78 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

Huh...so, get this...it's weird.

I get how ECM works...and how BAP, TAG (and eventually NARC) are supposed to counter it....but I've run into some weird stuff lately.

Once upon a time, I figured out that I'd have to pay a 1.5 ton tax for streakboats to cut through ECM so I could hunt squirrels. Good enough. No biggie.

Then the ECM squirrels started running in pairs...so I tossed a Medium Laser and threw in a TAG....and it's not working at all.

Seems to me that if your target is covered under multiple ECM bubbles, TAG doesn't do crap. Someone else might want to try this out and see if it's just me or not.

But..as an example...I was chasing a SDR-5D around and we ran into his buddy, the D-DC. While I was chasing him, the TAG and BAP were both working fine....we got into that D-DC's bubble and both of them went to crap. I thought TAG was supposed to completely negate ECM on anything tagged.

And before you say anything, Joe, I kept the TAG laser on him the whole time...I don't have the old man shakes yet.

[No Guts No Glory]

ECM counters TAG within it's 180m bubble.

So while your BAP canceled a single ECM, the remaining active ECM canceled out your TAG.

[Roadkill]

Which is dumb, of course. ECM should not counter TAG on the firing Mech at all because the information is not being broadcast in any way. It should only counter a teammate's use of your TAG, and then only when you are within the ECM bubble.

[Khobai]

TAG is one more thing ECM shouldnt counter but does... ECM has absolutely zero effect on TAG in tabletop.

What ECM should do:
-counter artemis, narc, and bap when in disrupt mode
-increase missile lock-on time when in disrupt mode
-counter enemy ecm when in counter mode
-*possibly* grant stealth only to the mech its equipped on

What ECM should not do:
-counter tag
-grant stealth to other friendly mechs
-prevent missiles from locking on
-get countered by bap (bap should partially cut through ecm's stealth but bap should not do the same thing as ecm in counter mode)

Edited by Khobai, 11 March 2014 - 02:42 PM.

[stjobe]

Roadkill, on 11 March 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Which is dumb, of course. ECM should not counter TAG on the firing Mech at all because the information is not being broadcast in any way.

Indeed, how would an ELECTRONIC counter measure device stops a laser beam (which is what the TAG is)?

It should most definitely not stop TAG benefiting the TAGging 'mech itself, even if it stops the transmitting of target data to other 'mechs.

[Khobai]

to be fair tag shouldnt counter ecm either. neither should narc or bap.

[Roadkill]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

to be fair tag shouldnt counter ecm either.

Actually that's exactly what TAG should do - penetrate the ECM bubble with a non-electronic detection system so that the TAG-firing Mech isn't affected by the ECM. ECM should be able to prevent TAG information from being relayed, but only if the TAG-firing Mech is within the ECM bubble.

Quote

neither should narc or bap.

Sure, but that's because PGI's twisted bizarro version of ECM is all screwed up in the first place.

[Willard Phule]

No Guts No Glory, on 11 March 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

ECM counters TAG within it's 180m bubble.

So while your BAP canceled a single ECM, the remaining active ECM canceled out your TAG.

Right, I get that. But earlier, it didn't matter if 3 D-DCs were standing shoulder to shoulder...TAG cancelled out whoever you were shooting. Now, it's not.

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

TAG is one more thing ECM shouldnt counter but does... ECM has absolutely zero effect on TAG in tabletop.

What ECM should do:
-counter artemis, narc, and bap when in disrupt mode
-increase missile lock-on time when in disrupt mode
-counter enemy ecm when in counter mode
-*possibly* grant stealth only to the mech its equipped on

What ECM should not do:
-counter tag
-grant stealth to other friendly mechs
-prevent missiles from locking on
-get countered by bap (bap should partially cut through ecm's stealth but bap should not do the same thing as ecm in counter mode)

Right, man. Remember who you're responding to here. I know the TT rules. That's why my TT Supernova has 6 Angels in it. Gotcha. But, that ain't how it's supposed to work here.

Roadkill, on 11 March 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Which is dumb, of course. ECM should not counter TAG on the firing Mech at all because the information is not being broadcast in any way. It should only counter a teammate's use of your TAG, and then only when you are within the ECM bubble.

Gotcha. But...if BAP cancels out ONE ecm...and TAG cancels out another...shouldn't, by MW:O standards, I be able to chase an ECM squirrel through another ECM mech's bubble?

stjobe, on 11 March 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Indeed, how would an ELECTRONIC counter measure device stops a laser beam (which is what the TAG is)?

It should most definitely not stop TAG benefiting the TAGging 'mech itself, even if it stops the transmitting of target data to other 'mechs.

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

to be fair tag shouldnt counter ecm either. neither should narc or bap.

Right. Got it. ECM and ECCM don't work right in MW:O.

Could one of you outstanding Derpmasters try to duplicate this and report back?

I'm running my "less than optimal" Griffin (3 SSRM2s, 2 MLs, TAG, BAP) right now to Master it. I've run into this a couple of times...I'm pushing 105kph with a 350XL and have no trouble chasing squirrels...but, more often than not, I end up running into multiple ECM bubbles...which is why I'm asking this.

According to the MW:O information the developers have put out, BAP cancels out ONE ECM. TAG cancels out ECM on the targeted mech entirely (or it's supposed to) and..whether it's been implemented or not...NARC is supposed to cancel out one ECM as well.

So, here's my point...I'm chasing an ECM squirrel and well within the bubble. My BAP should be cancelling out his ECM.....He's tagged and runs into another mech's ECM bubble...by their rules, he should STILL be locked for SSRM2s because I've got TAG linked to the SSRM2s and set for group fire...kind of hard to run away from that. But, that's not what's happening. Lock is shutting down and I want to know if this is just me or if it's happening to everyone else as well.

Please, for God's sake, stop spamming this thread with what TAG, BAP, NARC "should do" with regard to Tabletop. Believe me, I get it. Seriously. If you want to do some kind of tabletop thing with me at some point, private message me and we'll figure out how to get it done (if you're in the Colorado Springs area, I've got a pool table with a hard cover, a beer fridge and about 100 'mech figurines). I'm more concerned with optimizing my MW:O crap here.

Kthanks.

Edited by Willard Phule, 11 March 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[Deathlike]

The rules get fuzzy... just like ECM on your sensors...

[Willard Phule]

Deathlike, on 11 March 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

The rules get fuzzy... just like ECM on your sensors...

You're killing me, Smalls.

I get it. Blah blah blah. PGI doesn't understand electronic counter measures. Yeah. Ok, roger.

CLEAR THE NET, OVER.

Thanks for playing. Roadkill, give him his consolation prize.

[Davers]

No Guts No Glory, on 11 March 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

ECM counters TAG within it's 180m bubble.

So while your BAP canceled a single ECM, the remaining active ECM canceled out your TAG.

This. Plus TAG doesn't work in the ECM bubble provided by the 2nd ECM mech.

[Roadkill]

Willard Phule, on 11 March 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Gotcha. But...if BAP cancels out ONE ecm...and TAG cancels out another...shouldn't, by MW:O standards, I be able to chase an ECM squirrel through another ECM mech's bubble?

You're misunderstanding the relationship between TAG and ECM.

TAG only cancels ECM if it is outside the ECM bubble. INSIDE the bubble, ECM cancels TAG.

So... you're chasing a squirrel and your BAP is canceling the squirrel's ECM.

The squirrel runs into a DDC's bubble. One of two things now happens.

1) You follow the squirrel in. You're now inside two bubbles - the squirrel's and the DDC's. Your BAP cancels one of them, but because you are inside the un-canceled ECM bubble it cancel's your TAG. Lock lost.

2) You don't follow the squirrel in. You're now outside of both bubbles, so your BAP cannot cancel either of them. However, I think that TAG cancels all ECM on a target, so you should be able to maintain missile lock provided you keep TAG on the squirrel at all times. If I'm wrong about that, though, then you'll lose lock because you're back to only canceling one ECM bubble since your BAP is out of range.

[Deathlike]

Willard Phule, on 11 March 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

You're killing me, Smalls.

I get it. Blah blah blah. PGI doesn't understand electronic counter measures. Yeah. Ok, roger.

CLEAR THE NET, OVER.

Thanks for playing. Roadkill, give him his consolation prize.

I'm just tired of arguing ECM, because PGI won't change it (or specifically, take a serious look at it), so I'm massively indifferent at this point in time.

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually that's exactly what TAG should do

nope its not. shooting a laser at a stealth aircraft doesnt make it anymore detectable to radar.

in tabletop ecm has no effect on tag and tag has no effect on ecm. all tag is really used for is designating targets for semi-guided lrms and arrow IV missiles.

[Willard Phule]

Ok, so I confirmed my own suspicions.

My Griffin mounts both BAP and TAG. In theory, the BAP should cancel out the ECM of the squirrel I'm chasing, since I'm only 80-100m away at any given point.....AND I'm tagging him at the same time.

When I get within the bubble of a second ECM mech (be it another squirrel or a stationary Derp in a D-DC), I lose signal completely.

In theory, the BAP should cancel out one, the TAG should cancel out the second. It doesn't. TAG is completely useless against ECM now...regardless of range. ( Before you post all sorts of nonsense, suffice it to say that I was close enough to kick the squirrel in question while being TAGged and with BAP).

I tried a little experiment...I lost the BAP for two rounds, just to try this out.....TAG is COMPLETELY USELESS NOW. Against a single ECM mech (in this case, a Locust), I chased the squirrel with TAG and SSRM2s locked into the same group. I locked him up with TAG for over 20 seconds and got NO lock for the SSRM2s. He even ran into a wall and I sat there, shooting him with MLasers and NEVER GOT A LOCK FOR THE SSRM2s.

AT THIS POINT, UNTIL PGI FIXES IT, LOSE YOUR TAG LASERS IF YOU'RE USING THEM TO GET RID OF ECM. IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK AND IS A WASTE OF TONNAGE AND SLOTS.

Feel free to tell me how I'm doing this wrong, because a Griffin that's designed to be a Squirrel Chaser with both BAP and TAG should be able to chase an ECM Squirrel into the bubble of another ECM mech, while TAGged, and still be able to launch streaks.

ECM has now gone way overboard. Time to bust out the SDR-5D and go to town. No need to fear streaks.

[Davers]

TAG is for marking ECM targets from outside the ECM bubble, up to 750m. It is not for cancelling out ECM at close range.

[CheeseThief]

With a TAG an LRM mech can actually acquire and shoot at ECM protected targets. the TAG doesn't ccounter ECM, it never has and was never supposed to. PPC's, ECCM and BAP turn the ECM off, TAG and UAV just let players acquire targets despite ECM.

Edited by CheeseThief, 11 March 2014 - 06:59 PM.

[Bobzilla]

Stealth aircraft don't use ecm

[Willard Phule]

Davers, on 11 March 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

TAG is for marking ECM targets from outside the ECM bubble, up to 750m. It is not for cancelling out ECM at close range.

OHO! I get it then.

So, my BAP cancels out the squirrel I'm chasing since I have to be within his bubble for it to work. Once I'm in his bubble, the tag doesn't work at all.

And since I can't mount multiple BAPs, there's no counter to this. Nice.

[jimredtalon]

so I had this kinda thing going on myself and I started thinking about the whole ecm, tag, bap relationship and after much thought I decided the best way to stop ecm at any range is not the bap or tag but the ppc, it works at any range if im correct and it does decent damage outside of the min range and inside the max range.

So my question is, would it be better just to run a ssrm2 boat with an ppc instead of tag, med las, and bap?