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#101 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 06:54 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

And for the Imperium, they are the LAW!!11!! side of that coin - with the Chaos Gods at one point having stood as much for freedom as the chaotic/insane bondage thing most of the worshipers seem to have going on.


Tzeentch still stands for that in a way, he is the god of hope and freed minds in a way. Although his way of doing it usually ends with tentacles and bird feathers in places you don't want either in, on, at, or near.

However, though they stood for some principles that we might deem "good", they are in no way, really good. They want to om nom nom all our souls, and ****/torture/murder (in no particular order, and possibly simultaneously) everything in the galaxy.

All but Slaanesh, had at least one redeeming quality. Slaanesh can also be said to stand for freedom, but .... well, it's not the kind you want, trust me.

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

He is also easily the easiest to put in as a representative for the games - much harder to write a decent plot with Tzeentch as the villian, or a non-AO rated game with Slaneesh (if only because that would be the most easily recognized aspect of the god of excess)



I would love to see the meeting pitch for that.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 April 2014 - 06:55 PM.


#102 Davers

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 06:55 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 06:46 PM, said:

Each Chaos God has 2 faces - (and this is going to be non-exact because I came into Warhammer after this started getting dropped)

Khorne is the Chaos God of violence, but also honor
Nurgle is the Chaos God of disease, but also family (?)

One of my first introductions to the series was a guy who played an honorable Khornate champion crew (or something like that) in Warhammer fantasy TT - and was quite upset when the latter sourcebooks stopped talking about that side at all, and started emphasizing more the more negative traits.

Of course, that was back before I had a clue what he was talking about, and he moved out of state (which means a lot more up here :unsure:) before I was really ready to listen to him. :D

Yeah, Chaos Gods weren't really Evil Gods. They were much more Moorcock-ish They had redeeming qualities as well. Tzeentch was also a god of hope and Nurgle a God of perseverance. But these were deemphasized with each new edition.

Fun Fact: Warhammer's current meta is Space Marines. In the last large tournament more people played straight Space Marines than the last 9 armies combined.

#103 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 06:57 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

I would love to see the meeting pitch for that.

The Tzeench one or Slaneesh?

View PostDavers, on 23 April 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Fun Fact: Warhammer's current meta is Space Marines. In the last large tournament more people played straight Space Marines than the last 9 armies combined.

I thought the SM were always high (if not top) tier?

Edited by Shar Wolf, 23 April 2014 - 06:57 PM.


#104 Davers

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:00 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

The Tzeench one or Slaneesh?

I thought the SM were always high (if not top) tier?

Eldar and Tao were always very close, but now SMs have really taken the lead. Least played army? Blood Angels.

#105 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:01 PM

View PostDavers, on 23 April 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Least played army? Blood Angels.

Wonder why?

#106 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:04 PM

View PostDavers, on 23 April 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Yeah, Chaos Gods weren't really Evil Gods. They were much more Moorcock-ish They had redeeming qualities as well. Tzeentch was also a god of hope and Nurgle a God of perseverance. But these were deemphasized with each new edition.

Fun Fact: Warhammer's current meta is Space Marines. In the last large tournament more people played straight Space Marines than the last 9 armies combined.


I don't think Nurgle was Perseverance, that would be against his other traits in a way, he's the god of entropy, finality, and decay. He wishes to protect his children from those elements, and that's why he makes them tough with his plagues, however, he is not actually the god of perseverance, as far as I recall.

Also, the meta currently has been focused on the least amount of pie plates, and the most long range shots that can't be dodged so far. In the tourney in Madison I saw more Nids, Tau and guards (both loyal and chaos) than any other army.

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

The Tzeench one or Slaneesh?

Slaanesh

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

I thought the SM were always high (if not top) tier?

They still are, but honestly right now, the other armies can easilly out-strip them, especially when someone decides to play Necrons and kills your landraider with 1 block of warriors in the first shooting phase.

In apocalypse SMs drop down as Nids, Guard, and Crons just kill everything.

View PostDavers, on 23 April 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Least played army? Blood Angels.


Yeah, they really nerfed the Blood Angels. However, they still have some good unique units (bit over priced to be honest), but the chapter/legion tactics can make up for it.

#107 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:06 PM

One of these days I will have the money to start into the TT game :unsure:

#108 Davers

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:09 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Wonder why?

They speculate it is based on the 'Battle Brothers rule mechanic'. But I haven't played in a few years so I am unfamiliar with it.

Posted Image

#109 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:12 PM

View PostShar Wolf, on 23 April 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

One of these days I will have the money to start into the TT game :unsure:

My life's goal. I still only have that 600-700 point battle force for now.

View PostDavers, on 23 April 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

They speculate it is based on the 'Battle Brothers rule mechanic'. But I haven't played in a few years so I am unfamiliar with it.

Posted Image


Ok, more sisters were played than Blood Angels? What is wrong with people? I love the sisters, but GW has been nerfing the hell out of them for the last 3 consecutive editions.

Now if it's the battle brothers rule, THAT I can understand. SM and IG can ally with almost everyone (except Nids, and Necrons). However Blood Angels can be desperate allies with Crons. Which should make them better than plenty of armies.


Also, Davers, I just noticed your signature. I really wanted to run a campaign of Dungeons the Dragoning 40K, in my college. Too bad we never found the time for it.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 April 2014 - 07:13 PM.


#110 Tesunie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:18 PM

I thought Dark Angels would be bottom. Huh. Seen as they gutted the poor thing, and then made just about everything that a Dark Angel codex could do... the normal Space Marine codex can do better...

Kinda surprised that Blood Angels was bottom. But it looks like it was a close match for bottom rank. Blood Angels just have too many conflicting options, and then their best play style (or at least what I did with them) was killed when you couldn't place everything in reserve, but had to keep 50% on the table (with the exception of drop pods). So now, heroic Intervention of some Vanguard Veterans with a bunch of drop pod Sternguard and... other marines... can't happen. As the Vanguard (not in a drop pod) would have to be placed on the table...

As far as Necrons go... there is a reason I think they should have given vehicles an armor save. Say, +3 armor save? Prevent most small arm fire from taking a vehicle out, but anything anti-vehicle would still cut through and damage it... (Or at least double the hull points otherwise.)

View PostIraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

My life's goal. I still only have that 600-700 point battle force for now.


Anyone up for a game of Kill Teams? (Still able to play.)

#111 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:20 PM

View PostTesunie, on 23 April 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

I thought Dark Angels would be bottom. Huh. Seen as they gutted the poor thing, and then made just about everything that a Dark Angel codex could do... the normal Space Marine codex can do better...

Kinda surprised that Blood Angels was bottom. But it looks like it was a close match for bottom rank. Blood Angels just have too many conflicting options, and then their best play style (or at least what I did with them) was killed when you couldn't place everything in reserve, but had to keep 50% on the table (with the exception of drop pods). So now, heroic Intervention of some Vanguard Veterans with a bunch of drop pod Sternguard and... other marines... can't happen. As the Vanguard (not in a drop pod) would have to be placed on the table...

As far as Necrons go... there is a reason I think they should have given vehicles an armor save. Say, +3 armor save? Prevent most small arm fire from taking a vehicle out, but anything anti-vehicle would still cut through and damage it... (Or at least double the hull points otherwise.)


Dark angels can field termies as troops. Ever seen an army deploy 100 termies? the DAs can do that. That's why they are still good. Also the ravenwing is just full of crazy stuff, especially the knights division, those squads can be worth it.

It is also quite possible that the reason SMs are played so much is Smashfucker, it's probably the biggest piece of cheese since .... well... Dairy first was invented.

Here, read this


As far as vehicle armor goes, I'd say no need for that. Only weapons with high strength ratings can hurt vehicles. Which the necrons have by default, and it's the only thing keeping them in the game to be honest. Without the ability to glance big vehicles the crons lose out on most of their vehicle killing power.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 April 2014 - 07:22 PM.


#112 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:23 PM

View PostTesunie, on 23 April 2014 - 07:18 PM, said:

Anyone up for a game of Kill Teams? (Still able to play.)


Man I wish I could do that. Never got to play Kill Teams before.

#113 Tesunie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:31 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:


Dark angels can field termies as troops. Ever seen an army deploy 100 termies? the DAs can do that. That's why they are still good. Also the ravenwing is just full of crazy stuff, especially the knights division, those squads can be worth it.

It is also quite possible that the reason SMs are played so much is Smashfucker, it's probably the biggest piece of cheese since .... well... Dairy first was invented.

Here, read this


As far as vehicle armor goes, I'd say no need for that. Only weapons with high strength ratings can hurt vehicles. Which the necrons have by default, and it's the only thing keeping them in the game to be honest. Without the ability to glance big vehicles the crons lose out on most of their vehicle killing power.


I'm an old codex Dark Angel player. I went from winning almost every match I play (with a combo of Death and Ravenwing). Now? I haven't won a single match yet. The termies are over priced. The Bikers are overprices. Etc.

I've played the all termie army... and died very quickly. A few plasma cannons. A few Plasma rifles/guns. A rail gun or two... (my tendency to roll 5 ones when making 10 saves, breaking every known law of statistics and sanity in the process). I did worse with a termy army than with a Ravenwing army... I find them best to play like normal marines. But then, you might as well play normal marines... (Though I have been tempted to try them again. I'm a gluten for punishment.)

Best combo I can see so far is getting a Chapter Master, with a power shield generator, and shove him into a Baneblade (any of them) with troop transport. Give that superheavy a +3 invulnerable save... (Then place a few tech marines in there too, and keep fixing it up as it takes damage...)

Otherwise, next best was taking a night shroud (or two), sam, bikers, a command squad with a banner of destruction, and some land raider redeemers. Salvo 2/4 bolters (always 4), twinlinked... with the banner shoved into the land raider, and the Night Shroud providing better cover saves... (I normally take two landraiders, encase one goes BOOM.)

And all this, and I normally still die with little to show for it... (I've tried a lot of different things with the DA. However, I wasn't impressed with the release day "OOPS, we gave you a messed up codex, here are a bunch of erratas on the book from the start".

(I think I shall have to give them a try again though. I still like them, but everything remains too expensive...)

#114 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:34 PM

Well, if you got fish dice, then I'm sorry. There is no cure for that condition. Also, have you been fielding the Dark Angel Fliers? Including the Darkshroud speeder flier?

#115 Tesunie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:36 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:


Man I wish I could do that. Never got to play Kill Teams before.


Kill teams are easy. Come up with a roster of between 100-250 points (or more, player/story/objective depending). You play each member of the squad as a separate squad (they can all move separate and can all shoot at different targets, as well as don't transfer wounds to other squad members). You can either play like it's a normal game otherwise (normally no vehicles permitted, as it's a "stealth mission" kinda thought), or give it a twist. You could have one side larger than the other, and one side might have to protect a single model (like the Tau having to protect an Ethereal). You could be trying to sneak into a station and gather intel, trying not to be spot (roll an awareness check, you can make it up, or follow rules in the 4th edition book (I think)).

That's one of the great things with Warhammer. You can create your own fluff. Your own battles. Your own objectives and story. (No one has yet tried half of my crazy ideas, even though they like them.)

#116 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:39 PM

I would love to try some of your thoughts, my friends are always up for something new. We have eldar, crons, SMs, IGs, Orks, and Deldar.

#117 Tesunie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:41 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

Well, if you got fish dice, then I'm sorry. There is no cure for that condition. Also, have you been fielding the Dark Angel Fliers? Including the Darkshroud speeder flier?


Flier? Nephilim Jetfighter mostly. If I take normal marines, I tend to take missile launchers with flak missiles for some skyfire. (I love how the Darktalon looks!)

I have played with the Darkshroud... it only is marginally helpful. It's a lot of points for only a small boost to defense. (Espesually with the amount of "cut through cover for cheap" they've been adding into all the newer codexes, except for the Dark Angels really...)

My problem with the Dark Angel codex has been the cost of everything. Most everything feels overprices that is unique to itself. Then the second part is that most of your best stuff encourages "bubble around the ...." tactics, perfect for enemy templates. (My best match I lost, because I grouped back together a turn too soon and got templates.)
I find Dark Angels are a razor edge codex. One mistake, and it's all basically ends for you.


Fish dice. Yes. I like that. I roll a lot of ones. I feel so sorry for them. No one else wants them. So, I take them under my own wing... :(

#118 Tesunie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:48 PM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 23 April 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

I would love to try some of your thoughts, my friends are always up for something new. We have eldar, crons, SMs, IGs, Orks, and Deldar.


If you really wish, I can always post up some of my game missions up here... :( (If I can find my notes again.) Some of them are designed for a lot of small matches going on at once. Others are for a slowly grown story driven campaign that gets bigger as it goes on...

#119 IraqiWalker

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

View PostTesunie, on 23 April 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:


If you really wish, I can always post up some of my game missions up here... :( (If I can find my notes again.) Some of them are designed for a lot of small matches going on at once. Others are for a slowly grown story driven campaign that gets bigger as it goes on...

Sounds awesome. I would love to see those. Pretty sure this Warhammer thread won't be derailed by Warhammer missions.

#120 Tesunie

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:21 PM

You said you had a Tyranid player? Here's a concept:
Bio-adaptation: Choose a weapon type. Excluding any special rules, all tyranids will retain their armor saves against that type of weapon.
Ex: Pulse (Rifles, Burst cannons, carbines, etc)
Plasma (Rifles, ion acc., plasma cannon, guns.)
Missile (Missile pod, smart missile, missile launcher, etc.)
Bolter (norma, pistol heavy)
(This rule wouldn't ignore rending, etc.)
OR
All Tyranids retain armor saves against the weapon that caused the most wounds to it the previous turn.


Tau Kill Team Mission:
Crisis "Stealth" suit testing. The Stealth moduals take up 2 support slots (could be one support slot) for a crisis suit that takes it.
Objective: Kill all stealth crisis suits before game ends.
Forces: Tau player has 3 stealth crisis suits (one team). They have to pay for the crisis suits, but the stealth attribute is free. (If you feel it is fair, they may be able to play with these rules for 15-30 points a model that takes the upgrade. Could be useful for a campaign like match style, if they succeed.)


Play for multiple people with various forces, and lots of table space.
- Set up several tables. At least one will have an artillery piece able to be captured and controlled.
- Every table as several capture points on them.
- Each player is assigned a table. They then create an army roster.
- Once the army rosters are created, deploy by normal means. However, each player may determine where and how much of their forces are on each table. (But their models will be controlled by the player at that table, for ease of game play.)
- Units in reserve may deep strike/arrive on the field to any table needed.
- If players wish to move models from table to table, they must transport them by flier. AKA: The flyer takes on the passengers, and then leaves play and goes into ongoing reserves. (Reserves probably should come in on turn two automatically. Discuss it with the group, but agree on models that provide a bonus to reserve rolls to possibly be able to make 1d3 units from reserve from in on turn one instead. Things that can delay reserves can do the opposite, preventing 1d3 units from coming in on turn two and forcing them to come in a turn later. Could be helpful to slow down reinforcements later into the game.)
- Anything with a range longer than 72 inches may shoot at targets on other tables (such as the Basilisk, seeker missiles and that nice artillery piece you have on a map).

Objective: Capture and hold as many objectives as possible during the game.
- Each table should have several objectives on them. Make them key locations in a logical sense. A bridge. A gate. A hill. A structure. (You can give structures some importance, like an ammo dump that can replenish those seeker missiles possibly?)
- At the end of each turn, each team should count up how many objectives they hold and tally them up. The team with the most points at the end of the game (either when it is called, when you want it to end, or when the rules say it should end) wins. (This means that a team that starts off strong and gets pushed back later may still end up winning.)
- All tables need to be kept in the same turn and rounds. This is key, seen as artillery may be coming in from one table to the other.
- Teams may concentrate their forces as they wish. Just recall that if you are too weak on some tables, you may lose from objective points. Fliers will be key (or any other transportation you wish to also add, especially if fliers are rare amongst your friends still. Could be as simple as walking off the edge of one table and showing up on another table the next turn... and just presume that there is a flier to pick them up and drop them off near the battle zone). Artillery will be key.
- This is the time to take the fortifications, such as the less often used landing pad. The Storm Talon Escort ability could also be especially handy too.
- Have fun. (Try to simplify the turns/tables. If you are shooting artillery from your table onto someone else, let them drop the template for you instead. If you are deep striking with a tunneling tyrannid (whom I would say could tunnel from map to map and pop out) onto someone else's table, leave instructions and let them deal with it. (I would also say, the smaller tunnelers (raveners?) could be the Tyranid way of moving from map to map... or just have "endless swarm", and have a killed off (little guys) squad respawn on another map... (Be creative!)

Edited by Tesunie, 23 April 2014 - 08:29 PM.






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