade Falcons done it legally & correctly they might have had a chance of being granted the right. Remember the Grand Council determines which Clan would best benefit from absorbing the proposed Clan. Now as I said I believe Chistu & Crichell felt that doing it legally would call their own Clan's weakness into question & they themselves might be the ones proposed to be absorbed, however the fact remains I believe what Taney means, is that since Ulric (as far as they are concerned) should have taken the judgement, instead of of turning it into a war with the Jade Falcons & the Jade Falcons won the right to represent the Grand Council in the matter, they more than likely might have been approved with minimal to no opposition.

What is the difference between a bank robber shooting a policeman & a policeman shooting a bank robber? At the end of the day, one person shot another person, however the policeman's action is legal, it is just, it is sanctioned. I am not saying it did not happen, I have never denied it. I am saying it was illegal & unClanlike. The stipulations for an Absorption are clear & the Jade Falcons did not follow them.

Vlad explains it perfectly. Chistu ambushed & murdered Ulric, anyone seeing what happened would have set the Jade Falcons back. He calls for a spontaneous absorption, which he knows he did not accomplish because all the Wolves were not killed or captured, then to prevent Phelan from returning to challenge the claim, he initiated the Ritual of Abjuration knowing that only a Wolf could challenge him & being abjured, Phelan & his forces are no longer considered Wolf or even Clan for that matter & since the Wolves that were not dead are now Jade Falcons, there was noboody to go against him.

The facts are there in plain black & white. Both Bred for War & Malicious Intent state (not from a character's perspective but one of fact for the reader to get) that the Grand Council did NOT sanction, ratify, condone & whatever other synonnyms you want to use, the "Absorption".



No it is not. It is stated as a matter of fact. No it does not it, it says what I am saying. That matter as far as the Clans are concerned is considered closed. In fact everything that happened with the "Absorption" was actually referred to by the Ice Hellion Clan as ancient history.



The Jade Falcons ****** everything up. They had a Khan killed by a warrior with no Bloodname & the other Khan who was elected ilKhan got killed in the Grand Council Hall in front of the other Khans by that same warrior. Again no other Clan was just going to sit by & let the Jade Falcons lay claim to the Kerensky Bloodright by stealing it in an unsanctioned Absorption, but because of the events that transpired, they wrote off the whole thing.



THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY POINT FOR ME. Were it just a Trial of Refusal they would not, but the Jade Falcons said it was a Trial of Absorption so yes they did. The Wolves were not defeated. Chistu & Crichell shit themselves because they knew Phelan could swing back & challenge it which is why they issued the Abjuration.



I think you got confused. A Clan Council can call for Abjuration not just the Grand Council. The Falcons claim they absorbed the Wolves, by that he means everyone, Phelan included. They then say because of their actions, Phelan & his group are Abjured. They are not Falcon, Wolf or even Clan. The Grand Council had nothing to do with it initially. AFTERWARDS, when they actually met on Strana Mechty they would have agreed to it because Phelan was working with the Kell Hounds & working with mercenaries well you know the drill.

OK, Look. I don't really agree but you certainly have enough to make me doubt my thoughts (and thanks for taking time btw) about the Absorbtion.

Heres my rationalisation. The process may have been flawed, but the warriors of Clan Wolf conceded defeat and accepted Absorbtion. In effect, the surrendered. Ergo, they lost the Refusal War. I really don't buy into a technical win and I am pretty sure Clan culture doesn't either. You either win or you don't. So whilst I can agree to your point about the Absorbtion being illegal, to me Clan Wolf still surrendered and submitted to a stronger Clan.

Whatever argument anyone wants to make, Clan Wolf was either so weak in its junior officer structure that they could not function without a Khan or take any initiative (maybe this is a reflection of Ulric's 'jobs for the boys commander process') or they were so shattered military that they were unable to take any initiative. Either way doesn't speak to any strength of Clan Wolf, they certainly rolled over and accepted whatever the Flacons served up.

Now yes Vlad comes back form the dead and ra ra ra, we are getting outside the timeline of my statement so I don't want to do anything there except to acknowledge that Vlad is pursing something far more Clan like than Ulric's stewardship.

EDIT : OK, rereading I see something I missed and I'll concede the Abjurment too.

Having said that (and heres the problem with arguing tangents), the legalities of the Absorbtion or Abjurment do not change the fact that the Wolves lost. They surrendered. Ergo back to my main point, that Clan Wolf is demonstrably weaker than other Clans (in this case Clan Jade Falcon)

Nathan K, on 13 March 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

What this tells me:

1. The final battle took place in the mountains.

2. It was a big battle.

3. A saKhan and many others died.

4. It ended before a new Comgard force can join.

What it does not tell me:

1. That BOTH targets were taken before this battle.

2. How the battle was ended.



Not all explosions leave a hole in the ground.

Yeah, ummm, kinda thinking you're just trolling now. Arguing for the sake of arguing. Thanks for your input though.

Edited by Craig Steele, 13 March 2014 - 03:11 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

Actually I have to concur with Craig here.



Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.51




Actually............



Era Report 3052 Pg.19

I think I can explain what happened though. It is a "best of" contest. If you were doing a best of five for example then you would need to win three to claim victory, if guy A wins one then guy B wins the second, guy A wins the third & guy wins the fourth, they are tied at 2-2 & the fifth round is the tie breaker ergo it has to be done. If guy A wins the first three rounds, there is no need to do the other two.

Clan Wolf was the last Clan to drop on Tukkayid & as such the last Clan to see what results would hold. From the Smoke Jaguars, Diamond Sharks, Nova Cats & Steel Vipers loss, it was clear Comstar had won, the Clan Wolf fight did not need to be completed. The reason they were given victory is by the time Tukkayid was called, the Wolves had taken both cities & were holding them. I grant that we do not know what would have happened had the fighting gone on, but the main point is there was so need. Tukkayid was not about Clan Wolf alone.

I will use my Clan as an example to illustrate the point. As the picture above states taking & holding only one city would result in a draw but later in the same era report it lists the Ghost Bears as acheiving a partial victory. Why? Well since the objective for victory was taking AND holding both cities we did get a partial victory. We took & held Spanac & we took Luk, At that time however the ComGuards hit our supply lines & since we would need a steady stream of supplies to keep holding Luk we had to secure them & thus we broke off from Luk to re-secure the lines.

The Jade Falcons did not take either of their cities ( I attribute that to ComStar trickery but that is another discussion for another time ) but because of how many ComGuards they killed, they got a draw. Logically, if they had killed off all the ComGuards assigned to them they could have just strolled into the cities afterwards & laid claim to them.

Back to the Wolves; they took & were holding BOTH Skupo AND Brzo & comfortably so. The thing with the ComGuards though is that they were fighting together & as as soon as one Clan's campaign ended, those troops that were still battle ready were shifted to other combat theaters to fight different Clans. As I said before in the time they had, Clan Wolf successfully took AND HELD their both objectives & we will never know what would have happened had the battle continued.

If there was a time limit its the first I have heard.

According to some sources Clan Jade Falcon did take Olalla but it was lost in the counter attack.

Whether it was a humanitarum thing or not, the point is that Clan Wolf was still fighting when the campaign ended, thus no firm outcome was earned one way or the other by the Clan Wolf wrriors. Ergo, this battle is not proof of any military superioirity over other Clans. The other Clans fought to the end, Clan Wolf did not.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

OK, Look. I don't really agree but you certainly have enough to make me doubt my thoughts (and thanks for taking time btw) about the Absorbtion.

Heres my rationalisation. The process may have been flawed, but the warriors of Clan Wolf conceded defeat and accepted Absorbtion. In effect, the surrendered. Ergo, they lost the Refusal War. I really don't buy into a technical win and I am pretty sure Clan culture doesn't either. You either win or you don't. So whilst I can agree to your point about the Absorbtion being illegal, to me Clan Wolf still surrendered and submitted to a stronger Clan.

Whatever argument anyone wants to make, Clan Wolf was either so weak in its junior officer structure that they could not function without a Khan or take any initiative (maybe this is a reflection of Ulric's 'jobs for the boys commander process') or they were so shattered military that they were unable to take any initiative. Either way doesn't speak to any strength of Clan Wolf, they certainly rolled over and accepted whatever the Flacons served up.

Now yes Vlad comes back form the dead and ra ra ra, we are getting outside the timeline of my statement so I don't want to do anything there except to acknowledge that Vlad is pursing something far more Clan like than Ulric's stewardship.

EDIT : OK, rereading I see something I missed and I'll concede the Abjurment too.

Having said that (and heres the problem with arguing tangents), the legalities of the Absorbtion or Abjurment do not change the fact that the Wolves lost. They surrendered. Ergo back to my main point, that Clan Wolf is demonstrably weaker than other Clans (in this case Clan Jade Falcon)

Glad you are rethinking your position. The flaw is the problem & because Clans are based on law, lore, policies & procedures, the flaw is what unhinges the whole thing. Phelan never surrendered, ergo the Wolves could never have been absorbed, Ulric was killed so the Trial of Refusal would have been lost except for the manner in which he was killed which would mean the Jade Falcons would have lost. The Falcons called for an abjuration of warriors they never had because they never absorbed them in the first place. The facts are there.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

According to some sources Clan Jade Falcon did take Olalla but it was lost in the counter attack.

Let me check it again. My brain is still on Eva Green's ****.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 March 2014 - 03:58 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

Glad you are rethinking your position. The flaw is the problem & because Clans are based on law, lore, policies & procedures, the flaw is what unhinges the whole thing. Phelan never surrendered, ergo the Wolves could never have been absorbed, Ulric was killed so the Trial of Refusal would have been lost except for the manner in which he was killed which would mean the Jade Falcons would have lost. The Falcons called for an abjurations of warriors they never had because they never absorbed them in the first place. The facts are there.

Well, I've always maintained I can be convinced, but I didn't put up what I did because I flipped a few pages and thought I'd do some trolling.

What you showed me is were the abjuration kicks in. It makes sense that Phelans wolves can be abjured AFTER the Absorbtion as they do belong to Clan Jade Falcon. Prior to that little bit of data, I was of the understanding that JF had only claimed what they had control over, the Wolves that surrendered. I have no canon (and I don't see it to hand in the novel) that JF claimed Phelans Wolves. Hence my thought process that given Clan Wolf in Exile freely admits 10 years later they are abjured, that the Grand Council HAD to have ratified it because only the Grand Council can abjure another Clan.

I'm still not sold, but I can see a weakness in my original thoughts and on that basis, will not contest the point further.

However, as I said above, this argument was kind of a tangent in the sense that The Wolves did still lose, they did surrender (for want of a better word) and the accepted Clan Jade Falcon as the victors (all bar one famously but he was not there at the time). Ergo, I still don't see the legalities of the absorbtion having an impact on the underlying statement I made, that the Wolves in 3048 - 3058 are weaker than other clans.

[Jaroth Corbett]

OK just checked. The Falcons never took Olalla.

Quote

"Something is wrong down there," Kael Pershaw announced abruptly.

"We realize that, Kael Pershaw," Aidan said.

"No. I mean something specific. I have just checked some old records of Olalla with the conformations
down there. They do not jibe."

"What are you saying? That this is not Olalla? It is at the exact coordinates provided by—"

"The coordinates are fine. But ComStar is up to something. The pre-invasion holos that I have of Olalla show a well-kept, architecturally sound village. The buildings should be pristine, and some of them with more storeys than those you see below. The city's streets are organized in a grid pattern, not the haphazard pathways you see. The marketplace areas were landscaped in green grass, with many colorful booths permanently set up. That is what I mean when I say this is not Olalla. Olalla is gone."

"How can that be?"

"I am not certain, but I suspect that before our arrival insystem, the old city was razed or somehow moved, evacuated with its citizenry. This motley collection of buildings was substituted for the original. The marketplaces were altered. Aidan Pryde, this Olalla is a false city. It is designed to lure you in. Do not, I repeat, do not commit your entire force to Olalla. Wait."

What i was referring to is before they were considered Wolf-in-Exile & just Wolf. Because they did not surrender, an absorption did not happen, legally. I also am yet to see a canon reference showing the Grand Council meeting on Strana Mechty, a proposal to absorb the Wolves brought forward then approved, a vote taken that passed unanimously & a Clan chosen to do the absorbing. With this lack of evidence, I rest my case.

Oh & did I mention Eva Green's ****?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 March 2014 - 04:14 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

OK just checked. The Falcons never took Olalla.




What i was referring to is before they were considered Wolf-in-Exile & just Wolf. Because they did not surrender, an absorption did not happen, legally. I also am yet to see a canon reference showing the Grand Council meeting on Strana Mechty, a proposal to absorb the Wolves brought forward then approved & a Clan chosen to do the absorbing. With this lack of evidence, I rest my case.

Oh & did I mention Eva Green's ****?

LOL, yeah I have already conceded, rest away.

On the Falcons, The Clan Jade Falcon Source book mentions Olalla several times in order (pg 31 & 32)

"....led their troops into the Outskirts of Ollala before realizing the city did not match intelligence information gathered before the bidding.... Suspecting a trap...... 77th Division (Comguard) charged from concealed positions....."

And then

"The combined Clan force moved relentlessly through the city of Olalla, driving the Com Guards before them. Just as it seemed that the Falcons controlled the city, the entire uncommitted reserves of the Com Guard 3rd and 11th Armies, Six division strong, arrived."

And then

"...a second Dropship assault, bringing the forces of the 1st Comguard Army led by Precentor Katherine Luarc began on Olalla."

So this reads as found fake city, narrowly avoided a trap. Found the real city, cleared most of it before being counter attacked. Defeated that attack and took city, second counter attack. But it is not specifically saying Olalla was taken..

The language is what leads me this way. Why launch a second counter attack if the first one was succeful? ergo, the first counter attack failed. If the first counter attack failed and the Falcons had all but cleared the city, ergo they cleared the city.

The analysis is supported by the Draw criteria (ie, take one city) so it kind of reads right from that angle. But it does not say unequivocably the city was taken in this source.

Clan Wolf source book makes no mention of Olalla but still awards the draw.

On the basis of your excerpt though, it not unreasonable to assume the "trap" city wa still the same city (just reconditioned) and that was the "city' they took and was the subject of counter attacks. So I guess if Comstar identified that grid location as the City, but they dressed it up with new building, it doesn't change that it is still the city?

Edited by Craig Steele, 13 March 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I thank you counselor for the valiant attempt during this case. I tip my hat to you sir.

Regarding the Falcons, the Falcon Guard novel states they did not go in. When Alpha Heavy got ambushed, they were pushed back.

Quote

Jula Huddock had sensed anomalies even before Aidan and the others began to discuss them. The buildings looked thrown-together and never lived in. There were traces of old foundations peeking out from the fake constructions. When viewed up close, everything about Olalla seemed fraudulent, jerrybuilt.

Later, Aidan would realize that Alpha Heavy's early presence may have saved the rest of the Cluster. The ComStar forces had certainly intended to ambush all of them. They would have waited until the Guards were comfortably in Olalla or close enough to it, and then sprung their trap. But in monitoring communications between the Jade Falcon warriors, the ComStar commander saw that the opportunity for an ambush had passed, so he ordered an all-out attack instead.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 March 2014 - 04:49 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

I thank you counselor for the valiant attempt during this case.I tip my hat to you sir.

Regarding the Falcons, Falcon Guarsd states they did not go in. When Alpha Heavy got ambushed, they were pushed back.

Thats correct in one sense, the Guard did not, they avoided the trap, then flanked the position.

The forces that did go in (second reference) were 89th and 94th Striker Cluster and the 1st Velites.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Where do you see that? From what I am reading in Falcon Guard, after Alpha Heavy gets wiped out all the ComGuards at "Olalla" jump out & push the Falcon Guards back for a bit. The Falcon Guards hold their own then start pushing back to Olalla before the reinforcements from Humptulips showed up. The other Clusters got bogged down at Robyn's Crossing near the Prezno River, then the retreat ( I mean the tactical advance to the rear ) is called.

Spoiler

Quote

Aidan was surprised at how fragile these ComStar BattleMechs seemed. Hits that would have done no more than stall a Clan OmniMech were ruinous to them. Although outnumbered, the Falcon Guards and the 'Mechs from Marthe's Cluster were more than holding their own. In mere moments they had stopped the ComStar advance, held them in a toe-to-toe for a short while, then driven them back toward Olalla. Night had come, and victory would soon be theirs.

The battle was fierce, to be sure, but for every Clan 'Mech damaged or lost, the Falcons had knocked down, destroyed, or blown up at least three ComStar 'Mechs. At Aidan's order, the Jade Falcons began to move methodically toward Olalla.

When Aidan nearly cut a Crab in half, Kael Pershaw's voice again intruded. "A fine effort, Aidan Pryde. A fine effort. Again you prove your worth and the restoration of the Falcon Guards."

"We have them, Kael Pershaw. They are on the run."

"That is true. But, unfortunately, you have not won."

"Why not?"

"Look to the skies beyond Olalla."

Aidan saw nothing at first, then a dot became a ball and the ball became a DropShip. It was not the only DropShip headed toward Olalla. There were six. They were like unwelcome insects, announcing their arrival before delivering their poison.

"Another unit?" Aidan asked.

"Reinforcements from the Humptulips garrison. With no one to fight there, ComStar has sent some of those warriors here."

"All right. We will take care of them too, while Jade Falcon command sends a Cluster to claim Humptulips without a fight. Both objectives will be gained."

"If that were only possible ..."

Aidan was as irritated as he was puzzled. Pershaw always had some bit of information he was deliberately holding back. He recalled Kael Pershaw's penchant for unusual punishment when Pershaw was the Glory Station Commander and Aidan just one of his Star Commanders.

"Tell me all, Kael Pershaw. All. Now."

"We have no Clusters to send to Humptulips. We cannot even send in a single Elemental to plant a banner and claim it. All are engaged in the new battle for Robyn's Crossing."

"The new battle?"

"It came swift and fierce, something like the Prezno River itself. What you see coming at you is about a third of the Humptulips warriors. The rest swept down onto Robyn's Crossing not long after the bridge was finished and the supply depot set up. The Jade Falcon warriors have fought well, but casualties are high on both sides. But the ComStar 'Mechs used infernos, and the flaming gel of those missiles turned the supply depot into a raging inferno in less than a minute. The ammo and missile explosions are lighting up the skies behind you. If you had looked, you would have seen it. Had you not been under attack yourself, you would have heard it, felt it."

Aidan was suddenly aware that the night skies were considerably lighter than when the battle had begun. Turning to look back, he saw a yellow aura arcing over the flatland.Turning his attention forward again, he said, "Then we must take Olalla for the Jade Falcons. If one objective is gained, then—"

"Have you checked the ammunition status for your 'Mechs? And how many tons of armor and repair parts are necessary to bring your unit up to full strength? With the supply depot gone, how will you rearm, reload, and repair your 'Mechs? And with the fight so intense at Robyn's Crossing, you cannot hope for reinforcements."

"We will do the job ourselves."

"No. You cannot. The Humptulips warriors are arriving fresh, fully armed, fully supplied. No matter how great your skill, they will wear you down. I suspect the maneuver was calculated, part of ComStar strategy. Once they saw we would concentrate on Olalla, they must have plotted to make us use up our firepower there before they brought in reinforcements."

"Your words are too full of caution, Kael Pershaw. What has happened to the Clans?"

"We are being defeated on Tukayyid, that is what has happened. Supplies are insufficient and casualties are mounting. Other Clans did not even get this close, Aidan Pryde. Only Clan Wolf seems to stand between the Clans and total defeat."

"Then we will fight these ComStar forces to the death. We will at least die honorably."

"You will not even do that. The Falcon Guards are needed back at the bridge. Our warriors are pinned down. We are to retreat to the DropShips, and I must ask—no, order—the Falcon Guards to provide coverfor the withdrawal."

"But Olalla—we have come so far and have almost captured the objective."

"Yes, almost. I have the best computer setup possible here in the Specter, and have run all information through it from every angle that I know. And, as you are aware, my ability as a strategist is the only reason I am still active in a Jade Falcon uniform. I see no way for the Falcon Guards to take and hold Olalla, Aidan Pryde. You must retreat."

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 04 February 2015 - 05:05 AM.

[Gyrok]

Craig, I would also like to point out, as you well know whether you believe it or not, Ulric Kerensky's last mandate was a sealed order to create a new bloodname of Kell for Phelan Ward, so the Clan Wolf would live on in the Inner Sphere as well. When the abjuration ritual was done, the exiled wolves were all abjured from known blood names and bloodlines, however, being as they could not abjure the blood name of Kell, the abjuration was null and void on Phelan Ward's new blood name. This means that he is, in fact,a canonically valid Khan.

Edited by Gyrok, 13 March 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

At this point, we are more or less only feeding a troll.

Let him starve people.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I would not call him a troll. I could see where he was coming from but he just had his facts a bit wrong. He certainly made me do some digging to check stuff out instead of flaming or trying to derail the whole thing. Give him a break.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

I would not call him a troll.

I wouldn't have either.... for the first 9 pages of saying the same thing over and over.

I could very easily see where his arguments were coming from as well - but stopped even trying to defend his arguments beyond "I found it on a random PDF off the interwebz!" around page 3 or 4.

At that point he wrote himself off as someone, less interested in proving his point, than bashing everyone else's.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 13 March 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

Actually I have to concur with Craig here.



Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.51




Actually............



Era Report 3052 Pg.19

I think I can explain what happened though. It is a "best of" contest. If you were doing a best of five for example then you would need to win three to claim victory, if guy A wins one then guy B wins the second, guy A wins the third & guy wins the fourth, they are tied at 2-2 & the fifth round is the tie breaker ergo it has to be done. If guy A wins the first three rounds, there is no need to do the other two.

Clan Wolf was the last Clan to drop on Tukkayid & as such the last Clan to see what results would hold. From the Smoke Jaguars, Diamond Sharks, Nova Cats & Steel Vipers loss, it was clear Comstar had won, the Clan Wolf fight did not need to be completed. The reason they were given victory is by the time Tukkayid was called, the Wolves had taken both cities & were holding them. I grant that we do not know what would have happened had the fighting gone on, but the main point is there was so need. Tukkayid was not about Clan Wolf alone.

I will use my Clan as an example to illustrate the point. As the picture above states taking & holding only one city would result in a draw but later in the same era report it lists the Ghost Bears as acheiving a partial victory. Why? Well since the objective for victory was taking AND holding both cities we did get a partial victory. We took & held Spanac & we took Luk, At that time however the ComGuards hit our supply lines & since we would need a steady stream of supplies to keep holding Luk we had to secure them & thus we broke off from Luk to re-secure the lines.

The Jade Falcons did not take either of their cities ( I attribute that to ComStar trickery but that is another discussion for another time ) but because of how many ComGuards they killed, they got a draw. Logically, if they had killed off all the ComGuards assigned to them they could have just strolled into the cities afterwards & laid claim to them.

Back to the Wolves; they took & were holding BOTH Skupo AND Brzo & comfortably so. The thing with the ComGuards though is that they were fighting together & as as soon as one Clan's campaign ended, those troops that were still battle ready were shifted to other combat theaters to fight different Clans. As I said before in the time they had, Clan Wolf successfully took AND HELD their both objectives & we will never know what would have happened had the battle continued.

On a personal not here, when I got introduced to MW it was with MW3. When I got online I realized there was a rich history of lore in the franchise. I cannot speak for Sarna now but I do not trust it because of incidents in the past where I quoted it & what was quoted was incorrect or just had no reference to back it up. I use Sarna to wipe my ass. If you do not have any books to read, I would suggest

Patrick's Battletech Archive:

http://web.archive.o...ultraforce.org/

(this is actually an archive of the archive since it went inactive some time ago)

This is the first place after the Sarna debacle that I went to that had accurate info, at least on the Clan section.

There is also Warhawk PPC:

http://ppc.warhawken...ises.com/1.html

Also if you have any other questions, PM me.

Thank you, Jaroth Corbett, for bringing forth details I have been asking Craig for for so long. I was wrong and the Clans DID need to fend off counter-attacks even after taking both Cities.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

Yeah, ummm, kinda thinking you're just trolling now. Arguing for the sake of arguing. Thanks for your input though.

I am a troll for asking for details you say you have but refuse to show me? Really?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Nathan K, on 13 March 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

I am a troll for asking for details you say you have but refuse to show me? Really?

Of course - you disagree with him.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Where do you see that? From what I am reading in Falcon Guard, after Alpha Heavy gets wiped out all the ComGuards at "Olalla" jump out & push the Falcon Guards back for a bit. The Falcon Guards hold their own then start pushing back to Olalla before the reinforcements from Humptulips showed up. The other Clusters got bogged down at Robyn's Crossing near the Prezno River, then the retreat ( I mean the tactical advance to the rear ) is called.

Clan Jade Falcon Source Book pg 31, Mar Helmers debrief / report on the battle of Tukayyid.

This source also throws doubt on another fallacy long held that the Crusaders did not have enough ammunition when it describes how only a lucky hit on a forward supply dump by a Comstar fighter reduced their ammunition below what was needed. The only other Clan that is described as having forward supply caches is Clan Wolf so this infers that Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf were supplied equally, noting the Wolf source demonstrates Clan Wolf was running out of ammo without incuring any similar major damage to their logistic chain.

But I digress.

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 13 March 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Thank you, Jaroth Corbett, for bringing forth details I have been asking Craig for for so long. I was wrong and the Clans DID need to fend off counter-attacks even after taking both Cities.

I am a troll for asking for details you say you have but refuse to show me? Really?

I think you're a troll because your asking me for answers that are already there and irrelvant to the point.

If you think they didn't hold both cities then its not up to me to prove they didn't. I think they did and said so. So you stump your canon that says they didn't.

If you think Clan Wolf were not still fighting when the battle ended, you come up with your canon. I'm not making your argument for you.

But my sources show Clan WOlf warriors did not finish their battle as every other Clan did and they avoided a counter attacked (that they may or may not have defeated) because Ulric and Comstar called the Campaign for Tulkayyid over. Ergo, Clan Wolfs "awarded vicotry' at Tukayyid is not proof of CLan WOlf being any more superior than any other Clan as they did not complete their battle.

If you disagree, happy to hear what you have to say but I have already put up the canon twice for you to read so now you make your point.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 13 March 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Craig, I would also like to point out, as you well know whether you believe it or not, Ulric Kerensky's last mandate was a sealed order to create a new bloodname of Kell for Phelan Ward, so the Clan Wolf would live on in the Inner Sphere as well. When the abjuration ritual was done, the exiled wolves were all abjured from known blood names and bloodlines, however, being as they could not abjure the blood name of Kell, the abjuration was null and void on Phelan Ward's new blood name. This means that he is, in fact,a canonically valid Khan.

This is another tangent to the point but you are correct, IF Clan Jade Falcon laid claim to Phelans Wolves. That bit is still up in the air for me but I am going back through Jarrod's stuff.

If Jade Falcon claimed Phelns Wolves then Jarrod's line of deduction is not only plausible, its more than likely. The JF Khans of the day are certainly portrayed as politicers.

If Clan Jade Flacon did not claim Phelans Wolves than the only way they can consider themselves abjured 10 years later is if the Grand Council ordered it so. If that was the case then it doesn't matter what Ulric did before the event, Phelans Wolves are history from a Clan persepctive, a footnote. He can be a Khan but its not of a Clan (does that read right?). I doubt he even would be because the Grand Council strips all bloodnames (regardless of who awarded them) so that event happening after would still trump Ulric's move.

Either way, it's still moving into outside the timeline of my statements and does nothing to establish Clan Wolf's superiority as a military touman. The did still lose and they did still run away, so it does nothing to refute for the core examples / presentation I made.

BUt, it is something new I have learned about the Canon so I am happy about that.