343 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 10 March 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

1. If it's "so close", then what's the problem? Also, you do know that you can create an account for Sarna, and correct any oversights you see... So far, I have not seen anything out of place on Sarna. So, I'm inclined to look at Sarna as a fairly reliable source. If I link to a page, the page has links showing it's sources. You can go link hunting and seeing how reliable the source is if you wish.

2. You keep saying the clans go by "Might makes right". So, the Widowmaker's might used on the merchant class should have been fine. Their might made them right. Right? Apparently the other clans didn't agree with your statement... and then they had to show more might...

3. Nicolas pressed false charged onto an entire clan to get it eliminated when he was Ilkhan... Nicolas's will has nothing to do with the invasion. The invasion was what the current clans wanted for glory, honor, out of fear and a desire to fulfill their "manifest destiny". Well, most of that is on the Crusader beliefs. And as mentioned several times, each clan (and clan warrior even) had a different view on what that goal was and how to obtain it. Wolf was just more radical in it's pursuit and concept of that goal. (This is seriously as bad as being told I'm not playing by page 5 in Warmachine/Hoards with my circle army. Page 5 basically says to not hold back when you play. I tend to attack and withdraw with my Circle army. I get accused of not following page 5, when in fact I am. I'm just not being stupid enough to stand there and let you swing back and kill me is all.)

4. Read Nicolas. Read Clan Wolverine. He acted in his own manner. http://www.sarna.net.../Clan_Wolverine
He was on the verge of losing power, and he created events to regain power at the cost of an entire clan. And entire INNOCENT clan...
"The Wolverines were among the most vocal critics of ilKhan Nicholas Kerensky's authoritarian rule over the Clans. Official Clan histories state that they were Annihilated for expousing anti-Clan sentiments, such as democracy and independence, but the reality is somewhat different. Many Clans were suffering internal strife at the time of the Clan Wolverine incident, and Nicholas saw that the Clans as a whole were on the brink of rebelling against his authority. The Wolverines served as both object lesson and common enemy against whom the other nineteen Clans could unite. There were also personal reasons for dissent between Khan Sarah McEvedy and Nicholas Kerensky - McEvedy was close to Nicholas' brother Andery Kerensky and suspected that Nicholas played a strong role in his death."
All that to, basically, dodge what may have been a possible murder charge...

5. They were one of the top four clans in strength. Most of those fights they "lost", they were grossly out matched, and even then they barely lost. If they were Falcons, they would be calling them all draws, simply because they "caused more damage than they did". (Jade Falcons, by the way, where considered to be a little weaker than Wolf, but was stronger in the political realm.)

6. And you say this right before you call them weak again... contradict yourself much?

7. I have to agree with someone else. When they were fighting those "smaller forces", how far down did they bid? Did they manage to take worlds with a company of mechs with but a single star? Did they manage to maybe take over worlds with only a single warrior? Due to clan customs, they may have had the easiest attack option, but that doesn't mean they made it easy for themselves. Can you provide the numbers on how many mechs were bid in each engagement for every force of the clans, and the exact size of the forces that they were fighting against? For all we know, Wolf could have been underbidding everyone else by odds and ratio sizes. They could have been going into every fight 4-1 odds, and the rest of the clans could have been bidding on 2-1 odds...

8. Wolf was the ONLY clan to take their two objectives. As soon as they took their two objectives, they won. They did not have to hold the two objectives, only take the two. Falcon had entered into one objective and had to run. Ghost Bear took one objective and held it, but was unable to take the second one, which would have ended their fight there. The match was over rightly so as soon as Wolf took the second objective. Also, Wolf took on larger numbers than the rest of the clans, again. Every solider that didn't get taken down by the other clans, Wolf had to fight, on top of the same sized force as the rest of the clan forces had to face. They also, unlike the other clans, had to fight the most experienced members of the Comguard. Shall I post the link to Sarna... wait. That's right. The only source I have that I can quickly and easily pull from you don't consider Cannon...

9. Cannon is actually VERY clear on this. Wolf was the only clan to win a decisive victory. Ghost Bear's earned a marginal victory, by being able to take one objective, but failing to be able to get the second one. But they didn't lose the first objective either. Jade Falcon earned a Draw, because they set foot into one target, was unable to hold onto it for any real amount of time, and then high tailed it out of there. They earned a draw (not a win, but not a loss either) due to being able to make it to their target, and causing more damage than they took in.
So, sorry. You are wrong there. Only two clans managed to win. One clan drove it down to a draw. And the rest lost.

10. If you refer to Sarna, so far I have seen it to be accurate. Till proven otherwise (and then I'll be telling Sarna that something is not cannon), I shall continue to use it as a reference. Seen as, you are also the only person to say Sarna isn't good for referencing about cannon material...

1. Because while it is close it is not 100% accurate. Again, I don't mind debating the subject but I prefer to debate on CANON sources as it it the BT universe as supported by the owners of the property. Sarna DOES have ommissions and additions and I am not going to counter them all because just like this thread now, it becomes about the source of the facts rather than the facts themselves. If you want to quote the source Sarna references to, go for it. If you want to quote Sarna than I am not having that debate because it is not canon.

2. You should already know the answer to this. The Grand Council has a mandate to ensure the good governance of all Clans and while they do not interfere with any Clans internal governance, they can question it. (Another Clan cannot, only the Grand Council can). So the Grand Council expressed a concern, Widowmaker defended it in combat and lost. The only point here is that Widowmaker accpeted the judgement on the battlefield where as Clan Wolf did not accept the result of their trials. Thats kinda double standards right because it was Wolf that absorbed Widowmaker and they expected (and even punished infractions) Widowmaker to honour the result in battle.

3 & 4. I am very familiar with Nicholas and Wolverine and we can have a very engaging discussion about that if you wish. I skimmed this as I think we might be both on the same page to be honest. I think Wolverine was made an example of by a dictator about to lose power. It doesn't have relevance that I see to this debate though. How are you linking this to the current thread? What's your point?

5. Considered by who? Not by any canon comment I know of? You seem to be portaying me as putting Jade Falcons up on a pedastal, I am not. My view which is undisputable in canon is that Clan Wolf lost major interclan battles (some against Jade Falcon) and hence was weaker than other Clans. Their leadership was also flawed from the words of Nicholas and the will of the Grand Council.

6.Read the words, there is a difference between being the bottom of the pack and being weaker than some. You are reading what you want. Fact is Clan Wolf would probably snot Blood Spirits every day of the week, but that doesn't make them a military powerhouse.

7. This is a tangent argument that proves nothing for the point raised. So they had less forces on the field, big deal. The point was raised that because Clan Wolf took less casualities they were a superior military force. The fact is they took less casualities because they were facing less opposition, ergo it is NOT an argument for Clan Wolfs supposed superior military acumen.

8. No, the trial was not just the seizure of objectives it was also the defeat of the Comstar forces. Why do you think they were still fighting after taking the objectives? If that was all it took then Comstar would have stopped shooting as soon as the objectives were taken, THEY MADE THE CHALLENGE remember. Comstar wanted to fight Clan style for a good reason and the fight was STILL going after the objectives were seized. How do you come to the conclusion that Clan Wolf faced "more troops' they landed last after the other Clans had chewed out the Comstar forces and there is no record I can see that all the other armies can and concentrated on Clan Wolf anyway.

You're right, I don't look at the Sarna link as canon and that's why I try and explain to everyone what canon is. I get you don't agree with me if you have not read a canon source and that would explain why your view is slanted fromt he canon. But that doesn't make me wrong, it makes your source non canon. I'm not alone in this, the people who run and manage the BT Universe also think Sarna is not canon.

9. Direct from the Clan Wolf Source book, pg 52 "Clan Wolf was the only Clan to capture both objectives. Only Clan Ghost Bear and Clan Jade Falcon achieved a draw, and the other Clans were defeated". There you go, a canon source. Only one Clan was judged a 'win' four were judged a 'loss' and two were a 'draw'. I know there are subsequent views on Ghost Bear and Jade Falcon outcomes, my point has never been to argue those definitions. My point is that whatever definition you use (draw, narrow victory, etc) that they were the same. Really this is another tangent argument to the point which was that Clan Wolf was judged a win even though the battle was unfinished. If you want to point to this as proof of Clan Wolf superioirty I say let the battle play out like every other clan had to and then compare apples to apples.

10. Fine, you use it. I am not saying it's not a good source but it does have some inconsistencies. I am saying that the people who manage and own the BT Universe say its not canon then I'll go along with their judgement. I have shown you the link that quite clearly demonstrates I am not the only person who thinks that but if you want to ignore it, all power to you. But I prefer to have a debate on a consistent reliable canon and so I am not going to debate Sarna sources.

[Craig Steele]

SMDMadCow, on 10 March 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

Actually, the ability to take a planet without wasting lives is looked higher on in Clan culture than having to fight for it. The Clans are not always about "might is right" or the Diamond Sharks would never be known as the merchant masters, there does not have to be trial over everything.
Waste is abhorred in Clan society above all else and is the basis of Zellbrigen and the bidding system. You bid down make sure you are not wasting materiel, while at the same time saying your peen is bigger cause you can do it with less.

All quite correct and no argument.

But in a might is right culture, diplomacy is not highly regarded as military outcomes

Throughout all these posts I freely acknowledge politics has a place in Clan space.

But some people point to this example (ie, Phelan taking a planet single handedly) as proof of Clan Wolfs military superiority and the fact is (and remains) that no combat took place on Gunzburg. Phelan did not fight.

It is not evidence of military superiority because quite bluntly, there was no military action.

[Tesunie]

Okay, how old are some of those resource books? Some of those books have actually been deemed non-cannon now. Even beyond that, I OWN NONE OF THE SOURCE BOOKS. Telling me "Page 1739054 of the Sphere Empire source book" is useless to me. (And man, that looks like one THICK book.) You want to go quoting cannon facts, I need to be able to see them. YOU go linking these facts from YOUR cannon internet sites. Then, we will be on level playing field. Till then, I believe Sarna to be fairly accurate, even if it isn't perfect. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate to be considered a source.

PS: This Nicolas character you keep mentioning and his vision. The Clan Wolverine incident I keep mentioning. I'm showing you that the IllKhan position tends to get used very often for "personal agendas, personal gain, and to farther one's own goals" all the time. Nicolas did so. He killed an entire clan to basically dodge a murder charge. I don't think you can get any more personal gain than that. But he's been considered a hero. Ulric used his power to farther Clan Wolf, and to farther his own ideal as to how the Clans should approach the Inner Sphere. No different than Nicolas did, and wasn't actually breaking any clan edicts on their "Manifest Destiny". He just wanted to do it in a different way...

[Craig Steele]

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Suuuure ya didn't.

So far every thing they have quoted has had a cannon source
Every single thing they have quoted from sarna has been quoting a cannon source.
Complete with links to where to find said cannon source.

I say again:


Edit: Sarna may not be cannon itself - but when it tells you directly where to find the cannon source it is quoting.....

Sharwolf, maybe you get this maybe you don't (idk what the ignore list does) but I can see now how you came to this. You were drawing the link between the post on the books and my subsequent post.

Apologies, it was an overtype. When I started typing that post was not there and I can now see how you drew that line.

I should have phrased it better or quoted appropriately so the linkage was clear on my point of refute. My point is still that I prefer to debtate on canon sources and if people want to argue a point on non canon sources then I am not going to do that.

[Alaskan Nobody]

What is it with people more or less screaming "HEY LISTEN!" after you put them on ignore?

I thought people held that as the worst part of that game.

"But Shar! We should have tolerance! Only Jackasses completely ignore another person!"

If they aren't willing to pay that much attention to what others are typing - why should we read what they type at all?

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 10 March 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Okay, how old are some of those resource books? Some of those books have actually been deemed non-cannon now. Even beyond that, I OWN NONE OF THE SOURCE BOOKS. Telling me "Page 1739054 of the Sphere Empire source book" is useless to me. (And man, that looks like one THICK book.) You want to go quoting cannon facts, I need to be able to see them. YOU go linking these facts from YOUR cannon internet sites. Then, we will be on level playing field. Till then, I believe Sarna to be fairly accurate, even if it isn't perfect. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate to be considered a source.

PS: This Nicolas character you keep mentioning and his vision. The Clan Wolverine incident I keep mentioning. I'm showing you that the IllKhan position tends to get used very often for "personal agendas, personal gain, and to farther one's own goals" all the time. Nicolas did so. He killed an entire clan to basically dodge a murder charge. I don't think you can get any more personal gain than that. But he's been considered a hero. Ulric used his power to farther Clan Wolf, and to farther his own ideal as to how the Clans should approach the Inner Sphere. No different than Nicolas did, and wasn't actually breaking any clan edicts on their "Manifest Destiny". He just wanted to do it in a different way...

Well its a forum man, I can't hand you the library and say have a look. What I put forward I try and identify specifically the difference between canon quotes and my views but sure, you'll have to take my word for it I guess.

It doesn't change that Sarna is non canon.

So I guess what it comes down to is if you want to rely on a non canon source fine, but some people will argue that your view is non canon.

On the Nicholas thing, I see where you you are going and your sentiment, we are on the same page about the events of the day. But if we are comparing the two there are some very significant differences.

Without going into the whole Wolverine saga, Nicholas was supported by the Grand Council (ie, they debated and agreed with him) and so the actions that followed were in agreeance by all Khans / Clans.

Ulric was not. Ulric debated and lost, challenged and lost. Both at the Invasion Trial of Refusal and when appointed as Il Khan Ulric was required by Clan lore to act in accordance with the desire of the Grand Council and he chose not to.

Thats the key difference, Ulric took an oath that he would obey the Grand Council, the same as Nicholas, but Ulric chose not to, ergo, canon shows us that he had committed treason to the Clans.

Subsequently when the Grand Council came to understand this they called for Clans Wolf's absorbtion (mid Refusal War) as the Khans of Clan Wolf were deemed no longer fit to rule (because they were traitors). This Trial was also lost by Clan Wolf (although it was largely decided anyway by the Refusal War) and so Clan Wolf was absorbed and the remenants labelled Clan Jade Wolves.

Those Wolves that had fled the field were still labelled traitor and cast out of Clan culture (Abjured). Only IS sources (well and maybe some of Vlad's Wolves) consider Phelan's Clan Wolf in Exile as Clan.

[Tesunie]

Well, he isn't posting any information that we can see as positive cannon, as he provides no links. And he wont hear us out at all because we are all using Sarna... so why does he even bother trying to argue when he has no legs to stand on by our view point, and we have no legs by his view point?

[Craig Steele]

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

What is it with people more or less screaming "HEY LISTEN!" after you put them on ignore?

I thought people held that as the worst part of that game.

"But Shar! We should have tolerance! Only Jackasses completely ignore another person!"

If they aren't willing to pay that much attention to what others are typing - why should we read what they type at all?

Is that fair?

I was mid post and didn't see a new post come in but after the event I went back, and acknowledged an error.

Subsequently I addressed that post specifically so I don't think I am disregarding at all.

It's your call of course but I think I have shown that not only am I willing to admit my mistakes but I am also willing to address everyone who addresses me. I am far from ignoring anyone's contribution I fell.

I made a mistake, I said sorry.

[Tesunie]

If it was a true absorption, there would have been no "Jade Wolves". It would have only been "Jade Falcon"...

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 10 March 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

Well, he isn't posting any information that we can see as positive cannon, as he provides no links. And he wont hear us out at all because we are all using Sarna... so why does he even bother trying to argue when he has no legs to stand on by our view point, and we have no legs by his view point?

But you can go to the PDF's or your friends library or acquire the books yourself and come a canon based view. It's not like I hide the source I am quoting is it? I mean I put up book and page yeah?

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 10 March 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

If it was a true absorption, there would have been no "Jade Wolves". It would have only been "Jade Falcon"...

Kinda, it was an Absorbtion sanctioned by the Grand Council but the Falcon Khans chose to give the Wolves an identity within the Jade Falcons. In some ways it might have been viewed as creating a new Galaxy or military unit. It's certainly a first and had immediate consequences, Vlad took full advantage and claimed it back because it was certainly a seperate possession that could be claimed.

Had the JF Khans not given it an identity, Vlad could not have fought the challenge he did.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tesunie, on 10 March 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

So why does he even bother trying to argue when he has no legs to stand on by our view point, and we have no legs by his view point?

Same reason Victor Morson or the Goons do/did.

Because they are right - and thus anyone who disagrees needs to be bashed with their "facts" until we bow to their obviously superior knowledge.

Knowledge so superior they need no "facts" beyond their own words to back it up.

FYI dear "buddy" Craig?

Ignore means I can see THAT you posted - and it still tells me you quoted me - but I don't have a clue what garbage you are still spewing.

[Tesunie]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

But you can go to the PDF's or your friends library or acquire the books yourself and come a canon based view. It's not like I hide the source I am quoting is it? I mean I put up book and page yeah?

Sure, I'll just whip up some PDFs of the source books. Or visit no-one's library...

Oh, and what edition source book are you quoting. Are the remakes? When translated to PDF, did they revise anything? Sometimes the digital copy has different page numbers than the physical copies... See some of the problems there? (And no. I'm not about to spend money on source books just to prove a point one way or another. Sorry.)

[Craig Steele]

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

Same reason Victor Morson or the Goons do/did.

So wait,

Because I have actual canon sources I am not allowed to debate them in forums with other people representing they have a view based on canon sources without establishing that they do or do not actually know what they are talking about?

And those people who do not have Canon sources I am required to accept their views regardless of my Canon sources which determine otherwise because they can link it in the forums?

Have I summarised that accurately?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Reported yet again.

And if the bit Tesunie quoted is anywhere near indicative of what you are posting.... you are not doing your side of the argument any favors.

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 10 March 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:

Sure, I'll just whip up some PDFs of the source books. Or visit no-one's library...

Oh, and what edition source book are you quoting. Are the remakes? When translated to PDF, did they revise anything? Sometimes the digital copy has different page numbers than the physical copies... See some of the problems there? (And no. I'm not about to spend money on source books just to prove a point one way or another. Sorry.)

Well if you're not prepared to debate a canon argument, what are you doing here?

I mean if you don;t know what you're talking about, should I be simply dismissing you?

I don't think I have, rather I have tried to share with you what I can but is that what you are saying?

You don't have canon and you're not going to get canon sources but you will argue what canon is without a canon reference?

Is that right?

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 08:10 PM, said:

Reported yet again.

And if the bit Tesunie quoted is anywhere near indicative of what you are posting.... you are not doing your side of the argument any favors.

Reported why?

[Alaskan Nobody]

"HEY LISTEN!"
Hey guys - think I have found the next Navi.

Seems about as intelligent as the last one - since he seems completely oblivious as toward the deeper portions of the concept of ignoring.

On the other hand - if he is waving random PDFs pulled from the internet as more cannon than the wiki site
(which links to where you can buy the quoted sources to confirm it yourself...)


.......yeah.

We have given our sources bub - and the sources that source pulled from.

"I PULLED IT FRUM A Pee-Dee-eF I FOUND ON TEH INTIRNETZ!"

Is hardly making you look smart.

Edit: P- D is censored?
wonder why.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 10 March 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[Tesunie]

Cannon this. Cannon that. Cannon cannon cannon...

You've been dismissing me this whole time. When I present something, you conveniently" don't understand it", and then I have to spend 3 to 4 additional posts explaining how it is related and what I am talking about. Then, after I do that, you tell me it's not cannon "but so close".

You want to, on the other hand, "quote" cannon sources, and don't provide any way for me to check these sources besides to "take your word for it". Either that or buy all these books. I'm not rich. Now, if you wish to buy me all these source books, by all means. Till then, I have to quote where and when I can. I'm no super cannon buff person. But I read a lot of the novels. I read the Twilight of the Clans series. I'm not about to go reading through the entire series just to find the one page I can quote on this one thing to, and this one version... for a book you probably don't even have.

You want to shout cannon. Fine. But use cannon we ALL CAN SEE. Saying "Page 3667892378476239843ty478324y32879 of the great war book" means nothing, unless I HAVE THAT BOOK. However, providing a link to one of those magic cannon approved sites you keep mumbling about would be a GREAT start. You could also take some kind of photo or something of your source book, in the section you are referencing to, and post that up here (but even that might be questionable, as I have a graphic design degree and know how far someone can go to make something fake that looks real).

You want to prove your point using cannon. Then prove your cannon to start with. Prove it in a way that everyone here will know that it is official, and we all can read it. Right now, you are referencing to things that we just "have to take your word for". You argue against us with this.

On page 39 of the wolf source book, it says "The wolves, though out numbered 4-1 in the trial of Refusal, narrowly lost, leaving only one enemy mech left standing." So? Do you believe me? Did I mention this is an original source book, is 296 pages long, and says how much the Wolves were betrayed by the other Clans. Oh, it also says on page 97 "Jade Falcons are weak, but don't poke the sleeping Ghost Bear."

[VanillaG]

Craig Steele, on 10 March 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

But in a might is right culture, diplomacy is not highly regarded as military outcomes

Their culture is more "winning is right" not "might is right". The ideal commander is the one that can accomplish the objective with the minimal amount of resources expended. Anyone who underbids and fails to accomplish the objective has just wasted resources.

[Craig Steele]

Shar Wolf, on 10 March 2014 - 08:15 PM, said:

"HEY LISTEN!"
Hey guys - think I have found the next Navi.

Seems about as intelligent as the last one - since he seems completely oblivious as toward the deeper portions of the concept of ignoring.

On the other hand - if he is waving random PDFs pulled from the internet as more cannon than the wiki site
(which links to where you can buy the quoted sources to confirm it yourself...)


.......yeah.

We have given our sources bub - and the sources that source pulled from.

"I PULLED IT FRUM A Pee-Dee-eF I FOUND ON TEH INTIRNETZ!"

Is hardly making you look smart.

Edit: P- D is censored?
wonder why.

The OP here demonstrated a limited understanding and asked a question about Clan Wolf.

A few people gave him some information and I gave him some stuff from canon.

Some people disagreed with the things I had quoted from canon. I am sure many of them have canon sources and perhaps went and checked.

I submitted that some of the information in canon supports conclusions, and some does not support long held views.

Some people disagreed with this and are now quoting non canon sources to support their contary views.

I maintain that non canon sources are not going to provide a good understanding of the canon world.

I'm sorry if you don't like that canon doesn't suit your understanding and I am sorry that your understanding of the world is built on non canon sources, but that's not my problem.

I've tried to help and show people who don't have a canon understanding some things from canon but it's not my decision that the BT guys prefer to sell books and protect their IP with Copyright laws making it unavailable on the net.

So here I am, defending the information in canon as true and correct with people saying I've never even read a book and not going to but you are wrong.

Wow, so we come to the common conclusion of threads which is if you cannot refute the point with intelligence, you attack the poster and make sure everyone thinks they are dumb and therefore their posts irrelevant, ergo your point is proved as I am stupid.

Bravo, congrats. Well played.

Canon is there but if you want to disregard it and have your alternative world all power to you.

Just as long as we are all on the same page that your little version of events has nothing to do with canon.

Enjoy