74 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Canon tells us that Il Khan Ulric Kerensky, fearing the Crusaders influence in the Inner sphere and that they would break the Truce of Tukayyid, took three charges raised by his own Clan to the Grand Council in 3057. We are to believe he did this as even though he could have defeated the charges within Clan Wolf, he hoped that by submitting them to the Grand Council he would have an opportunity to derail the danger the Crusaders posed to the Inner Sphere.

Some of the charges were found proven and Ulric was found guilty of treason. He immediately requested a Trial of Refusal baiting the Jade Falcons to represent the Grand Council. They did and thus began the Refusal War.

But who were these Crusaders that threatened the Inner Sphere. Who was Ulric so fearful of that he would take an internal Clan Wolf matter to the Grand Council and in effect, air his beloved Wolves dirty laundry. Why would he risk the Clan Wolf touman, the civilians, infrastructure and the Clans genetic heritage. Who were the players that compelled him to gamble the entirety of Clan Wolf for a matter he could easily resolve in house?

We know that the Home Clans could not enter the Inner Sphere, so we can safely dismiss them from the equation. Ulric was worried about the Crusaders who threatened the Inner Sphere, not those still back at the Home Worlds.

Clan Jade Falcon were ardent Crusaders, and long time opponents of Clan Wolf. Both Elias Crichell and Vandervahn Chistu were strong supporters of the Crusader cause.

Clan Smoke Jaguar's Khan Osis and sa Khan Weaver were no less ardent in their support of the Crusader cause. There is no doubt these two Clans were ferocious and large opponents, well versed and capable. They were the primary focus of the Crusader cause in the Clans.

Clan Wolf was certainly Warden, Natasha Kerensky and Phelan Ward held strong sympathy with the Inner Sphere and Ulric was the Wardens pin up poster boy, their declared champion.

These are the most well known, but who were the rest.

Clan Ghost Bear is an interesting example to review. They were ardent Crusaders for many years but after the loss of two Khans in 3048, they are noted in source books as adopting a new approach to things, they amended their view internally. We know that Ulric is on record as approving of the new Ghost Bear Khans in 3048 so we can assume that they had some affiliation with Warden views. Source books advise that in 3051 that Khan Aletha Kabrinski was changing from full on Crusader to more Warden views. We also know that the saKhan Jorgensson had long been a Warden sympathizer although he kept it hidden for many years.

Regardless we can conclude that Ghost Bear while publically Crusader, the Khans actions and interpretations were undoubtedly Warden by 3057. After all, Ghost Bear was well advanced moving its entire Clan to the Inner Sphere. It's hard to imagine that the Ghost Bear Khans would be supporting the Crusader action. Even more so given their relocation, surely they would not want to fight a renewed Crusader agenda before they had settled. We seem to be able to safely assume that Clan Ghost Bear would at least find a reason to sit on the fence, or lean towards a Warden camp in Inner sphere affairs to protect their relocation. When the war did break out, this is exactly what they did.

Clan Nova Cat were a Warden Clan and maintained a feud against Smoke Jaguar. Clan Steel Viper also had been Wardens since their founding Khan Mercer had laid down the Clans guiding principles, and they had a long standing feud with Clan Jade Falcon.

The other Inner sphere Clan was the Diamond Shark. Khan Hawker was a Crusader, saKhan Sennet favored the Wolves, source books show the Clan as a whole affiliated with Warden policies. After Tukayyid this Clan was rebuilding for many years and not pursing any aggression, even if they were able to mount any.

So we see that of the 7 Inner Sphere Clans, 5 were either declared or implicit supporters of the Warden cause. Three of them were actively feuding with the Crusaders and never going to side with them. These clans were firmly with Ulric, Wolf, Steel Vipers and Nova Cat. If it came to combat Ghost Bear was unlikely to fight for the Crusader side and Diamond shark the same. They would at best sit on the fence or perhaps fight for the Warden cause.

Three to two then, with two others likely to side with the Wardens if they fought at all. On Khans, it would be Crusaders 5 vs Warden 9, with Ulric clearly Warden as well and Khan Hawker of the Diamond sharks noted as moving to warden around this time, but nominally still recorded as a Crusader.

Were the 2 Crusaders Clans toumans so powerful that they could threaten the toumans of the Warden Clans. Subsequent events would suggest the toumans of the Crusaders while formidable, were hardly going to conquer the Inner Sphere alone, let alone outnumbered by Warden warriors in their rear areas.

Or were the Warden Khans so morally weak Ulric was worried they might switch sides?

Why did Ulric see the Crusaders as such a threat to the Inner Sphere? We are told ostensibly the Crusaders were about to break the Truce of Tukayyid, but were they? The Wardens had both the influence and toumans to ensure the Crusaders remained in their Invasion zones. The Crusaders were not strong enough to advance without the support of the Wardens, and the Wardens led by Ulric said no. Why did Ulric need to go to war to achieve what he already had control over?

Could it be that the Refusal War actually had nothing to do with any great danger from the Crusaders, because we can see they were not about to break the Truce? Why did the war start then?

Natasha and Phelan immediately pledged Clan Wolf to defend Ulric's personal Trial. They didn't need to, indeed by custom this trial being a personal one had no need for anyone bar Ulric to represent himself or perhaps his command star.

But the entire touman was bid to defend him, why? Why was no other Clan permitted to bid to defend the Il Khan? By what law did Clan Wolf claim this supposed honour, which was then denied any other Clan? Why did no other Clan bid lower than a whole touman to defend Ulric? Why did the Scorpians or the Coyotes for example not bid less than Natasha to avoid wastage of warriors and claim for themselves this supposed honour of representing the traitorous Il Khan, he was after all Il Khan to all Clans. With Clan Wolf his defenders, why then did Ulric bait the Flacons specifically and not let the Grand Council follow due process for who would represent them?

Did Ulric play on the intense hatred between these Clans to throw the Wolf touman into battle with their long time enemy. Did he play on the personal loyalty Natasha and Phelan owed him for his sponsorship into positions of great power. Could it be that Elias Crichell was a rival for the position of Il Khan and Ulric wished to see him discredited in petty spite or jealously after being stripped of the Il Khanship for his crimes until the result of the trial?

Did Ulric take the charges to the Grand Council so that rather than dying to a Wolf warrior who challenged him for his crimes, he could shelter behind the Wolf touman and they would die instead. Was Ulric so bloodthirsty that he would let the warriors of Clan Wolf die to defend what he could not defend himself?

Was the Refusal War started because an old man guilty of the treason manipulated circumstance to extend his life when he was finally caught? Could it be that Ulric advancing in age doubted himself in combat, and would not step up to defend himself lest he fail and die. Was he scared?

Was he worthy of a warriors death if he worked so hard to avoid one? Was he really "murdered" at Woton or did he get the 'execution' he deserved?

There is no canon to answer these questions directly, all the canon we have comes from Comstar or Phelan's Wolves in Exile and they portray their long time friend and ally as a victim of this Crusader agenda, without naming where the Crusader threat comes from. They are silent on these questions. Dead men are silent to.

If Clans Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar were not in a position to break the truce as we have seen, who were the mystery Crusaders who threatened the Inner Sphere that scared Ulric such and triggered the Refusal War? Or was this proven traitor now cashing in his favours so that Clan Wolf warriors could die to defend him when he could not defend himself?

[Vincent V. Kerensky]

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Canon tells us that Il Khan Ulric Kerensky, fearing the Crusaders influence in the Inner sphere and that they would break the Truce of Tukayyid, took three charges raised by his own Clan to the Grand Council in 3057. We are to believe he did this as even though he could have defeated the charges within Clan Wolf, he hoped that by submitting them to the Grand Council he would have an opportunity to derail the danger the Crusaders posed to the Inner Sphere.

True, to some degree. Two of the charges made little to no sense and were rebuked quite easily. The third however on genoside was far more serious. As his right was, he pushed it up to the Grand Council instead. Only once before had anyone been accused of such a serious crime and that had not been handled by a Clan Council. Besides, had he won an internal trial within Clan Wolf, nothing is to say that Loremaster Carns would not have pushed it up to the Grand Council anyway. The charges presented affected all Clans, not just Clan Wolf.

Besides, by pushing it up to the Grand Council, Ulric bought some time to plan ahead. He knew what would happen, he knew he would lose the Trial.

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...Although the charges were farcical, the Loremaster had inadvertently found a successful avenue of attack for the Crusaders against Ulric. Ulric could not simply dismiss this charge as he had the others. Ulric was as always however, a master of strategy. He refused to battle the charge out in his own Clan, fearing it would tear the Wolves apart along Warden and Crusader lines and even if he did win, the serious charge would simply moved to the Crusader-dominated Grand Council at any rate...

(source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Refusal_War )

He was challenged to a game and he decided to play at their table.

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Some of the charges were found proven and Ulric was found guilty of treason. He immediately requested a Trial of Refusal baiting the Jade Falcons to represent the Grand Council. They did and thus began the Refusal War.

I am not so sure if he baited the Jade Falcon to a Trial of Refusal. He called a Trial after his guilty verdict yes, but the Jade Falcon were the prosecurers. I am not certain about this, but I believe that the prosecuting party would be the defending part against any Trial of Refusal should it be called. (Would love to see a source on this though as I am not sure.)

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But who were these Crusaders that threatened the Inner Sphere.

Simple, In general all Crusader elements in any Clan threatened the Inner Sphere. Ulric saw within his own Clan the growing support for the Crusader ideology and decided to act upon it once it started working against him as ilKhan. Besides, once someone accuses you of treason against all Clans, fraternising with the enemy and on top of that, genoside, it is no longer an internal matter as mentioned above.

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We know that the Home Clans could not enter the Inner Sphere, so we can safely dismiss them from the equation....

I disagree. Ulric himself activated reserve Clans to fight in the Inner Sphere. Reserve Clan would mean they would be next in line to invade if it was necessary. The new ilKhan would be more than free to work for motions to activate all the Clans if he so pleased to fight the Inner Sphere.

We do not know this for sure though, but your statement is flawed.

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Clan Jade Falcon....

Clan Smoke Jaguar....

Clan Wolf....

True enough.

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Clan Ghost Bear is an interesting example to review. They were ardent Crusaders for many years but after the loss of two Khans in 3048, they are noted in source books as adopting a new approach to things, they amended their view internally. We know that Ulric is on record as approving of the new Ghost Bear Khans in 3048 so we can assume that they had some affiliation with Warden views. Source books advise that in 3051 that Khan Aletha Kabrinski was changing from full on Crusader to more Warden views. We also know that the saKhan Jorgensson had long been a Warden sympathizer although he kept it hidden for many years.

I think you got it backwards there. Kabrinski was saKhan under Khan Karl Bourjon, challenged him when he failed to plan properly for the invasion, Bjorn Jorgensson became the new Khan after him.

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...At the gathering to elect a new saKhan, the Ghost Bears would select Aletha Kabrinski for the position. She quickly lived up to her aggressive nature and called for the dismissal of Karl Bourjon as Khan for his failure to plan adequately for the invasion. A call that many fellow warriors agreed with. While Karl did call for a Trial of Refusal against losing his position, he displayed little skill (perhaps due to recognizing his own failures in the invasion preparation) and was defeated by Bjorn Jorgensson who would become the new Khan....

(source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Karl_Bourjon )

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Regardless we can conclude that Ghost Bear while publically Crusader,...

Yes. Clan Ghost Bear turned Warden publicly at the eve of the Great Refusal (3060). Their relocation efforts started in 3055 and was formally completed in 3060:

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....Originally of the Crusader mindset, they were one of the four original Clans to participate in the Clan Invasion in 3050, but following the Battle of Tukayyid their philosophy changed towards the Wardens, which they officially announced on the eve of the Great Refusal....

....Thus Khan Jorgennson proposed a bold plan to move his Clan wholesale into the Inner Sphere and, as per Clan traditions, put the matter to a vote by the whole warrior caste. The motion passed and beginning in early 3055 the relocation effort begun...

....It was not until the move was nearly complete - the last Bear ark-ship leaving Clan space in early 3060 - that a formal announcement of their relocation had been made, and by then the reborn Second Star League's Operation Serpent task force had landed on Huntress....

(source: http://www.sarna.net...Clan_Ghost_Bear )

Edited by Vincent V Kerensky, 16 March 2014 - 09:54 PM.

[Vincent V. Kerensky]

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Clan Nova Cat were a Warden Clan....

...Clan Steel Viper also had been Wardens since their founding Khan Mercer had laid down the Clans guiding principles, and they had a long standing feud with Clan Jade Falcon.

Eventually, yes. The Nova Cats were Crusaders to begin with.

Khan Mercer was not the Steel Viper founding Khan, though she was one of the more powerful ones.

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....The Golden Century was the birth of the Crusader and Warden movements. The Nova Cats, supported by their Merchant caste's readiness to exploit new worlds, fell solidly into the Crusader camp. While firm Crusaders, the Nova Cats felt that only a Nova Cat ilKhan could properly lead an invasion of the Inner Sphere and did not trust any other Clan's leadership as they lacked the necessary spiritual guidance....

(source: http://www.sarna.net...i/Clan_Nova_Cat )

...Clan Steel Viper had one of the rockiest starts of the Clans of Kerensky as its first Khan, Ellie Kinnison...

(source: http://www.sarna.net...lan_Steel_Viper )

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The other Inner sphere Clan was the Diamond Shark....

I do not agree with your definition of Inner Sphere Clan but the rest looks to be in order.

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So we see that of the 7 Inner Sphere Clans, 5 were either declared or implicit supporters of the Warden cause. Three of them were actively feuding with the Crusaders and never going to side with them....

That is one way of saying it but you have to remember that all Clans have Crusader/Warden factions within them but that the leadership sets the policies. You also have to take the individual Clans strength into account. The Clan Wolf Touman was strong, but so was the Jade Falcon. Smoke Jaguars were not really a threat after Operation Bulldog but that was after the Refusal War.

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Were the 2 Crusaders Clans toumans so powerful that they could threaten the toumans of the Warden Clans. Subsequent events would suggest the toumans of the Crusaders while formidable, were hardly going to conquer the Inner Sphere alone, let alone outnumbered by Warden warriors in their rear areas.

It seems to me that you look at possible scenarios here. Ulric did not know if the Inner Sphere would band together to fight the Clans yet. He did what he could right there and then to follow the Warden philosophy and protect the Inner Sphere.

For a real world example, I will direct you to have a look at World War 2. If every nation had banded together against the Axis in the beginning, things might have gone differently. We will never know though.

We cannot speculate in what "could" have happened. We can however look into why he did what he did.

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Why did Ulric see the Crusaders as such a threat to the Inner Sphere?

The Crusaders, specially the Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar were looking for ways to revoke the Truce and resume the invasion.

Yes, I believe the Wardens were strong enough to handle the Crusaders, but according to Clan law, a Trial of Refusal can only be handled once. It is the highest instance of court for them and it cannot be changed once the outcome is decided.

Engaging in constant warfare between the Clans would be a waste.

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Could it be that the Refusal War actually had nothing to do with any great danger from the Crusaders, because we can see they were not about to break the Truce? Why did the war start then?

The ilKhan after Ulric came from Clan Jade Falcon. A Crusader. The great danger of that was that if the Truce was broken, the Crusaders could flood an Inner Sphere barely recovering from the Invasion. That would mean more deaths, more instability and more chaos.

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Natasha and Phelan immediately pledged Clan Wolf to defend Ulric's personal Trial. They didn't need to...

Once the sentence was made, Ulric disputed the result. Once he was in the Grand Council, it changed from a personal trial to a trial against his entire Clan. That is why he bid Clan Wolf against the decision. Besides, Natasha and Phelan were supporters of Ulric. He was a great leader and they loved him.

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But the entire touman was bid to defend him, why?

Clan Wolf defended themselves, the Grand Council voted agaist them and Clan Wolf appealed the sentence. No other Warden Clan was in any position to fight against the Crusaders. Had they, this could have spilled into the Clan Homeworlds, which would have made the affair even more bloody, more wasteful.

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Did Ulric play on the intense hatred between these Clans...

I believe he did. But he did it in the political sense. He worked hard for the Warden cause and this was the final straw. He did what he did because he had to.

Edited by Vincent V Kerensky, 16 March 2014 - 09:33 PM.

[Vincent V. Kerensky]

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Could it be that Elias Crichell was a rival for the position of Il Khan and Ulric wished to see him discredited in petty spite or jealously after being stripped of the Il Khanship for his crimes until the result of the trial?

Khan Crichell was a rival for the position, aff. But Ulric doing this for spite or jealousy? Neg, I do not believe so. Crichell and Kerensky were clearly rivals but I do not believe the actions of Kerensky were driven by such emotions.

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Did Ulric take the charges to the Grand Council so that rather than dying to a Wolf warrior who challenged him for his crimes, he could shelter behind the Wolf touman and they would die instead. Was Ulric so bloodthirsty that he would let the warriors of Clan Wolf die to defend what he could not defend himself?

Neg. He took them to the Grand Council because they would end up there eventually anyway, regardless of the outcome.

Besides, he offered to fight one of the Loremasters supporters during the Clan Council Trial:

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....When Star Captain Radick protested the ilKhan's actions, Ulric pressed her, asking if she intended to challenge him to a Trial of Refusal. Radick immediately backed down, unwilling to meet the legendary leader of the Clans in combat....



(source: http://www.sarna.net.../Ulric_Kerensky )

Why would she back down if he was so old and ailing? Neg, I do not believe so. I think Ulric was a great MechWarrior.

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Was the Refusal War started because an old man...

I do not know if he was scared but as a general reply to this, Neg.

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Was he worthy of a warriors death if he worked so hard to avoid one? Was he really "murdered" at Woton or did he get the 'execution' he deserved?

What? He did not try to avoid a Warriors death... He fought on the front lines in the Invasion and during the Refusal War. At Tukayyid, he fought at the forefront as well. He was actually robbed of a Warriors death by the Falcons.

Ulric was an honorable Warrior.

As said before, if better sources are to be had, do please present them. Sarna is not perfect as stated before but it is what I have available.

EDIT 1: Added quote boxes.
EDIT 2: Had to spread this out over three posts for some reason. Sorry about that but the quote boxes were making problems for me.

Edited by Vincent V Kerensky, 16 March 2014 - 09:35 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Its not "true to degree", it's exactly what canon says? Ulric had to answer "charges" (plural) and he was found guilty of treason (not genocide) so we can safely assume that it was indicment raised by the Loremaster that was forwarded, as that was the document that noted the "treason" charge. How else could Ulric be found guilty of treason, unless treason is a general term to cover every crime against the Clans, but then why submit a charge of genocide?

We can agree that Ulric had a right to push the charges up to the Grand Council, the question I pose is why did he. Why did he choose to send a matter that could be easily quashed with his powers as Il Khan within Clan Wolf to the Grand Council?

Whilst the supporters for Ulric may well claim the charges were farcical, the treason one was certainly proven by a vote of 19 to 15. Are we to assume that the Grand Council is 'farcical' because they act according to their laws and democratically come to a majority once they review both sides of the argument?

The Loremaster raised the charge of genocide of Clan Wolf warriors. It most certainly was a internal matter. I see no record of the Loremaster accusing Ulric of anything other than matter within Clan Wolf. Clan Wolverine committed genocide on Clan Snow Raven (so the charge was laid), and hence was a matter for the Grand Council. When Smoke Jaguar starved their own civilians and millions died, that was in internal Clan matter and the Grand Council did not get involved.

My statement about the Home Clans is not flawed. Yes the Il Khan could, but the Gran Council would have to agree. And the Invading Clans if they were united on only one thing, it was their jealous protection of their right to be in the Inner Sphere. It is extremly unlikely that Home Clans could come forward and indeed, the harvest trials in 3058 / 3059 bear this out. Had the Crusaders (or Wardens) tried to bring forward a Clan the other side and 'left behind' clans would all block it. In effect, All Clans would have to go or none for a vote to be passed.

My information on the Ghost Bear Clans is direct from the Warden Clans Source Book (pg 81) I have detailed them in the order they appear in the book and if their ranks are opposite that is my error, but does not change the content of the discussion.

Fair enough, sa Khan Mercer was not a 'founder' Khan. She was instrumental in laying down the Steel Vipers Warden politics in 2860 and hence my use of the word 'founding' in the sense that she laid this Warden foundation. A point which remains not withstanding the terminology but yes, I could have used a better choice of word.

What other way is there to say that 5 of the 7 Clans in the Inner Sphere either were outright Warden or implictly (by their actions) were Warden?

Were the Crusaders looking to repute the truce, sure. Thats their nature. The point is that they couldn't without the Wardens support, and that was not forthcoming. Canon from the Wolf Clan sources say Clan Jade Falcon was assembling materials to break the Truce but how could those Wolf Sources possibly know 'why' materials were being assembled. It could just as easily been for a relocation like Ghost Bear, or to invade the IS worlds they were permitted to until they reached the Tukayyid line. There is no evidence that any Crusader Clan was planning to breach the Truce bar what Clan Wolf and its allies offer as justification for their actions.

So again, why did Ulric need to initiate a personal war to achieve what he already had control over? I would submit that no one starts a war to earn what the already have, so why did Ulric? The only realistic answer is it was not to defeat the Crusaders, he already had them under control.

And no, Ulric was personally found guilty and he personally issued a challenge, had he won the challenge he would have (most likely) proved his case an been re established as Il Khan. Elias was not made Il Khan the moment Ulric was stripped. There was no reason for the Wolf Clan to be bid bar the decision of Natasha and Phelan. Why did they pledge their touman to fight for Ulric. And ig they could do it by law, why could no other Clan bid for the honour. After this Ulric baits the Falcons to fight implying they are scared to face the Wolf touman. If the Wolf touman had not been bid, Ulric could not have made this insinuation. Clan Wolf was not indicited on the charges, Ulric was alone.

Ulric manipulated things not because he had to, because he wanted to.

Had Ulric sufficient courage as you portray, he could have defended himself at his trial of refusal without risking Clan Wolf and all its legacy. Had he been the formidable opponent you say, he would not have had cause to even seek the aid of the Wolf touman.

He did not need to start a war to win what he already had, and he did not defend himself personally against charges laid on his personal conduct.

At least Il Khan Crichell had the courage to face Vlad in exactly the same position.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 16 March 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

Its not "true to degree", it's exactly what canon says? Ulric had to answer "charges" (plural) and he was found guilty of treason (not genocide) so we can safely assume that it was indicment raised by the Loremaster that was forwarded, as that was the document that noted the "treason" charge. How else could Ulric be found guilty of treason, unless treason is a general term to cover every crime against the Clans, but then why submit a charge of genocide?

We can agree that Ulric had a right to push the charges up to the Grand Council, the question I pose is why did he. Why did he choose to send a matter that could be easily quashed with his powers as Il Khan within Clan Wolf to the Grand Council?

I already stated in another thread what happened with the charges. Ulric got blindsided by the third charge brought forward by Dalk Carns because it was not on the indictment. The quote I posted in the other thread shows that Ulric dealt with the first two charges, the formal ones, but due to the serious nature of the bullshit charge, he had to forward it to the Grand Council.

Craig Steele, on 16 March 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

Whilst the supporters for Ulric may well claim the charges were farcical, the treason one was certainly proven by a vote of 19 to 15. Are we to assume that the Grand Council is 'farcical' because they act according to their laws and democratically come to a majority once they review both sides of the argument?

In this instance yes. The reason the third charge was not on the indictment was to catch Ulric off guard. It worked. The charge of genocide & ultimately treason was the most serious charge among the Clans (as Ulric himself quoted in the source material I referenced in the other thread). There were more Crusaders at the time so when the vote to impeach Ulric came up, they won. Their goal was to strip Ulric of the ilKhanship & thus repudiate the truce.

Craig Steele, on 16 March 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

The Loremaster raised the charge of genocide of Clan Wolf warriors. It most certainly was a internal matter. I see no record of the Loremaster accusing Ulric of anything other than matter within Clan Wolf. Clan Wolverine committed genocide on Clan Snow Raven (so the charge was laid), and hence was a matter for the Grand Council. When Smoke Jaguar starved their own civilians and millions died, that was in internal Clan matter and the Grand Council did not get involved.

As Ulric said, he knew if he defeated it in the Wolf Clan Council, they would just bring it up in the Grand Council anyway, so he sent it there. Also you are comparing apples to oranges, the Smoke Jaguar matter was civilians, lower castes. the Wolverines nuked a genetic repository i.e. potentially future warriors.

Craig Steele, on 16 March 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

At least Il Khan Crichell had the courage to face Vlad in exactly the same position.

Actually Crichell did not face Vlad because he had courage, he did it because he had no choice.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 16 March 2014 - 10:31 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 16 March 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

I already stated in another thread what happened with the charges. Ulric got blindsided by the third charge brought forward by Dalk Carns because it was not on the indictment. The quote I posted in the other thread shows that Ulric dealt with the first two charges, the formal ones, but due to the serious nature of the bullshit charge, he had to forward it to the Grand Council.

Phelan Kell himself disagrees, pg 22 Warriors of Kerensky. "As Il Khan Ulric was under no compunction to answer the charges...."

"....Ulric could have fought the charge in the Wolf Clan Council and won, but he knew the acqusation would come back to haunt him in later years. He therefore took the charge to the Grand Council, even knowing he would likely lose. The result was the Refusal War"

This pretty much is exactly why I ask the question. His most ardent sympathiser and supporter says he could have kept it in house and won, but he chose to take it to the Grand Council knowing he would lose.

So given the Crusaders had not the strength to break the Truce without his support, why did he pick a fight that he could not win, and sacrifice Clan Wolf in the process?

As for Crichell, maybe, maybe not. The point is when he was required to defend his personal honour he stepped into the circle (and died).

Ulric did not, he let Natasha and Phelan pledge every Wolf Warrior in his defence.

Edited by Craig Steele, 16 March 2014 - 10:37 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

The reason he was under no compunction to answer the third charge was as I stated, it was not formal; it was not on the indictment.

As for Crichell, there was no maybe. He tried to name a second to fight in his stead, but Vlad had read the rules & Crichell was forced to step into the Circle and he died.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 16 March 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

The reason he was under no compunction to answer the third charge was as I stated, it was not formal; it was not on the indictment.

As for Crichell, there was no maybe. He tried to name a second to fight in his stead, but Vlad had read the rules & Crichell was forced to step into the Circle and he died.

And yet Ulric chose to answer it and in a manner to pick a fight he did not need to fight?

In Clan Wolf he was the winner. No one could touch him. But he chose to go to the Grand Council and risk losing, and risk the entire Wolf touman and its genetic legacy. He staked everything Clan Wolf had on his personal honour. I ask why.

It certainly wasn't to stop the Crusaders breaching the Truce because there is no evidence they were going to except for Clan Jade Flacon "assembling materials". This is hardly evidence of anything except that a military force was preparing for any eventuality. And no more Clans were joining the "Inner Sphere" the voting block would never let it pass. So why?

On Crichell, exactly. There should have been no "out' for Ulric either.

Crichell had a charge against his personal honour, and there should be no out. He stepped into the circle to face his fate.

Ulric had a charge against his personal honour, and there should be no out. But he let Clan Wolf take the fall for him.

We can argue that Crichell maybe didn't have good freinds as Ulric did, but thats hardly the point. In exactly the same scenario, we see two completely different outcomes. So I ask why?

EDIT: Let me be clear, I'm not submitting the charge was not 'trumped up', I'm not debating that Ulric was blind sided. But I am submitting that when he was 'cornered' (for want of a better word) and his personal honour questioned, he launched a war rather than face the music himself and threw thousands of Clan Wolf warriors to their deaths. Had things gone badly, Clan Wolf was gone, written off and a carcass for the Clans to pick over as they wished. He risked everything he didn't own for his personal honour.

Edited by Craig Steele, 16 March 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You are missing the point. Both Ulric & Crichell had no choice.

In Ulric's case while the charge was not formal, he knew it would wind up in the Grand Council anyway because of the seriousness of it & the Crusaders wanted to get rid of him as ilKhan & there were more Crusaders than Wardens at the time, so they knew they would win the vote. As I also said before, it was a carefully calculated plan.

In Crichell's case it was his status as the best warrior of ALL the Clans, which as the ilKhan, he had to be. There was an out if Vlad had made the charge another way, but how he worded it, another Khan told Crichell he could not name a second to fight on his behalf, because of the rules. I will get the exact quote when I get home. It had nothing to do with how many friends he had.

As I said in the other thread, the Clans are all about law, lore, policies & procedures.

Yes Ulric was the one charged, but he initiated a Trial of Refusal & according to the law, he had a right to name allies to fight with him. He did. Notice when he did, the Grand Council never said he could not or it was illegal. He had every right to & he did.

Ulric was a staunch Warden. He wanted to prevent the Crusade. The Jade Falcons were in the best spot to resume the invasion at that time & he calculated they would most likely be the ones to win the Right to prosecute him at the impeachment hearing. He wanted to destroy the Crusade, that meant damaging the Falcons to such an extent that they could not resume the invasion if the truce got repudiated & also get rid of the Crusaders in the Wolf Clan at the same time.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 March 2014 - 01:50 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

You are missing the point. Both Ulric & Crichell had no choice.

In Ulric's case while the charge was not formal, he knew it would wind up in the Grand Council anyway because ultimately the Crusaders wanted to get rid of as ilKhan & there were more Crusaders than Wardens at the time, so they knew they would win the vote. As I also said before it was a carefully calculated plan.

In Crichell's case it was his status as the best warrior of ALL the Clans as the ilKhan has to be. There was an out if Vlad had made the charge another way, but how he worded it, another Khan told Crichell he could not name a second to fight on his behalf. I will get the exact quote when I get home. It had nothing to do with how many friends he had.

As I said in the other thread, the Clans are all about law, lore, policies & procedures.

Ulric was a staunch Warden. He wanted to prevent the Crusade. The Jade Falcons were in the best spot to resume the invasion at that time & he calculated they would most likely be the ones to win the Right to prosecute him at the impeachment hearing. He wanted to destroy the Crusade, that meant damaging the Falcons to such an extent that they could not resume the invasion & also get rid of the Crusaders in the Wolf Clan at the same time.

OK, sure. Look forward to it

But I don't think I'm missing the point, I think we are discussing opposite ends.

The canon reads that Ulric was charged by the Clan Wolf Loremaster for genocide of Clan Wolf warriors. If the Loremaster wanted to make an accusation on behalf of all the Clans he was in the wrong format. This was an internal Clan Wolf matter as Phelan tells us quite clearly.

Accordingly, Ulric could have said "nah" and thats the end of it.

No other Clan even knows about this at this stage, it's an internal Clan Wolf matter.

But when Ulric says "nah", he doesn't stop there, he says "screw this, I'm gunna end this Crusader threat". Knowing that he can quash it in the Wolf COuncil, he then chooses to take it to the Grand Council where he cannot quash it, he muct answer the charges (and subsequently at least is found proven, treason).

Clan Wolf Loremaster has no basis to submit to any other Clan, and indeed had he done so he slits his own throat within Clan Wolf for betraying his fellow Wolves.

It didn't need to go anywhere except Clan Wolf but Ulric chose otherwise. Thats what Phelan tells us.

Ultimately, Ulric risked the Clan Wolf touman to defend his personal honour, that he was (or was not) a traitor whch he didn't need to do. It was his honour not the Clans.

[ManaValkyrie]

Actually the specific charge of genocide levelled at Ulric, by nature of the charge, would have been forced to the Grand Council. The Loremaster in the quoted text accused Ulric of Genocide by denying 3 generations of Clan warriors combat experience.etc, not Wolf Warriors, but Clan warriors.

Even if he had been accused solely of that charge against Clan Wolf, the charge would have rapidly been picked up by the Crusader Clans looking for a way to repute the Truce of Tukayid.

With regards to the Refusal War itself, at the outbreak of the Refusal War, the other Inner Sphere occupying clans were busy dealing with internal problems on IS planets, or in the case of the Ghost Bears, arranging the movement of there whole clan into IS space.

The only Clan in a position to actually resume an offensive against the IS, at the point in time, was the Jade Falcons, and every piece of material I have read states that they had been rebuilding, restocking and resupplying for a resumed offensive.

Ulric, utilized Clan laws the same way many Clans have done so in the back history, to not only defend himself but to ensure that their enemy got hammered at the same time. Ulric saw the looming division within his own clan, and utilized that to a greater advantage. He Blooded those warriors against the best, against the Falcons, he smashed the Jade Falcon's capability to resume an offensive for a long period of time.

The specific targetting of Ulric by yourself is amusing by the way Craig Steele, this is the second set of whip on Ulric threads I have now read from yourself. I would point out that reading the 'canon' sourebook backstories and histories of the majority of the clans and you will find a multitude of instances where Khan's and IlKhans have done similar things using the clan rules and customs to achieve multiple objectives.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I apologize in advance. My .pdf is not letting me set it as a text document for some reason & the .rtf I have of the novel is corrupted so I am forced to use pictures. What I am referring to is on Pg.65 when Khan Ian Hawker speaks but as always, I will post as much of the convo as possible so you can get an idea of what is going on. The post is going to be huge & again I apologize in advance.

[Jaroth Corbett]

[Craig Steele]

ManaValkyrie, on 17 March 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

Actually the specific charge of genocide levelled at Ulric, by nature of the charge, would have been forced to the Grand Council. (1) The Loremaster in the quoted text accused Ulric of Genocide by denying 3 generations of Clan warriors (1) combat experience.etc, not Wolf Warriors, but Clan warriors.

Even if he had been accused solely of that charge against Clan Wolf, the charge would have rapidly been picked up by the Crusader Clans (2) looking for a way to repute the Truce of Tukayid.

With regards to the Refusal War itself, at the outbreak of the Refusal War, the other Inner Sphere occupying clans were busy dealing with internal problems on IS planets, or in the case of the Ghost Bears, arranging the movement of there whole clan into IS space.

The only Clan in a position to actually resume an offensive against the IS, at the point in time, was the Jade Falcons, and every piece of material I have read states that they had been rebuilding, restocking and resupplying for a resumed offensive (3).

Ulric, utilized Clan laws the same way many Clans have done so in the back history, to not only defend himself but to ensure that their enemy (4) got hammered at the same time. Ulric saw the looming division within his own clan, and utilized that to a greater advantage. He Blooded those warriors against the best, against the Falcons, he smashed the Jade Falcon's capability to resume an offensive for a long period of time (5).

The specific targetting of Ulric by yourself is amusing by the way (6) Craig Steele, this is the second set of whip on Ulric threads I have now read from yourself. I would point out that reading the 'canon' sourebook backstories and histories of the majority of the clans and you will find a multitude of instances where Khan's and IlKhans have done similar things using the clan rules and customs to achieve multiple objectives.

(1) Not so, the Loremaster of Clan Wolf cannot indicite Ulric on matters affecting the Clans at all, he can only do so for matters concerning Clan Wolf. His charge was that Ulric committed genocide of 3 generations of Clan Wolf warriors. Had the Loremaster wished to have him charged with Genocide of Clan warriors, he would have needed to submit his evidence to the Clans Loremaster (Kael Pershaw) for the indicment to be issued fromt he appropriate authority..

Clearly he did not. The text quite specifically declares the charge is in addition to the other two matters currently before the Wolf Clan Council, not from another council. He also talks about a trial with his clerk, not the Clans Loremaster, for the ommission. The novels quite clearly place this acqusation within Clan Wolf and no other Clan has a say in Clan Wolf affairs.

(2) Well yes and no. Assuming the matter was dealth with "in House" the worst that would happen is that either Ulric doesn't show up for work one day and a new Il Khan is required (the Wolf Crusaders preferred goal) or Ulric defeats his acqusers within Clan Wolf in a Refusal and it cannot be challenged again. As someone else highlighted, a Trial of refusal is the highest court in Clan Culture and cannot be repeated. If Ulric won, he stays Il Khan and there is nothing the other Clans can do.

(3) So firstly this is a Clan Wolf source and ostensibily their justification for what they did so muct be treated with care. But do you really think that Clan Wolf and Smoke Jaguar were not also moving up supplies to their fronts? Of course they were. These are military organisations and there are raids and defenses going on. The simple fact they were "building up" does not mean they were breaking the truce of Tukayyid. There are many other very plausible reasons for all the IS clans to be moving supplies to their forces, Jade Falcons included.

(4) But this is my point. It was Ulrics honour not a Wolf / Jade Falcon thing. Ulric could have fought his Lore master for example, just as opposed to Ulric so the canon tells us. The Crusaders were not about to break the Truce of Tukayyid without Warden support so there was no reason for him to cripple the Crusader cause. He didn't want to defend himself one on one, he wanted Clan Wolf to defend him against his old foe and political rival.

(5) Did he though? This I haven't touched on yet as I was waiting for someone to drift around to it, but think about the timeline. Theres 10 years left on the Truce, Ulric controls the Wardens. Some here portray Ulric as a fit active competent warrior. If he was, he's not falling off the perch tomorrow, he will probably make it to the end of the Truce. His influence doesn't look to be in danger. We can theory craft that by diplomacy alone Ulric can maintain the Truce without fighting anyone. But instead, he picks this fight? Also, needless to say that just 18 months after the Refusal War, Martha demonstrates very clearly that the Refusal War did not hinder the Jade Falcons at all. They walked across a big slab of Lyran space and smacked half a dozen regiments on the way to take Coventary. If you're telling me all those Wolves died to slow down the Jade Falcons, they failed.

(6) I do hope you mean ha ha amusing? In any case, Ulric is a major player and I do believe that much of his interaction with the BT world has been reported through rose coloured glasses. I get that alot of people don't want to look at the depth of complexity of the man, they soak up the headlines and move on but I think if we take a look at him with both his strengths and weaknesses laid bare, maybe we have a better appreciation or understanding of him. He is not a headline character and he offers a lot if people want to question the headlines.

For example, on at least two occassions Ulric appoints a Khan like a kingmaker, no other Khan has done that as I can see. Indeed, voting for your leader is one of the Bloodnames rights which Nicholas fostered upon them. Yet no one ever seems to ask why Ulric can get away with this flagrant breach of Clan culture and defy the traditions Nicholas himself.

But sure, there are plenty of Khans doing naughty stuff and plenty of other characters of the BT world that get rose coloured glasses. I can do Takashi Kurita if you want?

Edited by Craig Steele, 17 March 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 17 March 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

(1) Not so, the Loremaster of Clan Wolf cannot indicite Ulric on matters affecting the Clans at all, he can only do so for matters concerning Clan Wolf. His charge was that Ulric committed genocide of 3 generations of Clan Wolf warriors. Had the Loremaster wished to have him charged with Genocide of Clan warriors, he would have needed to submit his evidence to the Clans Loremaster (Kael Pershaw) for the indicment to be issued fromt he appropriate authority..

Clearly he did not. The text quite specifically declares the charge is in addition to the other two matters currently before the Wolf Clan Council, not from another council. He also talks about a trial with his clerk, not the Clans Loremaster, for the ommission. The novels quite clearly place this acqusation within Clan Wolf and no other Clan has a say in Clan Wolf affairs.

Actually he can. As Ulric stated the third one was the most grave concerning the Clans & Ulric himself KNEW it would be brought up in the Grand Council. Yes it says in addition to the other two charges but AGAIN it was not on the indictment. This is the last time I am saying that. Dalk Carns did this to blindside Ulric; even Vlad & Marielle Radick had no knowledge of this.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 March 2014 - 06:00 AM.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

Actually he can. As Ulric stated the third one was the most grave concerning the Clans & Ulric himself KNEW it would be brought up in the Grand Council. Yes it says in addition to the other two charges but AGAIN it was not on the indictment. This is the last time I am saying that. Dalk Carns did this to blindside Ulric; even Vlad & Marielle Radick had no knowledge of this.

I'm not debating the how and the why of the charge being presented Jaroth, I said that already. I'm not disputing your view there bar one aspect.

If it was a matter for the Grand Council and not an internal Wolf one, why does Phelan spefically say otherwise. The same text you refer to also talks about Ulric wanting to take it to the grand council so its not Wolf vs Wolf, but Wolf vs Crusader. Why would it be Wolf vs Wolf if it was not an internal matter?

I treat Phelans view on Ulric with a lot of care but he is not defending him here, he is presenting why the Refusal War started and its ostensibly because the Crusaders were a threat.

Even if the charge was genocide of all the Clan warriors, this is still on Ulric's head, not Clan Wolfs. There was no need for Clan Wolf to get involved bar their hatred of Clan Jade Falcon and Ulric promising them that fight. Ulric played all the cards here, this is all off his bat.

He chose to take this to the Grand Council so it would be Wolf vs Crusader, then he baited the Falcons and thus was the refusal war. Thats what we know. We also know he thought he would lose, he planned on Phelan relocating.

Lets flip it around for a minute and consider the alternatives.

What if he quashed it in house as Phelan tells us he could and left it there. The Crusaders are still not going to break the Truce without Warden support. They might fight to the line as Ulric had permitted all Clans to do when he negotiated the Truce terms but Ulric can hardly be worried abut that, he negotiated it after all. More likely the Crusaders are not going to get far, Ulric has already sat them down with feuding Clans so thats going to consume then up.

Theres no more Clans coming into the IS, the other 'side' and any non invated Clans are going to have a voting bloc to stop that.

Ulric is going to get a few challenges, but he's apparently a tough guy so that doesn't phase him. Nothing changes.

Heck even if Ulric did die, a Crusader Il Khan is going to have the same problem reversed.

The 5 Wardens in the IS are not going to vote to go ahead, and if the new Il Khan tries to bring a Crusader Clan or two forward the Wardens and all the remaining Home Clans will block it, he's not getting any new troops to help the SJ / JF. So what does he do, he too has to respect the Truce and gear up accordingly.

Nothing is going change whether Ulric is Il Khan or not. There just simply isn't enough Crusader firepower to repudiate the Truce.

EDIT: I just rechecked Warriors of Kerensky definition of Loremaster and he only has the authority to lay charges against a Khan, not an Il Khan. There is no specific definition of the Loremaster to the Grand Coucnils role but seeing as it functions in all other regards as a Clan Loremaster (except to the Il Khan / Grand Council) this infers that only the Grand Council Loremaster can level charges against the Il Khan.

Edited by Craig Steele, 17 March 2014 - 06:36 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

If it was not why does Ulric say so? Because genocide against warriors reminds them of Clan Wolverine. He KNEW they would take it to the Grand Council. Yes as a Loremaster myself I know the role & function; he simply could have passed it on to the proper channel. Also remember Ulric was Khan of Clan Wolf before becoming ilKhan.

I also stated Ulric's reason for the whole Trial of Refusal was two fold. I stated it above.

[ManaValkyrie]

Craig Steele, on 17 March 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

(6) I do hope you mean ha ha amusing? In any case, Ulric is a major player and I do believe that much of his interaction with the BT world has been reported through rose coloured glasses. I get that alot of people don't want to look at the depth of complexity of the man, they soak up the headlines and move on but I think if we take a look at him with both his strengths and weaknesses laid bare, maybe we have a better appreciation or understanding of him. He is not a headline character and he offers a lot if people want to question the headlines.

For example, on at least two occassions Ulric appoints a Khan like a kingmaker, no other Khan has done that as I can see. Indeed, voting for your leader is one of the Bloodnames rights which Nicholas fostered upon them. Yet no one ever seems to ask why Ulric can get away with this flagrant breach of Clan culture and defy the traditions Nicholas himself.

But sure, there are plenty of Khans doing naughty stuff and plenty of other characters of the BT world that get rose coloured glasses. I can do Takashi Kurita if you want?

Yes it was the entertaining amusing and to be fair, there are plenty of characters through the virtue of BT books that have been 'rose' tinted, in fact almost all the 'main' line characters. Even the villians in a lot of respect for the almost stereotypical portraits they have been painted as for example, The Master and Katherine Steiner, although to be fair, at least with Katherine, the schemes and plots she was embroiled in were layered in subterfuge and machevellian.

But then BT like SW, suffered from a lot of character stereotyping within the books. It wasn't helped by the way that Fasa, left the which held more import over which with regards to lore, which is why a LOT of material is subjected to personal intepretation.

Especially when one person can write a statement, and write it in such a way that different people can draw different interpretaions and conclusions for the material.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 March 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

If it was not why does Ulric say so? Because genocide against warriors reminds them of Clan Wolverine. He KNEW they would take it to the Grand Council. Yes as a Loremaster myself I know the role & function; he simply could have passed it on to the proper channel. Also remember Ulric was Khan of Clan Wolf before becoming ilKhan.

I also stated Ulric's reason for the whole Trial of Refusal was two fold. I stated it above.

And here is the key point. Ulric says.

Lets say he was guilty, just for a moment. And think about the likely actions of a guilty man.

He knows he has been found out, and the punishment is likely his death. Sooner or later. He has only one chance to live, that he fight and win a Trial of Refusal. If he doubted his ability to win that, how can he stay alive? He needs someone else to fight for him obviously.

So what does he do, firstly he puts subtle pressure on two top notch warriors that he has personal favours owed from. He helped them into their positions of power and they trust him implicitly. Then he picks a fight that appeals to their emotions and watches the fur fly (so to speak). He can't do anymore, he must hope that they win so that he lives, but he has given himself the bext chance.

And Ulric was not a Khan of Clan Wolf when the indictment was delivered, he was charged as a bloodnamed warrior of Clan House, ergo within the Clan Wolf Loremaster juristiction. This is also the reason why Ulric could say "nah" because he was the Il Khan and outside of Loremasters reach but he choose to answer the charges as at the time, he thought he was putting an end to the Wolves Crusader moves.

That was the Loremasters whole trap, once Ulric had said he will answer the charges, and the Council assembled, he had to answer the third (however it was presented) and the Loremaster thought he had a case (which in the end the Grand Council agreed with). But the Loremaster of the Wolves cannot charge the Il Khan with genocide of other Clan warriors, he can only charge a warrior of Clan Wolf with genocide of Clan Wolf warriors.

There is no canon that says the matter had to go to the Grand Council and no canon that supports any other Clan needed to be involved in an internal Wolf matter. Ulric was the only one who thought it would go to the Grand Council and he knew he would be found guilty (maybe because he was?)

As I said before. Handled internally only two things can happen. Either Ulric loses his trial (I assume here the Wolves find him guilty as the council did) and doesn't show up for work. Or he wins his trial and it's never mentioned again. There are plenty examples of exactly this, Jade Falcon culling and Ice Hellions secret Trial are immediate examples.

Only one person wanted this to go outside of the Clan, the guilty party. Why?