343 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 07 March 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

2. "Clan Wolf was the only dissenter and immediately called a Trial of Refusal. Although the vote was astonishingly one sided at sixteen to one, pre-battle bidding reduced the odds against the Wolves to a 'mere' four to one. The Wardens fought like fanatics, taking many more Crusaders down than they lost, but in the end were unable to beat the odds; the way was now open for the invasion of the Inner Sphere." Sarna.net, Refusal War. *passes the salt*

"Wolf Khan Ulric Kerensky, an ardent Warden, protested mightily against the upcoming invasion. He was dismayed somewhat when even the Wolf's closest allies went along with the plan. He declared a Trial of Refusal and skillfully negotiated the odds down to four to one. The Wolf forces proved again their formidable prowess, particularly the Third Battle Cluster, but victory was snatched from their grasp by virtue of sheer numbers." WarrhawkPPC, Clan Wolf history (She is mostly Falcon so... *takes salt back*)

3. It was mostly to show the IS "we are not your enemy" than the Crusaders "we are right". It does not matter if they of won, the Wardens would still be under Crusader harassment.

4. How does being "nu Clan like" show that they are not smart? If anything it shows that they are the smartest.

2. So firstly, those are not canon sources. But most of it is quoted from canon sources. Interesting that you choose those two examples though, one says that the attackers bid the odds down to 4 - 1 which would be correct in Clan culture, the other says Ulric skillfuly negotiated the odds down and paints Ulric as a master negotiator. This is why relying on non canon source can paint different pictures than the BT universe and why people get the wrong idea on some subjects.

The process would have been Wolf Clan states what forces they will use to defend themselves.
Each Clan would then match Wolf Clans defending force creating 16 - 1 odds.
The attackers would then 'bid down' with the lowest bidder earning the right to fight.
(In some cases, Clans actually ally on the attacking side by consent)
Game on.

As you can see, Ulric doesn't get to negotiate the attackers force. He has already declared his hand.

In any case Wolf still lost, which is the key point.

3. The canon source's identifies Ulric's thoughts as being all about Clan politics. According to the refusal war sources Phelan didn't even tell his father he was coming until the battle was already decided. It was very much a Warden (Wolf) vs Crusader (Falcon) engagement sought by Ulric to implement his personal agenda. Ulric wanted to protect the Inner Sphere from the Clans and he used his authority to betray the Clans to do so.

As to whether they would have been harrassed by other Crusaders. That's possibly true. We know the Clans are aggressive and Clan Wolf didn't have a lot of friends. But consider what we also know for sure. After loosing the Refusal War Clan Wolf was strong enough to hold on to their holdings, if they won they would have been in a stronger position so that suggests it's more likely they would have rebuffed any inter Clan aggression.

Also consider that throughout Clan sources, after big trials victorious Clans are not victimised. Wolf taking Wolverine and Widowmaker, no one came for them. Smoke Jaguar taking Mongoose, no one came after them. This suggests that Clan culture allowed a time to recover from inter Clan Trials. Perhaps it's part of their culture of honourable combat (ie, we'll fight, but we won't take advantage of you'). The only person who feared the possibility was Ulric (he spoke about to the other Khans) so based on canon, it's more likely this fear of other Crusaders harrasement was more of Ulric's scare tactics and not a serious threat.

4. My point has nothing to do with 'smartest'. It is to highlight that in a culture where 'Might is Right', Clan Wolf lost repeatedly and ran away from battle. It is that in a Culture that is strongly focusses on military type chain of command (like caste systems) that Ulric twisted Clan Wolf to be a 'jobs for the boys'. It is to show that if you take away the excuses, Clan Wolf was a weak Clan at best, and in many ways did not hold to Clan culture. They were along way from Nicholas's vision of Clan society.

There's a lot of similarities between Ulric and Stephan Amaris. Both abused their power to achieve their personal goals. Both twisted their personal armies away from their 'sworn oaths' to fulfil other goals. Both hid behind a cloak of 'righteousness' to pursue their own agenda. Both were traitors to the regimes they claimed to support.

[1453 R]

To put it far more simply:

The Wolves were Good Guys...in the Inner Sphere's view. Something of an Enemy Mine situation, wherein Clan Wolf was working for the Inner Sphere's own good as much as it was able from within the strictures and confines of the Clans' society. According to the Clans, Ulric's Wolves were indeed vile criminals, and Ulric himself was something of a Moriarty, a wicked mastermind who did irreparable damage to the Invasion. Very literally such, as it was Ulric's work that gave Comstar the openings and information it needed to sue for, and then win, the Battle of Tukayyid which was the final nail in the Invasion's coffin.

If you're a Clan player through and through, then the Wolves are weak, feeble, treacherous and un-Clan. If, however, you're something of a Phelan Kell yourself, somewhere halfway between the Inner Sphere and the Clan way - and if you're completely repulsed by Jaguar and Falcon brutality, arrogance, and systematic repression and degradation of any of their non-warrior castes, with the possible exception of techs. There is no doubt whatsoever of who the Bad Guys are in this piece, mang - then the Wolves might very well be for you.

Edited by 1453 R, 07 March 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[Craig Steele]

1453 R, on 07 March 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

To put it far more simply:

The Wolves were Good Guys...in the Inner Sphere's view. Something of an Enemy Mine situation, wherein Clan Wolf was working for the Inner Sphere's own good as much as it was able from within the strictures and confines of the Clans' society. According to the Clans, Ulric's Wolves were indeed vile criminals, and Ulric himself was something of a Moriarty, a wicked mastermind who did irreparable damage to the Invasion. Very literally such, as it was Ulric's work that gave Comstar the openings and information it needed to sue for, and then win, the Battle of Tukayyid which was the final nail in the Invasion's coffin. (1)

If you're a Clan player through and through, then the Wolves are weak, feeble, treacherous and un-Clan. If, however, you're something of a Phelan Kell yourself, somewhere halfway between the Inner Sphere and the Clan way - and if you're completely repulsed by Jaguar and Falcon brutality, arrogance, and systematic repression and degradation of any of their non-warrior castes, with the possible exception of techs. (2) There is no doubt whatsoever of who the Bad Guys are in this piece, mang - then the Wolves might very well be for you.

(1) This is a solid summary imo. History is written by the victors and in canon where it's pretty much IS centric, Ulric is painted as something of a hero, a grand strategist and leader of whats right as he helped the IS to a victory. If you strip away the rhetoric and look at what he actually did, then we can see him in a more pure light as I have tried to show.

(2) This is certainly true of the Jaguars, not so much the Falcons but your sentiment is spot on. The IS view paints both these Clans as the "bad guys" as they were the champions of the Crusader cause. Hence in a black vs white story line, these guys are the opposite of the white knights that Clan Wolf are depicted as.

However within the Clans, both were (until 3059 / 60 anyway) seen as strong Clan societies. They had feuds sure but many Clans followed their lead because they proved time and again in combat that they were stronger.

But sure, if you're a true Clanner you will see Ulric and the Wolves as the weak betrayers to Clan society and Kerensky's vision they proved themselves to be (although, Vlad is doing a fine job after 3058).

If you're an IS supporter then you'll see the Wolves as the guys who stood up to the juggernaught alone and did all they could against unimaginable odds to save the IS from annihilation.

[1453 R]

I see both the Wolves (in Exile, at least) and eventually the Ghost Bears and Nova Cats as being far more interesting than the rest of the Clans for precisely that reason, honestly. The fusion of Inner Sphere and Clan ideals form societies far worthier of respect than either one alone.

Let's face it, the majority of the Clans, the Crusader clans especially, are just an updated Mongol Horde. Uninterested in history, culture, or the advancement of society, save where that advancement leads to better ways to kill people. All they want is to tear down the Inner Sphere, discarding the good along with the bad, and in the cases of clans like the Jaguars, turn the entire place into a Sphere-wide living Hell for anyone not a Trueborn warrior. We hardly need to cover the Inner Sphere's ills

But when you fuse Clan discipline, honor, and self-sacrifice with the richness, inventiveness, and perseverance of the Inner Sphere, you get something truly worth following. The Wolves-in-Exile, the Ghost Bear Dominion, even the Nova Cat enclaves or the Diamond Sharks' wandering convoys...those societies which adapted to each other, merged together, and became something new were always more fun to read about than JAGUARS SMASH.

...I really don't like the damn Jaguars...

[Craig Steele]

1453 R, on 07 March 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

I see both the Wolves (in Exile, at least) and eventually the Ghost Bears and Nova Cats as being far more interesting than the rest of the Clans for precisely that reason, honestly. The fusion of Inner Sphere and Clan ideals form societies far worthier of respect than either one alone.

Let's face it, the majority of the Clans, the Crusader clans especially, are just an updated Mongol Horde. Uninterested in history, culture, or the advancement of society, save where that advancement leads to better ways to kill people. All they want is to tear down the Inner Sphere, discarding the good along with the bad, and in the cases of clans like the Jaguars, turn the entire place into a Sphere-wide living Hell for anyone not a Trueborn warrior. We hardly need to cover the Inner Sphere's ills

But when you fuse Clan discipline, honor, and self-sacrifice with the richness, inventiveness, and perseverance of the Inner Sphere, you get something truly worth following. The Wolves-in-Exile, the Ghost Bear Dominion, even the Nova Cat enclaves or the Diamond Sharks' wandering convoys...those societies which adapted to each other, merged together, and became something new were always more fun to read about than JAGUARS SMASH.

...I really don't like the damn Jaguars...

Yeah, I see your point but not sure I agree whole heartedly.

Many Clans are one dimensional (Jaguars, Blood Spirits, Ice Hellions) but so are Wolf-In-Exile (not a Clan, was abjured) just on opposite sides of the spectrum (whipping boy vs town sherrif). They are kinda predictable in many ways.

On the other hand some are quite complex (Jade Falcon, Fire Mandrills, Snow Ravens, Ghost Bears) and offer a variety of angles. I for one did not see the integration of FRR into Ghost Bear coming, they hadn't shown as diplomats before and they certainly were not welcoming of outsiders, but you knew they were capable of radical things as they demonstrated by moving everyone out of Clan Space.

[PaintedWolf]

I don't know, the Crusaders ended up promoting Warden ideas even better then the Wardens. They stopped Comstar from taking over, they have spread Clan Tech throughout the Inner Sphere, and the Clans have really grown stronger while in the Inner Sphere, and have at least survived. Had the Clans never left for the Inner Sphere, they could have been easily wiped out completely if a Reaving type war had spiraled out of control or something similar. Now they spread all over the Inner Sphere.

More importantly they have diversified, in far more varied ways. Clan Sea Fox for example is a completely space-based society. The Ghost Bears have formed a dual government. The Wolves have become Imperialists.

I especially like the idea of Elstars and Tank Warriors as well as Protomech pilots, after decades of stagnation the Clans are hyper-evolving, that to me is the most interesting part of the storyline so far.

That and the Reavers.

In any case, I think the Crusaders actually did some good for the Clans, and possibly even the Inner Sphere peoples in some ways. Diversity is strength.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 07 March 2014 - 06:57 PM.

[Gyrok]

You have to admit, even in clan culture, allowing someone to underbid in negotiations to the point they are handicapped is considered skilled negotiation by *every* clan.

You paint Ulric as a scumball, however, he was intelligent enough to accomplish the goal of the wardens and to coerce the other clans into playing the cards he wanted them to play.

Regardless of how you view it, militarily, Ulric was a BRILLIANT strategist and tactictian, likely far beyond the scope of any other clan Khan before or since.

Also, you say that Nicholas' view of what the clans were to do was twisted. Who are you to interpret what his vision was? All you have to go on is your crusader point of view, and material that is open to interpretation.

Additionally, if the Wolf Clan was so weak...why were they so dominant for so long? Why did they basically annihilate their invasion corridor? Why did they have the fewest losses of all the clans? Why were they the ONLY Clan awarded a decisive victory at Tukayyid?

You have no answers for those questions, merely speculation and happenstance to support your claims. Both sides of this argument are open to interpretation by those who will speculate. You say Crusaders were right, I say Wardens were right. Which of us is right or wrong? It is indeterminable. You can build a good argument for your side, I am not in the mood to continue constructing the argument for mine; however, the point remains...both sides can point to different sources for validity and the interpretation is up to the viewer based on their perspective.

It was a good read, and I can understand your perspective, though it does not match my own. This is where we agree to disagree.

[Craig Steele]

Gyrok, on 07 March 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

You have to admit, even in clan culture, allowing someone to underbid in negotiations to the point they are handicapped is considered skilled negotiation by *every* clan.

You paint Ulric as a scumball, however, he was intelligent enough to accomplish the goal of the wardens and to coerce the other clans into playing the cards he wanted them to play.

Regardless of how you view it, militarily, Ulric was a BRILLIANT strategist and tactictian, likely far beyond the scope of any other clan Khan before or since.

Also, you say that Nicholas' view of what the clans were to do was twisted. Who are you to interpret what his vision was? All you have to go on is your crusader point of view, and material that is open to interpretation.

Additionally, if the Wolf Clan was so weak...why were they so dominant for so long? Why did they basically annihilate their invasion corridor? Why did they have the fewest losses of all the clans? Why were they the ONLY Clan awarded a decisive victory at Tukayyid?

You have no answers for those questions, merely speculation and happenstance to support your claims. Both sides of this argument are open to interpretation by those who will speculate. You say Crusaders were right, I say Wardens were right. Which of us is right or wrong? It is indeterminable. You can build a good argument for your side, I am not in the mood to continue constructing the argument for mine; however, the point remains...both sides can point to different sources for validity and the interpretation is up to the viewer based on their perspective.

It was a good read, and I can understand your perspective, though it does not match my own. This is where we agree to disagree.

So firstly, I'm not painting Ulric as a scumball, I'm calling him out as a traitor. He betrayed the Clans majority (and binding) desire to invade the Inner Sphere and take Terra. He betrayed his own Clan but subverting it's long held successful practices with stooges and jobs for the boys appointments. And he used his Clans military strength to persecute a War against the Jade Falcons because it suited him.

All canon, just the excuses taken away. Within Clan space, Ulric and the Wolf Clan were regarded as traitors hence why the Abjuration of Clan Wolf was passed by the Grand Council.

Ulric was no grand strategist? Your comments read that because Wolf did comparably better than other Clans therefore Clan Wolf was superior. That disregards that Clan Wolf had the easiest of Invasion corridors, both its flanks protected so it had less requirement for garrison than the JF's and SJ's. Clan Wolf fought primarily against the weakest militry force in the corridor, and surprise surprise they won with less losses against an inferior opponent.

Lets do a quick comparison of the first wave attacks.

Clan Jade Falcon attacked 9 worlds, 7 of which were defended by regiment or RCT sized defenders
Clan Wolf attacked 10 worlds, 3 of which were defended by regiment of RCT sized defenders
Clan Ghost Bear attacked 5 worlds, 1 of which was defended by regiment sized defenders
Clan Smoke Jaguar attacked 10 worlds, 3 of which were defended by regiment sized defenders.

So what do we see here, that the FRR had virtually no significant forces defending their systems (what forces they did have were largely C grade mercenaries)

You can't seriously be submitting that because Clan Wolf overran the weakest of opponents while other Clans protected them from any counter attack that implies Ulric was a "Brilliant Strategist". In any case, the strategy was laid down the Il Khan and so even if you did adopt that view, the credit for it belongs to Leo Showers, not Ulric.

I'll give Ulric his due, he was a good administrator. He could organise logistics and ensured the fighting troops had sufficient supplies, something the other Clans struggled to fully appreciate. But that hardly consitutes brilliance.

I never said anything about Nicholas vision being twisted, only that Ulric's interpretation of it was twisted from what every other Clan believed. It is canon that every Clan believed they would return to the Inner Sphere one day, Nicholas told them they would. Both sides of view are open to interpretation, thats why there was debate but there was never any doubt that the Clans intended to return to the Inner Sphere. Never did Nicholas say that the Clans were not to return to the Inner Sphere or that they would be stopped in their return. Yet Ulric set out to do exactly that.

If you read the history of the Tukayyid battle you would see that Ulric was quite open to his abuse of his position to ensure Clan Wolfs success. As Il Khan, he instructed Natasha to (basically) loose bids so Clan Wolf would not only go last but would also have the softest targets. Ulric openly used the other clans to ensure Clan Wolf had a better chance. Remember, his position as Il Khan was to ensure the Clans won Terra, instead he was feeding the other Clans into a mincing machine so that Clan Wolf would not get hurt too badly.

We will never know what would have happened had Clan Wolf gone in first but we do know this from the source books. On day one of Clan Wolf's 2 days expedition Comstar had fought them to a stand still, mhm thats right, pg 51 Clan Wolf Source book reads "The Com Guards had achieved a great but costly victory...." At the end of day 2 Clan Wolf was still engaged and fighting "the final battle in the mountains.", which is related as ".....Even with this advantage, what little ground was taken was won at heavy cost, Khan Garth Radick was slain....." which tells us that Clan Wolf far from won the day convincingly. They were judged to have won their battle by virtue of not being forced off planet as most other Clans were but had they gone in first, that is something that may well have been in doubt. Had the battle been allowed to continue another day it may well have been a different outcome. But why did the fight not end definitively. Well because Ulric called it quits and declared the battle over, he conceded on behalf of all the Clans.

So right here at Tukayyid, the cornerstone of your view that Ulric and Clan Wolf were superior we see an Il Khan openly telling his Khan to lose bids so that Clan Wolf can get intel on the Comstar forces and so that Clan Wolf gets the easier targets. We see Clan Wolf doing marginally better than some Clans on their landing day but defeated none the less by Comstar's. On the second day of the battle when it was to be decided in a final battle they gained a little ground at a high cost before Ulric steps in and declares Comstar the victors, basically protecting his Wolf Warriors from further loss and any chance of victory at the same moment.

I have all the answers you want because I don't need to build a case. It's all there in canon. I'm not making anything up. If you take away the light of bias and look objectivily at what Ulric was doing, he was using his authority as a Khan and then Il Khan to pursue his personal unsanctioned agenda opposite to the one he was entrusted to.

He betrayed the trust shown in him by his fellow Wolves and fellow Khans and hence, is a traitor.

[KuroNyra]

*Watch the debate with great attention.*
Please just stay polite guy's. I didn't meant to start a 20 years flames wars. é_é

[Mordin Ashe]

Doesn't an argumented fight with carefuly chosen words deserve a better label than flame war? I for one welcome the discussion where noone is being insulted on personal level and the debate is about what we all can read, thus potentialy interesting for us all.

[KuroNyra]

Mordin Ashe, on 08 March 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

Doesn't an argumented fight with carefuly chosen words deserve a better label than flame war? I for one welcome the discussion where noone is being insulted on personal level and the debate is about what we all can read, thus potentialy interesting for us all.

In the moment, it's a very nice debate. But the line can be crossed VERY quickly. Already saw that. (On a debate on about how was the best Enterprise Captain. :3 )

[CyclonerM]

1453 R, on 07 March 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

If you're a Clan player through and through, then the Wolves are weak, feeble, treacherous and un-Clan. If, however, you're something of a Phelan Kell yourself, somewhere halfway between the Inner Sphere and the Clan way - and if you're completely repulsed by Jaguar and Falcon brutality, arrogance, and systematic repression and degradation of any of their non-warrior castes, with the possible exception of techs. There is no doubt whatsoever of who the Bad Guys are in this piece, mang - then the Wolves might very well be for you.

I mostly agree with your point , being a "Phelan Kell" myself, but remember there are Warden Clans and Warden "true warriors" among the Clans who may not have regarded the Wolves'actions as treachery and cowardice.

KuroNyra, on 08 March 2014 - 03:41 AM, said:

*Watch the debate with great attention.*
I didn't meant to start a 20 years flames wars. é_é

Too late. This argument has started about 20 years ago

[1453 R]

Frankly, I don't see the Wolves that way myself.

Folks call out Ulric as a bad fighter, a bad general, a bad negotiator, a traitor and a criminal, but you know what I see? You know why Clan Wolf was successful in its corridor, successful on Tukayyid, and just successful in general before post-Ulric fallout tore it apart?

Because Ulric kerensky was the only Khan of any Clan to recognize the Inner Sphere for what it was, instead of simply dismissing it as a horde of savages.

Ulric was the first Khan to adapt to the way the Inner Sphere fought, as evinced by his bidding tactics on Tukayyid. Yes, he had Natasha overbid and slip into last place...because he knew that the last-place slot was the most likely to win. Well, and for other reasons, but it stands that Ulric, first of all, recognized the Inner Sphere as a place worth protecting and stewarding, instead of simply burning to the ground the way every other Clan was apt to do. Certainly he wanted to be in charge of it, but Ulric recognized decades before any other Clan Khan did that the Clans' dreams of, and let me strip away the pretense here, as well:

"Taking Terra, executing every last individiaul of Amaris, Davion, Marik, Liao, Kurita, or Steiner descent, destroying every trace of the Inner Sphere's culture and replacing it with subjugation to the Clan warrior caste, and calling it 'a new Star League'."

...were never going to happen. The Clans simply didn't have the resources needed to put the entire Inner Sphere under their boot heel, and after three centuries of warfare, the Successor States were also never going to give up their identities and become good little chattel-caste serfs to whichever clan had last won their world's Trial of Possession. Their identities are practically all that the people of the Inner Sphere had left.

The Crusaders pulled the trigger too soon, and Ulric knew it. The Warden notion of unifying the Inner Sphere beneath their rule via protecting it from a deadly outside threat might have worked...for a time. After all, did not the Inner Sphere unite again into a new Star League and pool its resources to defend itself against the deadly outside threat of the Clan Invasion itself?

Heh...you see a traitor to the Clan way in Ulric, and I can't really argue that one with you. But what I will argue all day long is that Ulric was only a traitor. He was a man who recognized an unwinnable scenario when he saw one - the only man who recognized that unwinnable scenario for what it was - and did his best to protect his people from its worst ravages. The Crusaders got their wish; Ulric's intent was merely to show them the reasoning behind that most ancient of sayings:

"Be careful what you wish for."

[Craig Steele]

1453 R, on 08 March 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Frankly, I don't see the Wolves that way myself.

Folks call out Ulric as a bad fighter, a bad general, a bad negotiator, a traitor and a criminal, but you know what I see? You know why Clan Wolf was successful in its corridor, successful on Tukayyid, and just successful in general before post-Ulric fallout tore it apart?

Because Ulric kerensky was the only Khan of any Clan to recognize the Inner Sphere for what it was, instead of simply dismissing it as a horde of savages. (1)

Ulric was the first Khan to adapt to the way the Inner Sphere fought (2), as evinced by his bidding tactics on Tukayyid. Yes, he had Natasha overbid and slip into last place...because he knew that the last-place slot was the most likely to win. Well, and for other reasons, but it stands that Ulric, first of all, recognized the Inner Sphere as a place worth protecting and stewarding, instead of simply burning to the ground the way every other Clan was apt to do. Certainly he wanted to be in charge of it, but Ulric recognized decades before any other Clan Khan (3) did that the Clans' dreams of, and let me strip away the pretense here, as well:

"Taking Terra, executing every last individiaul of Amaris, Davion, Marik, Liao, Kurita, or Steiner descent, destroying every trace of the Inner Sphere's culture and replacing it with subjugation to the Clan warrior caste, and calling it 'a new Star League'."

...were never going to happen. The Clans simply didn't have the resources needed to put the entire Inner Sphere under their boot heel (4), and after three centuries of warfare, the Successor States were also never going to give up their identities and become good little chattel-caste serfs to whichever clan had last won their world's Trial of Possession. Their identities are practically all that the people of the Inner Sphere had left.

The Crusaders pulled the trigger too soon, and Ulric knew it. The Warden notion of unifying the Inner Sphere beneath their rule via protecting it from a deadly outside threat might have worked...for a time. After all, did not the Inner Sphere unite again into a new Star League and pool its resources to defend itself against the deadly outside threat of the Clan Invasion itself (5)?

Heh...you see a traitor to the Clan way in Ulric, and I can't really argue that one with you. But what I will argue all day long is that Ulric was only a traitor. He was a man who recognized an unwinnable scenario when he saw one - the only man who recognized that unwinnable scenario for what it was - and did his best to protect his people from its worst ravages (6). The Crusaders got their wish; Ulric's intent was merely to show them the reasoning behind that most ancient of sayings:

"Be careful what you wish for."

LOL, I'm not trying to convert anyone, just trying to show that without any bias or excuses, Ulric and Clan Wolf look very different to the "painted picture". People will still have their favourites I get that, so do I .

(1) Theres a bit of truth to this statement, IS was largely dismissed by the Clans. IDK about recognised, canon isn't specific, but Ulric certainly prepared for the possibility more than others.

(2) Another way to say this is that he was the first to abandon the Clan way of fighting and adopt less honourable practices. Again, it goes to the core of what I am presenting which is that Ulric steered Clan Wolf away from Clan culture and in many ways, brought dishonour and shame upon Clan Wolf.

(3) Not too sure abut your source here. He certainly effected that once the Invasion started, but he didn't present prior to the Invasion vote as anything other than a model Warden in my source books?

(4) This I disagree with. The Clans were going fine Invasion wise with the only real concerns being ammunition consumption and garrison forces. If Ulric had have commited his logistical skills to ensuring supplies and not committed the reserve Clans as he did to promote competition within the Clans (ie, Nova Cat to Falcon sector, Vipers to Jaguar instead of what he did) there is no immediate reason to think the Invasion could not have kept on keeping on at the same rate. Which would entail by early 3053 at the latest they were contesting Terra. I think the Clans looked pretty good and everything the IS threw at them got gobbled up. Whether they won Terra off Comstar is open to debate, but they certainly would be knocking on the door.

(5) This is kinda redundant don't you think? The Star Legue that formed was more of an alliance of convenience / urgency against a common foe. To some degree it was inevitable that the Clans would face united opposition but had Ulric not betrayed the Clans purpose (ie, conquer IS) there would have been little motivation for Star Legue to reform in this format. Marik certainly had no interest in the Clans nor did Cap Con until they found out "hey, if we get taken out you go too". Put it like this, prior to Jamie Wolf Outreach conference and then Tukayyid and Comstar's disclosure, Marik wasn't champing at the bit to help out Fedcom. Cap Con still didn't after even that (although Romano was still carrying a pretty big chip around so....)

And the Star Legue was only nominated by Katrina as a political tool for her to gain IS domination, not out of any desire to defeat the common foe. Kudo's to Victor for turning it around, but it was hardly something all the Star Lords were calling out for to defeat the threat the Clans posed.

(6) Can't agree with this one at all. Ulric burnt most of his warriors of Wolf Clan and left his civilans horribly exposed by pursuing his personal agenda (remember, Ulric was the only Clanner in canon who on his own intiative wanted to save the IS from the Clans until Trent appears). He also burnt a lot of Ghost Bear (fellow Warden) and Crusader warriors with his betrayal's as Il Khan. He certainly didn't do what he did out of any nobility for his 'people'

[1453 R]

In regards to point 4:

I didn't necessarily say the Clans couldn't have retaken Terra. In fact, they almost certainly would have if the Invasion had gone how the Crusaders had desired it. But the thing is this - the early days of the Invasion, with the Clans' lightning advance through completely unprepared garrison forces, was the ideal place for the Clans'...frankly, junk ways of fighting a war. At some point they were going to have to slow down, install garrisons and try to keep what they'd taken.

That's where the impossibility lies. A small force of supremely powerful warriors, moving with breathtaking speed, could overturn the Inner Sphere, and very well might have if Ulric and Comstar hadn't colluded to cork them up, but the Clans would never have been able to keep up the momentum. It is always orders of magnitude easier to take than to hold, and even with looting from what they'd taken, the Clans didn't have the resources, or even the fundamental mindsets, to keep what they'd taken. They were pretty much entirely unprepared for Spheroid guerrilla resistance and would have eventually found that their entire toumans were tasked to capacity pissing out brushfires in their various occupation zones. Heh...you can only make Trueborns so quickly, after all, and a Trueborn killed by a filthy terrorist IED is just as dead as one slain in honorable one-on-one combat.

As for point 5...that's the entire point. By the time the Clans turned up, the Star League was a lost dream. The Successor States were too splintered and divided, old hatreds grown too deep. Even the threat of losing their entire way of life only unified them for a few years, and even then only as a political ploy to try and shock the Clans. Unity cannot be imposed on the Inner Sphere from without, as the Clans wished to do. My argument is that Ulric realized that before anyone else did and then did what he could with the situation at hand. Of course, my information comes only from the novels as I was too young to get into sourcebooks back in the day, but hey. Still doing better than some folks!

As for the other points, I can see your arguments. Though I point out, once again, that the Clans in general didn't give two rat farts about civilians and, so far as my own memory and sources inform me, considered them little more than necessary baggage, only good for producing the resources the warrior caste needed to be the True Shining Jewels of Humanity or some such nonsense. In that, you can't hold Ulric any more or less accountable for his behavior than you would any other Clan, eh?

[Craig Steele]

1453 R, on 08 March 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

In regards to point 4:

I didn't necessarily say the Clans couldn't have retaken Terra. In fact, they almost certainly would have if the Invasion had gone how the Crusaders had desired it. But the thing is this - the early days of the Invasion, with the Clans' lightning advance through completely unprepared garrison forces, was the ideal place for the Clans'...frankly, junk ways of fighting a war. At some point they were going to have to slow down, install garrisons and try to keep what they'd taken.

That's where the impossibility lies. A small force of supremely powerful warriors, moving with breathtaking speed, could overturn the Inner Sphere, and very well might have if Ulric and Comstar hadn't colluded to cork them up, but the Clans would never have been able to keep up the momentum. It is always orders of magnitude easier to take than to hold, and even with looting from what they'd taken, the Clans didn't have the resources, or even the fundamental mindsets, to keep what they'd taken. They were pretty much entirely unprepared for Spheroid guerrilla resistance and would have eventually found that their entire toumans were tasked to capacity pissing out brushfires in their various occupation zones. Heh...you can only make Trueborns so quickly, after all, and a Trueborn killed by a filthy terrorist IED is just as dead as one slain in honorable one-on-one combat.

As for point 5...that's the entire point. By the time the Clans turned up, the Star League was a lost dream. (1) The Successor States were too splintered and divided, old hatreds grown too deep. Even the threat of losing their entire way of life only unified them for a few years, and even then only as a political ploy to try and shock the Clans. Unity cannot be imposed on the Inner Sphere from without, as the Clans wished to do. My argument is that Ulric realized that before anyone else did and then did what he could with the situation at hand. Of course, my information comes only from the novels as I was too young to get into sourcebooks back in the day, but hey. Still doing better than some folks!

As for the other points, I can see your arguments. Though I point out, once again, that the Clans in general didn't give two rat farts about civilians (2) and, so far as my own memory and sources inform me, considered them little more than necessary baggage, only good for producing the resources the warrior caste needed to be the True Shining Jewels of Humanity or some such nonsense. In that, you can't hold Ulric any more or less accountable for his behavior than you would any other Clan, eh?

(1) I suspect the Davion / Steiner boys might disagree. Kurita was living on borrowed time, they could not possibly keep up with Fedcom production and were clearly in cross hairs. Hanse was not going to be cought twice by a bluff. Liao was impotent and really had little impact and Marik was still arguing with itself. The Star League was probably closer to being reformed with Victor as its first Lord than in the last 300 years.

(2) Broadly there is some basis for this, but Clans also hold to a very strong concept of unity. They don't ignore or imperil their civilians unless its for the requirements of a higher caste (and even then unless its the Warrior Caste its unlikely to happen). Certainly Clan Wolf had no history of mistreating its civilians, it is painted as one of the more even tempered Clans in canon ('the good guy') so for Ulric to expose the entirity of Clan Wolf pursuing his personal agenda, it's a marked change (and another pointer to his betrayal)

I sometimes wonder if Ulric had of been committed to the Clan cause instead of activily hurting it, what the options were. For example, as Il Khan he could have brought forward more clans trial or not for the invasion. It would be as simple as "We're not on plan, I am ordering more forward" and brought more Clans in flanking positions.

Imagine if he let Snow Raven for example, which had the naval assets to enable a longer supply chain to hit the Lyran state another 200 light years around the flank. Their ground touman would be less so they could not take the Invading Clans glory of reaching Terra but from a Lyran / Fedcom point of view, they were barely holding one front. Cloud Cobra or Star Adder the other side. The Blood Spirits could have been offered pre emptive batchalls for planets to reduce garrison requirements, they had always responded well to 'gifts' in the past.

In 3051 when Ulric was appointed as Il Khan the IS was a house of cards and a new leader 'should' have been looking to stamp his name all over the campaign. They had plenty of time and intel to review what they had right and wrong and the opportunity was there for the taking.

[CyclonerM]

The other Clans were trying in every way to bid out Clan Wolf instead of trying to understand HOW Ulric managed to keep fighting so quickly with little rest and without supplies shortage.

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

The other Clans were trying in every way to bid out Clan Wolf instead of trying to understand HOW Ulric managed to keep fighting so quickly with little rest and without supplies shortage.

Well no, not really.

Leo did engineer some scenarios where Wolf and Bear shared borders which was partly Leo being a pill and partly Ghost Bears desire to catch up after they failed early on.

But broadly each clan had its corridor and there was no bidding across the lines.

The only time Wolf's supply advantage was really shown was when Ulric deviated from the Il khans strategy (surprise surprise) and launched the Wolf Clans 4th wave several before it was supposed to go ahead. As the Wolf source book specifies, all 4 Invading Khans had agreed to a rest period after every wave but it was not compulsary. Ulric launched the 4th wave as soon as the 3rd finished but neglected to tell the other Khans what he was doing.

What it did was create a salient that then required the other Clans to rush their assaults / preperations to protect Wolfs flanks and this was a key driver which triggered the Kurultai at Radstadt, Leo basically wanted to pull Ulric's head in (off?)

We all know what happened next of course and so there was never an opportunity for the other Khans to even assess how as the assault was overtaken by Ulric being elected as Il Khan.

[CyclonerM]

Exactly! And why, instead of complaining, they did not ask themselves "How can he stage another series of assaults without get some rest for his troops and without stretching the supply lines? Maybe we should learn from him".

The same for Tukayyid. Instead of saying "The IlKhan was right, we should have prepared better for a long campaign instead in arrogantly believe in a quick victory" they started complaining again.

Envious Khans who could not learn from their mistakes, ergo i say blind Crusaders.

But i believe we already talked about all of this

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 09 March 2014 - 03:27 AM, said:

Exactly! And why, instead of complaining, they did not ask themselves "How can he stage another series of assaults without get some rest for his troops and without stretching the supply lines? Maybe we should learn from him".

The same for Tukayyid. Instead of saying "The IlKhan was right, we should have prepared better for a long campaign instead in arrogantly believe in a quick victory" they started complaining again.

Envious Khans who could not learn from their mistakes, ergo i say blind Crusaders.

But i believe we already talked about all of this

Yeah we have talked about it , and the answers are easy.

They didn't ask how Wolf launched a 4th wave early because they were all trying to work out who the next Il Khan would be and well to be honest, why would they ask? No one asked about the internal workings of another Clan, they just judged what the outcome was.

And to be frank, Ulric's logistics skills weren't exactly rocket science. He basically spared a few techs / merchants and gave them instructions to scrounge everything useful from IS planets now, rather than what other clans were doing which was "when the techs and merchants catch up we'll see what there is".

So he wasn't doing anything unique, just doing it quicker.

As for Tukayyid, the source books I have don't mention anything about Ulric coaching the other clans on logistics, it reads as they ran their own show. To be frank, as Il Khan he could have ORDERED certain things if he thought they were warranted but he was more concerned with Natasha losing all the bids so Wolf Clan would get the easiest run.

And it may not have been a major factor anyway.

Novacat fought for 'several days" without ammunition before being forced off planet (they were the Clan that stayed on planet the longest according to these sources, the Com Guard just couldn't shake them) and Wolf Clan itself ran short of ammo. The Com Guards recognised this the first night and launched raids on their remaining logistic dumps. So even if you accept that Ulric had better logistic understanding, he still under estimated for Tukayyid (or his Khans ignored him? they certainly ran short either way)