343 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Shar Wolf, on 13 March 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

I wouldn't have either.... for the first 9 pages of saying the same thing over and over.

I could very easily see where his arguments were coming from as well - but stopped even trying to defend his arguments beyond "I found it on a random PDF off the interwebz!" around page 3 or 4.

At that point he wrote himself off as someone, less interested in proving his point, than bashing everyone else's.

This "random bit of the internet, a PDF" I refute, even though you cannot see this post cause you put your fingers and your ears and keep saying na na na na, you're ignored.

That was your fabrication.

Every canon source I have quoted is fully detailed.

Are you sure your not a troll?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Craig"I Wish I was Navi" Steele said:

"HAY LISTEN"

Reported.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 13 March 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[Gyrok]

As was pointed out earlier, they were holding their cities "comfortably" which is above and beyond what the other clans achieved. As previously stated, CJF did not even completely take their first objective entirely.

CGB held one city.

Failing to take objective entirely and being run out before holding it = "draw" (CJF)

Taking first objective and trying to hold second objective and getting run back to first objective = marginal victory (CGB)

Taking and holding both objectives comfortably = victory (CW)

You are reading it right out of canon and you do not surmise the differences? Really?

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 13 March 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

As was pointed out earlier, they were holding their cities "comfortably" which is above and beyond what the other clans achieved. As previously stated, CJF did not even completely take their first objective entirely.

CGB held one city.

Failing to take objective entirely and being run out before holding it = "draw" (CJF)

Taking first objective and trying to hold second objective and getting run back to first objective = marginal victory (CGB)

Taking and holding both objectives comfortably = victory (CW)

You are reading it right out of canon and you do not surmise the differences? Really?

Well firstly, I never made the claim they DID take the city. It's my canon sources that your reading and I quite CLEARLY state that it does not unequovicably say the city was taken. It reads as such (the language is suggestive) and the fact the draw was awarded (which is only done for taking a city) tends to suggest that it was taken.

The canon of Tukayyid says that both Jade Falcon and Ghost Bear were a DRAW. There was only ONE victory AWARDED and it was Clan Wolf.

So please, don't try and represent my point for me, rather read what my point is and then I invite you to discuss.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

If you think they didn't hold both cities then its not up to me to prove they didn't. I think they did and said so. So you stump your canon that says they didn't.

Where the hell does all THIS come from? All my arguments were that they DID take their target cities.

Nathan K, on 10 March 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

I will admit the Wolf lost the Trial of Refusal if you admit Jade Falcon lost in the Trial of Tukayyid.

Then your point has nothing to do with this thread.

Wow you have one twisted outlook on this battle.

Natasha was not forced to to not bid, she just know what was coming.

It is not Ulric's fault the other Khans were arrogant and bid so low.

Clan Wolf won because they took both objectives (after facing double the numbers the other Clans have faced), not because they just did not leave. (And that was not on day two!)

The Wolfs landed on May 5. Day two, for them, was on May 7. The trial ended May 21.

How could he betray a trust that was never given to him?

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

Because Wolf took the second target by then. Where does it tell me otherwise? Where does it say "Clan Wolf did not take their second target city"?

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Better yet, YOU show ME where it says in canon that the Clans had to do more than to take the two target Cities to win. Show ME where it says that Clan Wolf was still fighting with the Comgards after taking their second target.

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

No, you did not. I even went back a few pages and I still can not find where you quoted canon saying:

"To win, each Clan must capture two objectives as well as defeat all Comgards on the battlefield."

...or:

"After securing their second target, Clan Wolf still continues to fight Comstar forces around their objectives."

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 13 March 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

Where the hell does all THIS come from? All my arguments were that they DID take their target cities.

Exactly, thats why I think you're a trolling now and arguing for the sake of arguing.

I quite clearly stated that Clan Wolf had taken both objectives. I quite clearly stated that the campaign for Tukayyid had ended. Yet you still seem to want to argue the points we are in agreeance in.

I don't understand why you want to argue over what we agree on, ergo I come to the conclusion you are arguing for the sake of arguing, ergo a troll.

The point which I thought we were debating initially was whether Clan Wolf warriors actually finished their part of the trial (by defeating the Comstar forces and thus "holding" the cities). I quoted canon for the second time (admitably the second time I quoted the entire passage including parts irrelevant such as "in a thunderstorm") which quite clearly demonstrates that Clan Wolf warriors were still fighting (heavily) and that the reserves Comstar assembled for a counter attack did not join the ongoing battle.

Jarrod puts up the same passage in a printed format that I have typed out word for word (twice) and you say to him "thanks for the info, thats what I was looking for" which leads me to conclude you did not even bother to read the stuff you asked me to put up and yet you keep asking for more.

Maybe my conclusion is wrong, but if you want me to produce canon on what we already agree on what other conclusions are there?

The reason this conversation occurred is that some people point to Clan Wolf being the only Clan that 'won' at Tukayyid as proof of military superioirty but I say the canon is very clear.

Yes, they took the two easiest objectives in the last moments of the campaign (once the Comguard had been throughly beat up by 6 other Clans) and they were holding those two cities when Comstar assembled forces for a counter attack (which was their pattern for virtually every other Clan battle). Before that Comguard counter attack could join the battle being fought, the Campaign for Tukayyid was declared over. Whether it was for humantarium reasons or because of a time limit or because of best of 7 is irrelevant to the point, unlike every other Clan, Clan Wolf did not defeat (or lose to) their oppostion, they were still engaged and the situation in doubt (being contested?) when the campaign was called off.

Ergo, the battle for Tukayyid is not proof of Clan Wolfs superiority vs other Clans because we will never know what would have befallen them (good or bad) had they fought the Comguard counter attack that virtually every other Clan did.

They may well have got slaughtered to a man (canon says they were hurting badly, heavy casualities, extending and low on ammo / supplies, none of which are good things). It may well have been a stunning victory against overwhelming odds.

We will never know.

[Gyrok]

Ok, this is where I stand:

Canon says Clan Wolf was awarded a victory, therefore they won.

Canon says CJF was NOT awarded a victory, but a draw.

Jaroth's quoted source says the wolves easily smashed all attempts to sever their supply lines, and they were comfortably holding both cities.

Clan Wolf may have had the easiest targets, but they were facing ALL of the remaining ComStar Forces. The first clans had the advantage of having forces spared back to allot for other clans, as CJF was toward the end, they had to deal with far more forces than the earliest battles on Tukayyid. Now, Clan Wolf had to deal with the entire remaining battle ready ComStar forces available.

That said, they took 2 objectives and were holding them, CGB who was closest to achieving this had their supply lines severed before the counter attack and thus would have had to leave the objective city to solve their issues anyway, before the counter attack. I honestly think had they been able to keep supply lines open, they likely would have been awarded a victory as well.

So, this is my proposition:

If you agree Clan Wolf won on Tukayyid, without discrediting the fact that they did, and that this at minimum proves they were at equal or militarily superior to the other clans, and that the debacle Ulric had to deal with was BS by all accounts with the Falcons acting unclan-like; then I will agree that the information we have does not give you or I enough information to completely discredit the other because there are gaping holes in the available data.

If not, at least concede that your viewpoint has a heavy crusader slant (taking bits and pieces of canon and omitting others is not the same thing as constructing a valid argument), as most of the literature you cite does not paint either Ulric, or the Wolves in the same light you do...by a long shot...

Edited by Gyrok, 13 March 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 13 March 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Ok, this is where I stand:

Canon says Clan Wolf was awarded a victory, therefore they won.

Canon says CJF was NOT awarded a victory, but a draw.

Jaroth's quoted source says the wolves easily smashed all attempts to sever their supply lines (1), and they were comfortably holding both cities.

Clan Wolf may have had the easiest targets, but they were facing ALL of the remaining ComStar Forces (2). The first clans had the advantage of having forces spared back to allot for other clans, as CJF was toward the end, they had to deal with far more forces than the earliest battles on Tukayyid. Now, Clan Wolf had to deal with the entire remaining battle ready ComStar forces available.

That said, they took 2 objectives and were holding them, CGB who was closest to achieving this had their supply lines severed before the counter attack and thus would have had to leave the objective city to solve their issues anyway, before the counter attack. I honestly think had they been able to keep supply lines open, they likely would have been awarded a victory as well. (3)

So, this is my proposition:

If you agree Clan Wolf won on Tukayyid (4) , without discrediting the fact that they did, and that this at minimum proves they were at equal or militarily superior to the other clans (5), and that the debacle Ulric had to deal with was BS by all accounts with the Falcons acting unclan-like; then I will agree that the information we have does not give you or I enough information to completely discredit the other because there are gaping holes in the available data.

If not, at least concede that your viewpoint has a heavy crusader slant (taking bits and pieces of canon and omitting others is not the same thing as constructing a valid argument (6)), as most of the literature you cite does not paint either Ulric, or the Wolves in the same light you do (7)...by a long shot...

(1) I suspect that was my post, but sure.

(2) No, they were not. They faced 3 Armies, the unengaged 10th initially, the 9th Army arrived later that day. The 11th (burnt out after battles with JF) arrived late on the second day and the counter attack by the 13th army never occurred.

Your view of how the battle played out is not consistent with canon which was that Comstar assigned armies to each Clan battle and had a reserve force for counter attacks. Comstars entire tactics revolved around the defending army wearing down supplies of the Clans and then coutner attacking.

(3) Well as much as you might think that, Canon disagrees with you. Clan Ghost Bear did not take both objectives for a start, they had to choose between striking for the second objective and protecting their supply lines. After protecting their supply lines the did not have enough forces to take the second objective. There are other sources which indicate Clan Ghost bear voluntarily retired from the field at this time which if correct, would be why their outcome was adjudged the same as Clan Jade Falcons. They only difference between the two outcomes being that Clan Jade Falcon was fighting at the dropships. There are also sources that cite Sun Tzu as the defeater of the Clans as he was the Star Lord commanding the forces that wiped out Clan Smoke Jaguar.

(4) I do

(5) ummm, you want me to reverse my opinion. I'm not 'discrediting' I'm showing that if you look dispassionatly at what canon actually describes, the long held and cherished belief that Clan WOlf is superior is flawed. That canon does not support it. I'm not steeping down from that unless you can show me in canon where it the case. I am happy to debate your argument if you have one.

(6) I take the bits and pieces of canon that support my argument and then invite people to submit canon that supports their argument. It's not my job to provide the information for your argument, I have either already reviewed it and dismissed it or I don;t know about it. If you want to make an argument, I'm all ears and at least one person here has been able to show me soemthing new and I have accordingly conceded that point.

(7) Well again, if you want to make an argument you knock yourself out. I think that 'most' of litertaure you refer to is from a Clan Wolf perspective, and just like some Clan GB sources claim their Tukayyid outcome was a narrow victory (although Ulric and Focht never defined a narrow vicotry outcome, just Win, loss, draw) sources that have an interest stake in the point need to be reviewed objectivily.

That by the way is my whole point. That many people assume Clan Wolf was a military powerhouse because "he said, she said" etc. What I present is that by looking closely at what actually did happen in canon, Clan Wolf is not a miliatry powerhouse, indeed it is weaker than other Clans.

I point to (between 3048 and 3058)

They lost other clans in major interclan trials

They did not earn a place in the IS invasion

They fought against the weakest IS army (largely) and even then could only keep up pace with other Clans

On Tukayyid, they did even finish their battle, the warriors were denied earning a glorious victory (or shattering defeat)

Their leadership was unclanlike and weakened Clan Wolf

And eventually, their entire touman either fled the field or surrendered to another Clan.

Thats what canon actually says. If that challenges your long held beliefs, thats the point I am making. If you want to show me where they are a military powerhouse or 'top dog', I'm all ears.

Edited by Craig Steele, 13 March 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 10:17 PM, said:

(1) Becasue it didn't...

(2) What I suggest you do is get yourself a canon resource and familiarise yourself with the difference between abjured and absorbed. Tell you what, I'll be helpful with some hints like you were on the explosion thing.
.

(3) Then make your statements accordingly.

(4) But you (seemingly) have no basis for this claim bar your non canon world that you prefer. Nothing wrong with that and hey, you might even be right. But if you're going to represent that as the canon world, then people should be able to ask you to support why you think that is so with canon examples.

I on the other hand can show multiple examples where Clan Wolf was measurably weaker than other Clans with canon sources.

Already answered well by someone else. (I like it when that happens.)

As this is a late response to defend myself, I suggest it properly be ignored, as other people have already, basically, responded to it for me. With canon sources too. However, you can still read it in the spoiler if you wished...

Spoiler

However, I'll still respond.
1. As someone else pointed out, it did. As Comstar and Wolf ended the trial, for whatever reason. This meant that (as someone referenced) the Wolves held their two objectives at the end of the trial. Also, Clan Wolf was the only clan to actually capture their two targets and hold them for any length of time, with a small concession to Ghost Bear. Difference was, Ghost Bear quickly lost their second target, and it seemed like they didn't even hold it for a counterattack.

Wolf still showed better prowess and skill on the battlefield than the other clans. Does not matter if they got the easiest targets. They had the toughest opponents (the elites) and also had to fight even more opponents than the other clans, as they were last on the planet.

2. I know the difference. It wasn't the statements or actions that I argue, but the timing. As proved by someone else.

3. I asked for those references. I didn't see them (besides one link to a single page that I can recall). However, you may have posted them. Someone else posted the links to more "canon" sites, as I had asked from before.
http://web.archive.o...ultraforce.org/
http://ppc.warhawken...ises.com/1.html
But alas, it's too late now...

4. Funny, I was asking you to support yourself with canon, and instead kept getting half placed information. You kept tailoring what you posted to better match what your side of the tale was. However, as someone else already pointed this out with their own canon sources, there really is no farther reason to poke this subject. I suggest we just drop it together...

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

On a personal not here, when I got introduced to MW it was with MW3. When I got online I realized there was a rich history of lore in the franchise. I cannot speak for Sarna now but I do not trust it because of incidents in the past where I quoted it & what was quoted was incorrect or just had no reference to back it up. I use Sarna to wipe my ass. If you do not have any books to read, I would suggest

Patrick's Battletech Archive:

http://web.archive.o...ultraforce.org/

(this is actually an archive of the archive since it went inactive some time ago)

This is the first place after the Sarna debacle that I went to that had accurate info, at least on the Clan section.

There is also Warhawk PPC:

http://ppc.warhawken...ises.com/1.html

Also if you have any other questions, PM me.

Have you checked it out recently? I think people have been updating it more reliably lately, as it's been matching what my understanding of lore has been. But, I shall admit I am not as lore buff as I wished.

And thanks for those sites. Only been asking for them for a while now from Craig... but I think I missed them if he did post them...

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I think you're a troll because your asking me for answers that are already there and irrelvant to the point.

If you think they didn't hold both cities then its not up to me to prove they didn't. I think they did and said so. So you stump your canon that says they didn't.

If you think Clan Wolf were not still fighting when the battle ended, you come up with your canon. I'm not making your argument for you.

But my sources show Clan WOlf warriors did not finish their battle as every other Clan did and they avoided a counter attacked (that they may or may not have defeated) because Ulric and Comstar called the Campaign for Tulkayyid over. Ergo, Clan Wolfs "awarded vicotry' at Tukayyid is not proof of CLan WOlf being any more superior than any other Clan as they did not complete their battle.

If you disagree, happy to hear what you have to say but I have already put up the canon twice for you to read so now you make your point.

I think you misunderstand what a troll is. A troll creates posts to specifically create an emotional response from others.

Honestly, I have not seen Nathien K post any claim that Wolf did not capture both targets.... I've been seeing him post otherwise to that statement.

Ulric and Comstar each felt that the fight did not need to go on, as the Clans had already lost. It mattered not if Wolf could hold their objectives (which it seems like they could have from someone else's canon post), as the Clans as a whole did not capture the required number of targets. As to if they could or could not have held the cities can be a debate for centuries, as there is no way to know. It appears to me that they probably could have held it, considering how they approached the targets.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

I quite clearly stated that Clan Wolf had taken both objectives. I quite clearly stated that the campaign for Tukayyid had ended. Yet you still seem to want to argue the points we are in agreeance in.



Jarrod puts up the same passage in a printed format that I have typed out word for word (twice) and you say to him "thanks for the info, thats what I was looking for" which leads me to conclude you did not even bother to read the stuff you asked me to put up and yet you keep asking for more.



The reason this conversation occurred is that some people point to Clan Wolf being the only Clan that 'won' at Tukayyid as proof of military superioirty but I say the canon is very clear.



Ergo, the battle for Tukayyid is not proof of Clan Wolfs superiority vs other Clans because we will never know what would have befallen them (good or bad) had they fought the Comguard counter attack that virtually every other Clan did.

They may well have got slaughtered to a man (canon says they were hurting badly, heavy casualities, extending and low on ammo / supplies, none of which are good things). It may well have been a stunning victory against overwhelming odds.

You said that they got the two objectives, but the trial ended before it could be determined if they could hold it. You words stated that it was intentionally cut off short by Ulric (originally with no mention of Comstar), making it seem (because you still didn't post the whole story) that Ulric cut the trial short to make sure the wolves won. I do not feel that was the case at all, as there is more you had not been posted. Someone else posted that information for you.


Jarrod places the whole passage. He didn't pick and choose the sections that make wolf seem weaker than they really are. He also didn't focus his attention and facts on things that made wolf appear weak, unlike what I saw you doing. He posted facts that made them look weak and strong. He posted the whole story, or more of the story, than you did. There is a difference. You seem to selectively cherry pick your facts, he just posted the whole thing and let us come to our own conclusion.


That actually is indicative of their strength. How about another point in fact, the only ones I recall wanting to take place into the Trial of Refusal against Ulric was Jade Falcon. From what I recall (I'm hoping someone can help back me up here with more definitive proof), no one else wanted to take Wolf up on that challenge. Now, I may be wrong here, but I'd love it if someone could post some canon saying on way or another about these events. (AKA: If I am right like I think I am, then Wolf was strong enough that no one else wanted to mess with their whole clan.)


No other clan, besides Ghost Bear, even got that far. Not even Jade Falcon. So, they still got farther than any other clan did on their objectives. Even if they did get pushed off later (which from what I read from Jarrod's postings seemed unlikely to have happened), the only clan that could even claim to have matched them was Ghost Bear. This is indicative of their strength, at least for that trial. Also, do recall the bit that they were facing the more elite units that Comstar held in reserves for the Wolf piece of the trial... (was posted here earlier from canon.)

PS: Can you once again (as I didn't catch it before) quote the canon that says the wolves where "hurting badly, heavy causalities, extending and low on ammo / supplies"? I do not recall them that low on supplies, and didn't they suffer the fewest casualties of all the clans still? With two objectives taken? Also, wasn't it mentioned that Wolf brought it energy heavy configurations to help with ammo supplies? I'd really like to see this piece of canon to prove the point one way or another... (Jarrod's Canon he posted seems to counter this statement...)

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

And eventually, their entire touman either fled the field or surrendered to another Clan.

Thats what canon actually says. If that challenges your long held beliefs, thats the point I am making. If you want to show me where they are a military powerhouse or 'top dog', I'm all ears.

From what I read, incorrect. The surviving Wolves, being leaderless, was convinced that they were being absorbed into CJF as a merged trial of Absorption/Refusal. They were convinced by a CJF Khan that, as a clan, they would have a better chance of standing together as one clan, preventing the preditations of the other clans onto them.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, most clansmen was not aware of the rules of larger council dealings. Thus, without a Khan who is expected to know these rules (or someone who observed/trained with a Khan), no one knew any better than to follow Falcon's political maneuverings. This continued to lead into farther problems with the Abjuration. It wasn't until Vlad was found, who knew better as he was a higher ranked officer aware of the high Clan laws, that the deception was discovered. The trial was also unfairly ruled a win for Falcon upon Ulric's death, as it was spun to be something other than the ambush it ended up being.

Though no official trial between the two Khans (Ulric and his opponent) was officially initiated, it was highly suggested between the two and their dialogue. This underhanded move would have lost Falcon the trial. However, upon Ulric's death, the whole situation was a non-issue, as the person being charged and cleared was dead. This would only be useful of clearing Ulric's name in history, which, for the clans, was not an issue that bothered them. So, they let history be history, and leave it at that.

This is all gleaned from previous canon references already posted within this thread...

[Jaroth Corbett]

Gyrok, on 13 March 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

As was pointed out earlier, they were holding their cities "comfortably" which is above and beyond what the other clans achieved. As previously stated, CJF did not even completely take their first objective entirely.

CGB held one city.

Failing to take objective entirely and being run out before holding it = "draw" (CJF)

Taking first objective and trying to hold second objective and getting run back to first objective = marginal victory (CGB)<

Taking and holding both objectives comfortably = victory (CW)

You are reading it right out of canon and you do not surmise the differences? Really?

I need to correct you there a bit.

We did not get run back to the first objective. We took Luk but because of the attacks on our supply lines we CHOSE to secure them & left Luk to hold the lines. It was a logical choice. The ComGuards did not drop into Luk & push us out.

The Falcons earned a draw because of how many ComGuards they smashed. Their plan was to kill all the ComGuards assigned to them then just walk in & claim the cities. The problem with that is as I mentioned earlier, once a Clan lost their campaign & withdrew A.Focht then had those ComGuard forces that were still battle ready shifted to another combat theater.

It is the same bottom line but how you phrased it irks me.

@Craig, the name is Jaroth.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

This is another tangent to the point but you are correct, IF Clan Jade Falcon laid claim to Phelans Wolves. That bit is still up in the air for me but I am going back through Jarrod's stuff.

If Jade Falcon claimed Phelns Wolves then Jarrod's line of deduction is not only plausible, its more than likely. The JF Khans of the day are certainly portrayed as politicers.

If Clan Jade Flacon did not claim Phelans Wolves than the only way they can consider themselves abjured 10 years later is if the Grand Council ordered it so. If that was the case then it doesn't matter what Ulric did before the event, Phelans Wolves are history from a Clan persepctive, a footnote. He can be a Khan but its not of a Clan (does that read right?). I doubt he even would be because the Grand Council strips all bloodnames (regardless of who awarded them) so that event happening after would still trump Ulric's move.

Either way, it's still moving into outside the timeline of my statements and does nothing to establish Clan Wolf's superiority as a military touman. The did still lose and they did still run away, so it does nothing to refute for the core examples / presentation I made.

BUt, it is something new I have learned about the Canon so I am happy about that.

That is the thing though, they did but did not. They made an illegal, unsanctioned claim of Absorption which meant ALL the Wolves. What I think is tripping people up about this whole chain of events is that Phelan's forces are NOT a separate unit at this point, they are still considered plain old Wolves. Now as their property they can make a call for Abjuration. The reason the Grand Council did not do anything about it by the time they DID convene was because of everything that happened in between.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

The reason this conversation occurred is that some people point to Clan Wolf being the only Clan that 'won' at Tukayyid as proof of military superioirty but I say the canon is very clear.

Yes, they took the two easiest objectives in the last moments of the campaign (once the Comguard had been throughly beat up by 6 other Clans) and they were holding those two cities when Comstar assembled forces for a counter attack (which was their pattern for virtually every other Clan battle). Before that Comguard counter attack could join the battle being fought, the Campaign for Tukayyid was declared over. Whether it was for humantarium reasons or because of a time limit or because of best of 7 is irrelevant to the point, unlike every other Clan, Clan Wolf did not defeat (or lose to) their oppostion, they were still engaged and the situation in doubt (being contested?) when the campaign was called off.

I would say it was both for the "best of" scenario as well as humanitarian concerns. If 3 Clans had won & 3 had lost, Clan Wolf's campaign would have been the deciding campaign & I believe both A.Focht & Ulric would have had no choice but to let the Wolf campaign play out to the end.

As I stated before, with Smoke Jaguar, Steel Viper, Nova Cat & Diamond Shark losing, the Clans could not have won. It would have been cruel to let the fighting go on & have men & women die for a battle that was already decided by that point. The reason they both called off Tukkayid was because the writing was on the wall.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

Ergo, the battle for Tukayyid is not proof of Clan Wolfs superiority vs other Clans because we will never know what would have befallen them (good or bad) had they fought the Comguard counter attack that virtually every other Clan did.

They may well have got slaughtered to a man (canon says they were hurting badly, heavy casualities, extending and low on ammo / supplies, none of which are good things). It may well have been a stunning victory against overwhelming odds.

That is the thing though, the Wolves did go in with one mentality different to that of the other Clans, conserve ammo at all costs. They prepped themselves for a long grueling slug-fest. As soon as their supply lines were threatened, they dealt with the situation swiftly & mercilessly. Also their battle strategy was more relaxed in terms of fighting. The Smoke Jaguars began fighting using Zellbrigen then abandoned it sometime during the fight.

On the flip side, the canon does not lie. They had the easiest targets & dropped last. The units specifically assigned to the Wolves would have been fresh but all the other ComGuards who were shifted after fighting previous Clans would have been pretty damn beat up.

EDIT: Apologies to all who read this previously when it was filled with forum code. I am in work so I did not get a chance to fix it until now.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 14 March 2014 - 01:09 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 13 March 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Already answered well by someone else. (I like it when that happens.)

As this is a late response to defend myself, I suggest it properly be ignored, as other people have already, basically, responded to it for me. With canon sources too. However, you can still read it in the spoiler if you wished...

Spoiler

However, I'll still respond.
1. As someone else pointed out, it did. As Comstar and Wolf ended the trial, for whatever reason. This meant that (as someone referenced) the Wolves held their two objectives at the end of the trial. Also, Clan Wolf was the only clan to actually capture their two targets and hold them for any length of time, with a small concession to Ghost Bear. Difference was, Ghost Bear quickly lost their second target, and it seemed like they didn't even hold it for a counterattack. (1)

Wolf still showed better prowess and skill on the battlefield than the other clans. Does not matter if they got the easiest targets. They had the toughest opponents (the elites) and also had to fight even more opponents than the other clans, as they were last on the planet. (2)

2. I know the difference. It wasn't the statements or actions that I argue, but the timing (3). As proved by someone else.

3. I asked for those references. I didn't see them (besides one link to a single page that I can recall). However, you may have posted them. Someone else posted the links to more "canon" sites, as I had asked from before.
http://web.archive.o...ultraforce.org/
http://ppc.warhawken...ises.com/1.html
But alas, it's too late now...

4. Funny, I was asking you to support yourself with canon, and instead kept getting half placed information. You kept tailoring what you posted to better match what your side of the tale was (4). However, as someone else already pointed this out with their own canon sources, there really is no farther reason to poke this subject. I suggest we just drop it together...

Have you checked it out recently? I think people have been updating it more reliably lately, as it's been matching what my understanding of lore has been. But, I shall admit I am not as lore buff as I wished.

And thanks for those sites. Only been asking for them for a while now from Craig... but I think I missed them if he did post them...



I think you misunderstand what a troll is. A troll creates posts to specifically create an emotional response (5) from others.

Honestly, I have not seen Nathien K post any claim that Wolf did not capture both targets.... I've been seeing him post otherwise to that statement.

Ulric and Comstar each felt that the fight did not need to go on, as the Clans had already lost. It mattered not if Wolf could hold their objectives (which it seems like they could have from someone else's canon post), as the Clans as a whole did not capture the required number of targets. As to if they could or could not have held the cities can be a debate for centuries (6), as there is no way to know. It appears to me that they probably could have held it, considering how they approached the targets.



You said that they got the two objectives, but the trial ended before it could be determined if they could hold it. You words stated that it was intentionally cut off short by Ulric (originally with no mention of Comstar), making it seem (because you still didn't post the whole story) that Ulric cut the trial short to make sure the wolves won (7). I do not feel that was the case at all, as there is more you had not been posted. Someone else posted that information for you.


Jarrod places the whole passage.(8) He didn't pick and choose the sections that make wolf seem weaker than they really are. He also didn't focus his attention and facts on things that made wolf appear weak, unlike what I saw you doing. He posted facts that made them look weak and strong. He posted the whole story, or more of the story, than you did. There is a difference. You seem to selectively cherry pick your facts, he just posted the whole thing and let us come to our own conclusion (8).


That actually is indicative of their strength. How about another point in fact, the only ones I recall wanting to take place into the Trial of Refusal against Ulric was Jade Falcon. From what I recall (I'm hoping someone can help back me up here with more definitive proof), no one else wanted to take Wolf up on that challenge. Now, I may be wrong here, but I'd love it if someone could post some canon saying on way or another about these events. (AKA: If I am right like I think I am, then Wolf was strong enough that no one else wanted to mess with their whole clan.) (9)


No other clan, besides Ghost Bear, even got that far. Not even Jade Falcon. So, they still got farther than any other clan did on their objectives. Even if they did get pushed off later (which from what I read from Jarrod's postings seemed unlikely to have happened), the only clan that could even claim to have matched them was Ghost Bear. This is indicative of their strength, at least for that trial. (10) Also, do recall the bit that they were facing the more elite units that Comstar held in reserves for the Wolf piece of the trial... (was posted here earlier from canon.)

PS: Can you once again (as I didn't catch it before) quote the canon that says the wolves where "hurting badly, heavy causalities, extending and low on ammo / supplies"? I do not recall them that low on supplies, and didn't they suffer the fewest casualties of all the clans still? (11) With two objectives taken? Also, wasn't it mentioned that Wolf brought it energy heavy configurations to help with ammo supplies? I'd really like to see this piece of canon to prove the point one way or another (12)... (Jarrod's Canon he posted seems to counter this statement...)

IDK why I keep responding to you because you clearly have nothing from a canon basis, but I will just to ensure that the non canon popular opinion is debunked for what it is.

(1 Within Spoiler) - Again Clan Wolf may not have held the cities if the counter attack had been delivered, the warriors were denied an outright victory or defeat by the campaign ending. Also, go find out from Canon what actually happened in the CGB trial, your representation here has no correlation to canon. For starters, CGB DID NOT TAKE both cities.

(2) Have you got a canon source for this or this more of your preferred fantasy world?

(3) yeah ummm, go re read your post. You made no reference to the timing but if you want to jump in on Jarrods argument and lay claim to it then you and he can sort out between yourself who got it 'right' first.

(4) I tailor nothing. I make a statement, put up canon to support it and invite people to submit an argument supported on canon. It's not my job to make an argument for you. If you believe my view is incorrect you put up your canon based argument. I'm not here to give you everything in canon and let you make up your mind. I'm here to say I've been through an awful lot of canon and the notion that Wolf is "top dog' is flawed, and here is why.

(5) What, like asking for canon information, not reading it , asking for it again on a point we are already agreed on? That sort of posting to engage an emotional response?

(6) This just made my point, thank you for finally agreeing. The Clan Wolf outcome is NOT evidence of Clan Wolf military strength because the warriors themselves did not earn a conclusive outcome.

(7) And to be fair from what we know about Ulric that may well be right. He certainly went out of his way before the Tukayyid battle to protect Clan Wolf by instructing Natahsa to lose bids and get the easiest targets so why wouldn't he step in to protect Clan Wolf at the end? It's a good point you make.

(8) Jarrod placed the whole passage I had typed out word for word exactly (go check) and you think I am picking and choosing? Really thats your argument? But yes, he did also post other sources (from canon) that throw doubt on my view (on one point at least). Ergo, I have conceded that point.

Are really arguing that I should post here and say, "I don't know what to think and can anyone help me out?" I am presenting a case here and inviting people to challenge it and you still want me to give you the answers.

(9) You start of by saying this is a point in fact and then admit you have no basis for the statement. I mean come on. I seem to recall that 3 Clans bid and fought for the right to represent the Grand Council against Clan Wolf for the Refusal War but Jade Falcon certainly hated them and Ulric was hedging they would win. If I get some time I'll try find that canon just out of interest but honestly why are you making a "point in fact" statement with no basis?

(10) So you seem to be arguing that because Clan Wolf didn't actually finish fighting their opponents like every other Clan did, they are superior? Which I guess is kinda the whole point of the discussion, that some people buy into that headline and claim it as canon but upon closer examination, we see Clan Wolf may have lost, may have won, but unlike every other Clan they did not get an outright victory or defeat.

They argument they fought the longest to a stalemate is flawed as Novacat fought for several days but the Wolf Clan Sourcebook describes Clan Wolfs battle as an overnight affair.

They didn't do the most damage as Nova Cat did more than anyone and Clan Jade Falcons result was based partly on that they had done significantly more damage to Comstar than other Clans

On those two measure alone, Clan Wolf was not superior to other Clans. So how do you make an argument they were?

(11) No they didn't. Actually thats also in canon and yet again another inaccuracy of Sarna (which I know says Clan Wolf took the least casualities). According to the Clan Wolf Source book pg 52 It was Clan Steel Viper that took the lowest casualities with 9% dead and 29% wounded. Just to really ram home the point on Sarna, that same Sarna page lists this same source book several times to support other elements of the story but posts up Clan Wolf as the lowest when the numbers are right there. You keep making an argument based on Sarna and you're gunna fail. (btw, didn't Jarrod say Sarna is a poor source? Maybe you will take his word for it?)

(12) How about you go find it if you think its the case and submit it. What I put up (which was also partly what Jarrod put up) is that Clan Wolf was moving forward (extending), had suffered heavy casualities (bought at heavy cost) ra ra ra, go re read it. It's a tangent argument at best to the point because the whether they had suffered zero casualities or not, had ammo or not, were dug in and defending or not, they still didn't face the counter attack coming their way and ergo, their result can not be compared to other Clans (which is the point you made above so we are in agreeance on this at least)

[Tesunie]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

@Craig, the name is Jaroth.

Sorry, I messed it up to. But he started it!

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 13 March 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

From what I read, incorrect. The surviving Wolves, being leaderless, was convinced that they were being absorbed into CJF as a merged trial of Absorption/Refusal. They were convinced by a CJF Khan that, as a clan, they would have a better chance of standing together as one clan, preventing the preditations of the other clans onto them.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, most clansmen was not aware of the rules of larger council dealings. Thus, without a Khan who is expected to know these rules (or someone who observed/trained with a Khan), no one knew any better than to follow Falcon's political maneuverings. This continued to lead into farther problems with the Abjuration. It wasn't until Vlad was found, who knew better as he was a higher ranked officer aware of the high Clan laws, that the deception was discovered. The trial was also unfairly ruled a win for Falcon upon Ulric's death, as it was spun to be something other than the ambush it ended up being.

Though no official trial between the two Khans (Ulric and his opponent) was officially initiated, it was highly suggested between the two and their dialogue. This underhanded move would have lost Falcon the trial. However, upon Ulric's death, the whole situation was a non-issue, as the person being charged and cleared was dead. This would only be useful of clearing Ulric's name in history, which, for the clans, was not an issue that bothered them. So, they let history be history, and leave it at that.

This is all gleaned from previous canon references already posted within this thread...

So make your case then, refute each of those 7 points with a canon based argument and show averyone where it is incorrect.

@Jaroth, wel damn me, apoligies and corrected

Edited by Craig Steele, 13 March 2014 - 08:23 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 13 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

I need to correct you there a bit. We did not get run back to the first objective. We took Luk (1) but because of the attacks on our supply lines we CHOSE to secure them & left Luk to hold the lines. It was a logical choice. The ComGuards did not drop into Luk & pushed us out. The Falcons earned a draw because of how many ComGuards they smashed. Their plan was to kill all the ComGuards assigned to them then just walk in & claim the cities. The problem with that is as I mentioned earlier, once a Clan lost their campaign & withdrew A.Focht then had those ComGuard forces that were still battle ready shifted to another combat theater. It is the same bottom line but how you phrased it irks me. @Craig, the name is Jaroth. That is the thing though, they did but did not. They made an illegal, unsanctioned claim of Absorption which meant ALL the Wolves. What I think is tripping people up about this whole chain of events is that Phelan's forces are NOT a separate unit at this point (2), they are still considered plain old Wolves. Now as their property they can make a call for Abjuration. The reason the Grand Council did not do anything about it by the time they DID convene was because of everything that happened in between.

(1) Source?

I use the Clan Wolf Sourcebook for Tukayyid as it is the only source book that reflects every battle from one viewpoint, hence it s good "benchmark" to test what more involved stakeholders represent.

That states that Clan GB took Spanac and describes a drive towards Luk that they abandoned to protect their supply lines. Once that battle was done they drove for Luk again, advancing 49kms into the 1st Comguard army and "made it to the outskirts" But then "They were unable to take Luk, but had won the day at Spanac" (pg 49)

Same source book awards them a draw as the outcome.

There are other sources that say Ulric actually ordered them offworld and called their trial over, and I know some GB sources claim Tukayyid was a narrow victory, but I know of no source that says they took both cities?

(2) This is the key reason why I conceded the point. You didn't spell it out before but I recognized it immediately as the flaw in my process. If ever canon offers up something that describes absorbtion as being over what they have control over, I'll be back to square one but I can't see that being the case. After all, if you defeat the warriors you have control over the castes / faciltiies etc of any other absorbtion so it reads quite correctly.

Edited by Craig Steele, 13 March 2014 - 08:37 PM.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

IDK why I keep responding to you because you clearly have nothing from a canon basis, but I will just to ensure that the non canon popular opinion is debunked for what it is.

(1 Within Spoiler) - Again Clan Wolf may not have held the cities if the counter attack had been delivered, the warriors were denied an outright victory or defeat by the campaign ending. Also, go find out from Canon what actually happened in the CGB trial, your representation here has no correlation to canon. For starters, CGB DID NOT TAKE both cities.

(2) Have you got a canon source for this or this more of your preferred fantasy world?

(3) yeah ummm, go re read your post. You made no reference to the timing but if you want to jump in on Jarrods argument and lay claim to it then you and he can sort out between yourself who got it 'right' first.

(4) I tailor nothing. I make a statement, put up canon to support it and invite people to submit an argument supported on canon. It's not my job to make an argument for you. If you believe my view is incorrect you put up your canon based argument. I'm not here to give you everything in canon and let you make up your mind. I'm here to say I've been through an awful lot of canon and the notion that Wolf is "top dog' is flawed, and here is why.

(5) What, like asking for canon information, not reading it , asking for it again on a point we are already agreed on? That sort of posting to engage an emotional response?

(6) This just made my point, thank you for finally agreeing. The Clan Wolf outcome is NOT evidence of Clan Wolf military strength because the warriors themselves did not earn a conclusive outcome.

(7) And to be fair from what we know about Ulric that may well be right. He certainly went out of his way before the Tukayyid battle to protect Clan Wolf by instructing Natahsa to lose bids and get the easiest targets so why wouldn't he step in to protect Clan Wolf at the end? It's a good point you make.

(8) Jarrod placed the whole passage I had typed out word for word exactly (go check) and you think I am picking and choosing? Really thats your argument? But yes, he did also post other sources (from canon) that throw doubt on my view (on one point at least). Ergo, I have conceded that point.

Are really arguing that I should post here and say, "I don't know what to think and can anyone help me out?" I am presenting a case here and inviting people to challenge it and you still want me to give you the answers.

(9) You start of by saying this is a point in fact and then admit you have no basis for the statement. I mean come on. I seem to recall that 3 Clans bid and fought for the right to represent the Grand Council against Clan Wolf for the Refusal War but Jade Falcon certainly hated them and Ulric was hedging they would win. If I get some time I'll try find that canon just out of interest but honestly why are you making a "point in fact" statement with no basis?

(10) So you seem to be arguing that because Clan Wolf didn't actually finish fighting their opponents like every other Clan did, they are superior? Which I guess is kinda the whole point of the discussion, that some people buy into that headline and claim it as canon but upon closer examination, we see Clan Wolf may have lost, may have won, but unlike every other Clan they did not get an outright victory or defeat.

They argument they fought the longest to a stalemate is flawed as Novacat fought for several days but the Wolf Clan Sourcebook describes Clan Wolfs battle as an overnight affair.

They didn't do the most damage as Nova Cat did more than anyone and Clan Jade Falcons result was based partly on that they had done significantly more damage to Comstar than other Clans

On those two measure alone, Clan Wolf was not superior to other Clans. So how do you make an argument they were?

(11) No they didn't. Actually thats also in canon and yet again another inaccuracy of Sarna (which I know says Clan Wolf took the least casualities). According to the Clan Wolf Source book pg 52 It was Clan Steel Viper that took the lowest casualities with 9% dead and 29% wounded. Just to really ram home the point on Sarna, that same Sarna page lists this same source book several times to support other elements of the story but posts up Clan Wolf as the lowest when the numbers are right there. You keep making an argument based on Sarna and you're gunna fail. (btw, didn't Jarrod say Sarna is a poor source? Maybe you will take his word for it?)

(12) How about you go find it if you think its the case and submit it. What I put up (which was also partly what Jarrod put up) is that Clan Wolf was moving forward (extending), had suffered heavy casualities (bought at heavy cost) ra ra ra, go re read it. It's a tangent argument at best to the point because the whether they had suffered zero casualities or not, had ammo or not, were dug in and defending or not, they still didn't face the counter attack coming their way and ergo, their result can not be compared to other Clans (which is the point you made above so we are in agreeance on this at least)

Actually, you and Jaroth posted the information I needed from Canon already. I have not had to prove a point. But.. for the shear entertainment of responding, I stall...

1. Read what Jaroth posted about CGB's trial... Unless he is posting from non-canon... Also, you have stated yourself that Clan Wolf was/still is the ONLY clan to actually TAKE their two objectives, and hold it for at least a short amount of time. Comstar called the trial concluded as they were rallying for a counter attack. For whatever reason Comstar called it off, we do not know. I'd suspect that they saw they already won the trial and it wasn't worth more casualties for a pointless fight. (See how the facts can be twisted? This should sound familiar, but instead of saying Ulric, I said it from Comstar's name... Gee. Now, what did I say about biased views?)

2. Look above at Jaroth's posts. He proved it for me. I had to do nothing.

3. Your memory seems flawed (still/again). Let me clear it up with a nice quote.

Tesunie, on 12 March 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

Also, the Abjure was them being Clan Falcon, and being abjured from Clan Falcon, after/as the absorption story came out. The absorption was deemed by the grand council to be false. This also means that Falcon abjured no one, as the people they abjured was not actually part of their clan. Go back up, and read those novel quotes. Vlad's Wolves did not recognize that Abjured result, so if it was a trial of Absorption, it was not complete till the remaining Wolves could be beaten. Thus, also, another reason why Wolf was not absorbed.

Looks like I did mention the timing...

4. You Tailor your facts. You make a statement, put up (pieces) of canon to support it, and dismiss anyone who posts anything that counters your own argument, even when it is directly from canon. (Or shall I quote your response to someone's novel quotes?)
What you are basically saying is,"I'm not here to tell you the full story, just the pieces that fit my concept". Your notion of Wolf being weak is based on half stories, incomplete canon, and only looking at the worse possible situations and pieces of canon, without regarding the more positive stuff that also relates to how strong they can be. (Like the fact they lost the Invasion refusal, even though it was 4 to 1 odds against, and they barely lost that trial.)

5. Actually, we asked for a lot of canon references from you for you to prove your point. If you posted it, I didn't see it. Or I say the same half tales that painted a different picture than what really happened. (Like the trial ending prematurely, when it didn't...) (Or my personal favorite, with how Jade Wolf ended up not being absorbed because of something Falcon did and such not that made it do that they could... and... oh... yeah... Sorry. Jaroth posted that canon, with far more detail, and what you posted as canon was incorrect or only a part of the tale which skewed the picture to make Wolf look weak.) (And no. I'm not going back through the pages to quote you on this. Unlike you, I have a fairly good memory.)

6. It shows their strength, but like anything, it's only a piece of the puzzle. It proves that Wolf wasn't weak. However, it does not prove that they were the strongest either. But, looking at this piece in the greater whole of the story, I'd have to say Wolf was fairly strong to be able to have pulled off what they did. Actually. It was commented on several times in what lore I have about Wolf Warriors being extremely skillful, even among the clans. There is a reason they got the Kerensky blood name. And there was a reason that it never fell outside their clans. It wasn't because they were weak and "just got lucky".

7. He made suggestions to Natasha to bid high and well. Not to lose bids. Not to mention, the other clans made their bids specifically to make sure Wolf would land last, with the least desired targets of them all. Wolf just went along with it. Wolf knew enough that, in order to win, they would need a higher bid than what the other clans were expecting they would need. She bid accordingly. Ulric also gave very similar advice to the other clans, that the fight would not be as easy as they suspected. They chose to ignore him, and wanted to place greater shame on Wolf. It failed in the end, because Comstar (see what I did there?) called off the fight early, letting Wolf have the victory. The victory earned was a hollow one anyway, as the Clans had lost by that point as a whole.

8. Which is my point. He went farther than just the one source in question, the one piece of the story, the one shard that "made his point". He went farther. He went and pulled from several pieces of lore. He constructed a larger image for all to see. You did not. That is what made the difference. Also, you "concede" and "dropped the point". You drop it and seem to expect us to no longer point to that to help prove that wolf is not weak...

9. I believe I stated "as far as I know/understand". I am human. I am prone to error. However, I have a good memory for books and information I have read. So far, I have seen most of my "I believe" statements to be fairly accurate. However, I wouldn't want to bring another Sarna link to this thread, as you would dismiss it anyway. And I don't have a source book to tell you what page to look at. And I don't have the novels handy (they are packed away when I last moved, sorry) to be able to tell or quote from that... So, I shall leave the proving or disproving end of this to people who seem to be better equipped... As you have clearly mentioned that I am not properly equipped to show you canon. So, I have stopped trying to show you canon any longer, as it is pointless for me to even try...
I could see Smoke Jaguar maybe (probably not, as they were well beaten), Ghost Bear maybe... I don't think the Nova Cats would, as they probably didn't support the charge anyway last I recall... I'd love to know what the other clans and what their bid was.

10. You seem to be arguing that because Comstar (see what I did there) ended the match, that Wolf didn't earn a victory? Every clan agrees that they had won that victory. No one disclaimed it. Oh. Except for you.
Tactics. There is more to strength than simply throwing a hammer around and seeing what breaks. Wolf showed clear tactics for that fight.
Also, do you have the exact dates of that trial? Because the sources I read said that they advanced slowly... Can anyone (Jaroth?) post this?

11. Well... you didn't provide any other linked sources. Jaroth did. I have has of yet to be able to correct anything I read from Sarna with "more accurate data". But still, what was Wolf's standing on casualties? If they weren't the lowest, was it second lowest? Third? Middle of the pack? How about you (or Jaroth) go and post that? I'm too busy now looking at the two sites linked by Jaroth (thanks by the way).

12.

Quote

ergo, their result can not be compared to other Clans (which is the point you made above so we are in agreeance on this at least)

I'm sorry, what? What part are we in agreement? The fact that Clan Wolf won? The fact that the Clans and Comstar did not argue that they had won? Or the fact that you seem to be the only one to say "They were cheated of a clear victory or defeat" when everyone else in canon seems to say and think otherwise? Which part are we in agreance to here again?

Looks to me that Wolf wasn't fighting an "overnight" attack either. It went on for at least two days... (Another flaw in your source book you were talking about? Or the new site I was linked to for "canon material"?)
http://web.archive.o....org/index.html

Quote

The Fourth Wolf Guards and the Third Battle Cluster reappeared in the bulge. Both had been conspicuous by their absence during the past two days, and their arrival was dreaded, with good reason. Their main axis of attack was aimed directly at Brzo. The force of so many Clan heavy and assault OmniMechs attempting to breach the defenses around the city was daunting, and it was understandable when the Tenth Army bent. It is to their credit that they did not immediately break.
The divisions of the Ninth Army did not wait for an order to launch their own offensive in support of the Tenth, hoping to slow the Wolf offensive. The two Clan Wolf assault clusters shifted their axis. The Ninth's assault, instead of helping to hold the Clan forces, allowed Clan Wolf to breach the defensive ring where the two armies should have met. This split the ComGuard forces into two groups, a dangerous situation.
In response to these new attacks, the Eleventh Army was dispatched to reinforce the faltering defense of Brzo. Clan Wolf was expected to attack the Ninth Army, but advance scouts reported the Clan devoting considerable effort to raiding ComGuard supply depots and creating and concealing depots of their own.
Though it was obvious that Clan Wolf was willing to use its mobility to work around advantageous ComStar positions, they remained in the Porozistu Mountains. The Eleventh ComGuards had been assigned to that area to take part in a direct engagement with ilKhan Ulric Kerensky's forces.
Clan Wolf gradually broke off individual battles to regroup for the final engagement in the mountains. The fighting began amid a raging thunderstorm. Clan Wolf moved forward slowly, feinting and thrusting to maintain their advantage. The links to their supply bases held, and ComStar's few attempts to disrupt these lines were quickly smashed. Even with this advantage, what little ground was taken was won at a heavy price. Khan Garth Radick was slain commanding Beta Galaxy.
Clan Wolf inflicted heavy enough damage on the ComStar forces that the Thirteenth Army was committed to the mountains. Before the new ComStar force could join the engagement, however, the battle for Tukayyid ended.

Also, they pushed Comstar into the mountains from what I read. Not "Comstar was grouping up an army in the moutains to attack the city", which is a bit of a difference. Also, you failed to mention that Wolf had been breaking Comstar's supply lines... See all these little details that do make a difference that you left out? And not Sarna! Also, Wolf was no longer dug into the city, but was pressing into the moutains to engage Comstar there... Seems like Wolf was just about steam rolling them towards the end.

(Can't find data still on how the Wolves stacked up by casualties... Still looking. But anyone feel free to just post it up if you have it.)

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

So make your case then, refute each of those 7 points with a canon based argument and show averyone where it is incorrect.

Once more... did you miss the huge novel entries about a page back? The works already been done for me there... all you have to do is just read it. Read my last sentences there. I tell you it was all ready posted in this thread. Shall I go back and quote the post for you? It's rather large, and probably about 2 or 3 pages back... (I believe there was two of them, from the same person, first post and second post..)

I can find and quote it if you REALLY need me to....

[Craig Steele]

@ Tesunie

1. Whats you canon source for this, or are you waiting for someone else to confirm what you think you might know?

2. Which seems to be prety much your contribution to the discussion here, offer no canon but simply try and discredit what is in canon because it doesn't suit you. Make a construction contribution.

3. You make no mention in your quote about Phelans Wolves being inclusive or exclusive of the absorbtion which was the key point. Your references to timing within that make no linkage. With the benefit of Jaroths quote you might want to jump on that band wagon but given your history of non canon I find it hard to believe.

4. So they did lose right? Which was my statement. And they did. And yes it was 4 - 1 but that doesn't change that they did lose. I put up canon that supports my statement, You still have got nothing to refute it. They did lose.

5. Do you even read the posts here. Both Jaroth and myself are posting the the Tukayyid Campaign was "ended" before the Wolf trial was finished. Its right there several times. We posted exactly the same thing. This point is the key aspect of the whole Tukayyid discussion. And yet here you are still arguing it was premature? Your memory might be great, but your ability to comprehend is in massive doubt if that's any indication.

6. Absolute dribble. If the warriors of Clan Wolf did not finish their battle you are making an apples to apples comparison to every other Clan that did finish their battle (whatever that outcome might have been). You sir are far to dedicated to your ideas to be able to step back and look at the points objectivily.

7. All you have shown here is firstly that you did not read the canon I posted, and that you have very little understanding of the bidding process. They bid against each other, so of course a 'high bid' is a losing bid. And yes, after arguing so long that it was a joint Ulric Comstar decision to terminate the campaign, you now place all the responibility on Comstar. No canon to support that, but my presentation was on a solid deduction. ie, UK we give up it's 4- 2 at best, AF oh ok, ceasefire then?

8. What a ridiculous thing to say. Jaroth assembled some canon to refute a point, he did not offer any canon irrelevant to the point he was making. And you somehow you elevate what he does when he does exactly the same as I do. He had a point and supported it with canon. Something I have invited you to do several times which you have yet to do. I get that what he did supports a point you couldn't make yourself so maybe you should thank him, but don't portray that it's anything more than what it, he made a point and supported it with canon. For example, he did not present any canon about the grand crusader conspiracy at Tukayyid when 4 warden Clans apparently sucumbed to the 2 Crusaders cause. By your standard he's guilty of the same thing I am, presenting a distorted picture. Oh wait, no thats right, he presented canon to support his point, same as me.

9. Fair enough, but you seem to be pretty quick to hold me up to a higher standard of correctness, so I expect no less than you. Treat other people as you expect to be treated. I think if you reread this thread I was pretty fair and even with everyone until I started getting flamed (by you as I recall) for asking people to keep the discussion on a canon basis. But I digress.

10. And again, you clearly have not read or comprehended. Let me be clear.

Clan Wolf won at Tukayyid

It was an ajudged victory based on the fact that they were holding both cities at the time the Campaign for Tukayyid was 'ended'.

The canon also shows that Clan Wolf had not defeated their opponents in the field, and that a counter attack was pending. So we know for a fact that were it not for the Campaign being 'ended' that Clan Wolf would still be fighting to meet the conditions of their trial (ie, hold both cities). The trial was not a 'first to tag wins' trial, this was a battle between two forces. If your enemy is still in the field fighting, then the status of the objective is still in doubt, it can be retaken.

11. How about you go find it out if its important to you. I doubt you will as you seem to have very little interest in canon unless it suits your preferred world, but hey go for it.

12. You seem to consistently cloud the fact that Clan Wolf's trial was not the Campaign for Tukayyid, it was bigger than just them. Clan Wolf did not secure a firm outcome in their trial by dint of their warriors efforts. Period. End of story

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you see a description of "overnight" (and I had previously said 2 days) as me misrepresenting a battle of two days. What country has an a three day battle with only one night? Or are you of the view that unless canon timestamps a full 48 hours it's not a two day battle? Honestly this reads of more that you are attacking me instead of making a positive canon based contribution.

And as for your little summary at the end, well yes all those little details do make a difference. Not to the point we were discussing, but the do make a difference. Pretty sure I did summarise that different ways as "giving as good as they got" (cause well Comstar tried for Wolf supply depots too you know) and "Heavy stuff" (cause the battle wasn't one sided you see) but sure. By all means we can clog up thread with all sorts of canon that has no bearing to the point.

And as for you subsequent post just after. No it has not. I have 7 points which canon supports that paint a picture of Clan Wolf being weaker than other Clans. So far Jaroth has produced an argument that Clan Wolf was not 'absorbed" which I have conceded and amened my view accordingly. But that tangent point does not change that Clan Wolf STILL LOST, they surrendered or ran away form the CoE, thats canon.

If you feel up to it I invite you to prove Clan Wolf 'top dog' or whatever statement you want to make with a canon based argument. This is what, the third time I have invited you to and still you offer nothing. If you want to let someone else fight your battles for you, then watch and see.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Yeah not sure how you guys turned J-A-R-O-T-H into J-A-R-R-O-D but cool, we all make mistakes.

To deal with recent points made:

Tesunie, on 13 March 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

That actually is indicative of their strength. How about another point in fact, the only ones I recall wanting to take place into the Trial of Refusal against Ulric was Jade Falcon. From what I recall (I'm hoping someone can help back me up here with more definitive proof), no one else wanted to take Wolf up on that challenge. Now, I may be wrong here, but I'd love it if someone could post some canon saying on way or another about these events. (AKA: If I am right like I think I am, then Wolf was strong enough that no one else wanted to mess with their whole clan.)

Not exactly, the Jade Falcons, as with all Trials of Refusal, simply won the right to represent the Grand Council.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

(9) You start of by saying this is a point in fact and then admit you have no basis for the statement. I mean come on. I seem to recall that 3 Clans bid and fought for the right to represent the Grand Council against Clan Wolf for the Refusal War but Jade Falcon certainly hated them and Ulric was hedging they would win. If I get some time I'll try find that canon just out of interest but honestly why are you making a "point in fact" statement with no basis?

I cannot confirm at this time the number of Clans, but yes it is stated the Jade Falcons won the right.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

(10) So you seem to be arguing that because Clan Wolf didn't actually finish fighting their opponents like every other Clan did, they are superior? Which I guess is kinda the whole point of the discussion, that some people buy into that headline and claim it as canon but upon closer examination, we see Clan Wolf may have lost, may have won, but unlike every other Clan they did not get an outright victory or defeat.

They argument they fought the longest to a stalemate is flawed as Novacat fought for several days but the Wolf Clan Sourcebook describes Clan Wolfs battle as an overnight affair.

They didn't do the most damage as Nova Cat did more than anyone and Clan Jade Falcons result was based partly on that they had done significantly more damage to Comstar than other Clans

On those two measure alone, Clan Wolf was not superior to other Clans. So how do you make an argument they were?

I see what you are saying but he might have an argument with the in-depth analysis of the fighting. As I said the Clan Wolf mentality was to preserve ammo at all costs & in that they achieved much success. The Nova Cats & Jade Falcons tried to win by attrition which ultimately failed. The other Clans tried to actually take an objective then hunker down to defend it. When I get home I will go to the Tukkayid scenario pack to confirm.

Craig Steele, on 13 March 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

(1) Source?

I use the Clan Wolf Sourcebook for Tukayyid as it is the only source book that reflects every battle from one viewpoint, hence it s good "benchmark" to test what more involved stakeholders represent.

That states that Clan GB took Spanac and describes a drive towards Luk that they abandoned to protect their supply lines. Once that battle was done they drove for Luk again, advancing 49kms into the 1st Comguard army and "made it to the outskirts" But then "They were unable to take Luk, but had won the day at Spanac" (pg 49)

Same source book awards them a draw as the outcome.

There are other sources that say Ulric actually ordered them offworld and called their trial over, and I know some GB sources claim Tukayyid was a narrow victory, but I know of no source that says they took both cities?

(2) This is the key reason why I conceded the point. You didn't spell it out before but I recognized it immediately as the flaw in my process. If ever canon offers up something that describes absorbtion as being over what they have control over, I'll be back to square one but I can't see that being the case. After all, if you defeat the warriors you have control over the castes / faciltiies etc of any other absorbtion so it reads quite correctly.

Sorry I think it is because I am almost at the end of this 10 hour shift, but I am not sure what you are actually asking/contesting by requesting the source for. Please elaborate.

Time to go, I will address the other posts when I get home.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 14 March 2014 - 01:51 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 14 March 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

Yeah not sure how you guys turned J-A-R-O-T-H into J-A-R-R-O-D but cool, we all make mistakes.

Family member, habit, apologies again