74 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

OK after speaking with Tesunie, I have calmed down & taken a look at the posts. The timestamps do not match so either there was a bug as Tesunie suggests or something else happened. You are off the hook Craig.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 18 March 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

At least your FPS isn't sub 20

Still not as bad as sub 10.

[Craig Steele]

Someone asked about how voting in the Clans Grand council went so I thought I would assemble this table.

One thing to note is that the Grand Council was all individual voting, each Khan was expected to vote according to his / her own interpretations and beliefs. I will agree up front there is a difference between the theory and the reality of everything, but there was no "party vote" system in the Grand Council.

So I have split the Clans between 3 camps, based on Canon sources regarding the Khans / Clan around 2 timelines. The division is Warden, Crusader, and swinging which hopefully gives us some insight into the relative power pacts.

3052
Warden
Wolf x 2, Coyote x 2, Goliath Scorpians x 2, Steel Vipers x 2, Cloud Cobra x 2, Diamond Shark x 1
Total 11 firm votes of 34

Crusader
Jade Falcon x 2, Smoke Jaguars x 2, Ghost Bear x 2, Ice Hellions x 2, Star Adders x 2, Hells Horses x 2, Nova Cats x 2, Fire Mandrill x 2, Diamond Shark x 1
17 of 34 votes

On Ghost Bear, declared Crusader but both Khans are Warden. They could be depended on to vote Crusader if the matter did not impact them, but it would be hard to believe the Warden sentiment would be disregarded if the subject impacted CGB.

On Nova Cats, these guys are Ulric admirers and supporters as of 3052 although ostensibly in the Crusader camp at this time. Their ongoing feud with SJ and exposure to the IS combined with Ulric sympathy sees them move to Warden although the timing is not defined, so listed here as their apparent declared position.

Swinging Votes + details

Snow Raven x 2 - "Walked a fine line between Crusader and Warden camps." and later "... side with the Wardens in many Grand Council decisions" (pg 120 Warden Clans Source book)

Blood Spirits x 2 - Just didn't care apparently. Voted Crusader when the Invasion of Clan Space seemed realistic, then went back to York. Ostensibly detailed in the Crusader Source book but without displaying a Crusader outlook. Pack followers?

Clan Burrock x 2 - Canon does not reveal their affiliation but their side panel description and long standing feuds with Crusader Clans suggest Warden affiliation. They are also detailed in early formation as opponents of Nicholas again suggesting Warden tendencies. Listed here for lack of alternatives / details.

This then is the likely political lines of the Grand Council that found Ulric innocent. Crusaders have a clear ascendancy.

In 3057, the following movements can be discerned

Warden
Wolf x 2, Coyote x 2, Goliath Scorpians x 2, Steel Vipers x 2, Cloud Cobra's x 2, Snow Raven x 2, Nova Cats x 2, Diamond Sharks x 1
Total 15 votes of 34

Crusader
Jade Falcon x 2, Smoke Jaguars x 2, Ice Hellions x 2, Star Adders x 2, Hells Horses x 2, Fire Mandrill x 1
Total 11 votes of 34

Swinging Votes
Ghost Bear x 2 - now half relocated to Inner Sphere
Clan Burrock x 2 - as above
Blood Spirits x 2 - as above
Fire Mandrill x 1 - refer this under their sa Khan ... "traditionally he votes with the Homeworld Crusader agenda but, but at Khan Carrol's urging has occassionally abstained or even voted differently." pg 45 Crusader Clans Source book. Unspoken is why the Mandrills Crusader Khan is influencing her sa Khan this way?
Diamond Shark x 1 - Their Crusader Khan was moving back to the toumans natural affiliation, Warden.

This then is the likely Grand Council that found Ulric guilty of treason (genocide?) which was the trigger for the Refusal War.

As we can see, the Crusader are losing influence in the Grand Council on political lines.

I'll be upfront and declare there is no table in canon I have found disclosing this that I can quote. It is drawn from multiple source books. I am pretty confident it is correct (obviously) but happy to discuss any canon sources on individual Khans.

[ManaValkyrie]

With regards to the Grand Council Vote, given the fact you are also involved in the Not-Named-Clan discussion thread.

Ok, Ulric has been accused of committing Genocide, a hideous crime to the Clans, given that Clan life is set around not wasting resources including life. The last Group in Clan memory 'officially' accused of Genocide was the Not-Named-Clan.

Lets forget those debates about who nuked what and when but look at the average Clanners view at this point in the timeline. Officially the Not-Named-Clan, were blamed for a nuclear strike on the genetic repository of the Snow Ravens, and ultimately destroyed root and branch according to clan history.

At the time just prior to this the Not-Named-Clan and Snow Ravens were in dispute over resource rights, and had been arguing in the council along with the other Khans, and it was also according to most records, a fight that the Not-Named-Clan generally had a lot of sympathetic support over.

That support evaporated once Genocide was levelled at that clan. So from the viewpoint of the Clans, regardless of stances and such, they would be voting for or against the most significant crime that anyone could be accused of in clan history. And potentially the crusaders could have swung enough support even from the moderates/warden clans.

Ulric used his clan given rights to fight a trial of refusal, he could have heard the verdict and then fought a trial of refusal, but he also had the right to a trial of refusal against his accusers.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Exactly what I have been saying all the time.

[Craig Steele]

ManaValkyrie, on 19 March 2014 - 04:25 AM, said:

With regards to the Grand Council Vote, given the fact you are also involved in the Not-Named-Clan discussion thread.

Ok, Ulric has been accused of committing Genocide, a hideous crime to the Clans, given that Clan life is set around not wasting resources including life. The last Group in Clan memory 'officially' accused of Genocide was the Not-Named-Clan.

Lets forget those debates about who nuked what and when but look at the average Clanners view at this point in the timeline. Officially the Not-Named-Clan, were blamed for a nuclear strike on the genetic repository of the Snow Ravens, and ultimately destroyed root and branch according to clan history.

At the time just prior to this the Not-Named-Clan and Snow Ravens were in dispute over resource rights, and had been arguing in the council along with the other Khans, and it was also according to most records, a fight that the Not-Named-Clan generally had a lot of sympathetic support over.

That support evaporated once Genocide was levelled at that clan. So from the viewpoint of the Clans, regardless of stances and such, they would be voting for or against the most significant crime that anyone could be accused of in clan history. And potentially the crusaders could have swung enough support even from the moderates/warden clans.

Ulric used his clan given rights to fight a trial of refusal, he could have heard the verdict and then fought a trial of refusal, but he also had the right to a trial of refusal against his accusers.

Sure, except these discussions were not occuring in the Grand Council, this was a Clan Wolf internal matter. It was the Clan Wolf Council. I get the concern that it 'might' have gone outside of Clan Wolf (although we have canon examples of serious internal issues being kept secret) but no one wanted to loose their Clan. What I mean is, a Wolf warrior raising this outside of the Wolf Council was basically raising a vote of no confidence in his leadership, and runs the risk the Grand Council will find the Khans unfit to rule, which means absorbtion. No Clan Wolf warrior is going to risk that on a whim.

The Wardens were accendant and Ulric had plenty of allies, but the Kerensky heritage was also well regarded, many of his allies would have been tempted by the oportunity to absorb Clan Wolf. And in the background of the "Genocide" word which is now out, I submit it's highly likely that many of his allies would abandon the Wolves.

But even if it had, what then on the actual charge.

As I have shown, only one other Clan can make the acquasation. No matter how much the Crusaders might stamp their feet, they cannot force the Ghost Bears to make a complaint, and without a complaint it goes no where. If there Ghost Bears feel they have not been hard done by, it ends.

Would the Ghost Bears have made a complaint then, no way. They are half way through moving to the Inner Sphere, doing their own dodgy stuff. They don't want any attention on them at all and they certainly don't want see someone telling them to start reporting on where all their troops and supplies are as a new Il Khan would require.

Ulric might not have known the details of the Ghost Bears (I'll give him benefit of the doubt) but he certainly had to know they had Warden leanings, he was admiring them as far back as 3048 in canon.

All of which leads us to exactly what Phelan said, that Ulric could have quashed it there and then in Wolf Clan and even if he was challenged and won, no one could re state the charge, there is only one trial of refusal permitted.

From what we know of Clan culture, this is the logical sequence of events from the "Genocide" implication / word is.

Ulric says "nope, I'm Il Khan and I did what I did in performing my duties,. I am above you and will not answer this charge"
Loremaster says <ok or challenge, doesn't matter which, if Ulric dies its over, if he lives the sequence continues>
Word gets to Grand Council
Two things now happen (probably in this order but not neccessarily)
Crusader go to Ghost Bear and say "woah, you've been shafted. Present your case to Kael and an indictment will be issued.
Ghost Bear says, ummmm, thanks but no thanks. We don't have a complaint to make
Crusader Khans raise the matter informally in a council meeting and question the Clan Wolf's Khans right to rule because they did not deal with the Ulric matter <insert dodgy reason here>
Vote for Trial, probably goes against Clan Wolf

Now thats a logical chain of events. But Ulric skips all this and goes straight to the end. He's the one who submitted it to the council. He is the one that risked the obliteration of Clan Wolf, it was only Ulric accused, not Clan Wolf, when all he had to do was face the challenge and risk nothing but himself.

[ManaValkyrie]

Ok let me put it this way...

If Kerensky did it internally, and dealt with the matter, it would have been killed inside the clan and Ulric would have wiped the floor with Conal Ward in a CoE. However, he would still have had his own growing faction of crusaders continuing to chomp at the bit, threatening his own clans cohesiveness and potentially providing the other clans with a way to force the break of the truce.

Secondly if Kerensky had successfully overturned the charge in a Clan Council, he would still have been subjected to more ways to overturn the truce by both the Falcons and Jaguars. -The expression throw enough fecal matter and something will stick comes to mind-

From the above eventually something would have forced a break, and a renewed invasion would start and early, Ulric, never wanted to invade, is written as the man who could see what would happen, which is pretty much a repeat of the Amaris event in the IS. A level of bloodshed and violence that made the succession wars/pentagon wars look like a picnic by comparison.

He is always attributed as a long sighted man, a person who is thinking 4-5 moves ahead of everyone else in politics and strategy. So he used the sensational trial to smash the one crusader clan fighting force actually capable of operations to bits as his own trial of refusal. It basically derailed any hope of overturning the truce for a long time.

Especially when the other ardent crusader proponent was busy dealing with its own problems inside its OZ.

[Craig Steele]

ManaValkyrie, on 19 March 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Ok let me put it this way...

If Kerensky did it internally, and dealt with the matter, it would have been killed inside the clan and Ulric would have wiped the floor with Conal Ward in a CoE. However, he would still have had his own growing faction of crusaders continuing to chomp at the bit, threatening his own clans cohesiveness and potentially providing the other clans with a way to force the break of the truce.

Secondly if Kerensky had successfully overturned the charge in a Clan Council, he would still have been subjected to more ways to overturn the truce by both the Falcons and Jaguars. -The expression throw enough fecal matter and something will stick comes to mind-

From the above eventually something would have forced a break, and a renewed invasion would start and early, Ulric, never wanted to invade, is written as the man who could see what would happen, which is pretty much a repeat of the Amaris event in the IS. A level of bloodshed and violence that made the succession wars/pentagon wars look like a picnic by comparison.

He is always attributed as a long sighted man, a person who is thinking 4-5 moves ahead of everyone else in politics and strategy. So he used the sensational trial to smash the one crusader clan fighting force actually capable of operations to bits as his own trial of refusal. It basically derailed any hope of overturning the truce for a long time.

Especially when the other ardent crusader proponent was busy dealing with its own problems inside its OZ.

Yup, Yup, Yup. That's the headlines we are to believe. Although Ulric was able the handle the Wolf Crusaders before so I don't think that would have bothered him.

But as I have shown (hopefully ), even if the Crusaders did break the Truce, they did not have the horsepower to do anything about it. The Invading Clans are mostly Warden, they are (with Ulric's guidance or his inheritors Natasha / Phelan) going hedge and fudge and not commit. They WANT to protect the IS (well, kinda, but lets generalize for a moment), that's their thing. If the Crusaders go it alone, the Wardens fall on them in full fury.

Ulric knew this, he knew that Wardens were ascending in the Grand Council, and he knew they had a majority force in the Invasion Zone. Ergo, when he started the war he knew the Crusaders posed no real threat to the House Lords, Truce or not, there was no great conspiracy he need to kill off.

I'll agree that a Crusader Il Khan may have been the start (except for Elias, I have doubts about that lad) but the Truce only had 10 years left to run. Given where the grand council stood, even if a Crusader Il Khan got in he is going to struggle to re activate the invasion.

Hows he going to do it? The Wardens are going to say "but we can't boss, gotta garrison these worlds" and the new Il Khan is going to say "right then, we'll bring up more Clans" and the Wardens (combined with those left behind) say "oh no, this is our IS, block that vote. Il Khan, you do your job with what you have" and the Il Khan says, right, lets go then and the Wardens are going to say "but we can't boss, gotta garrison these worlds".......... (note, insert whatever dodgy reason as required, it's for demonstration only)

Unless something dramatic happens to change the will of the Wardens in the IS (and a Crusader Il Khan is that dramatic for them), they are already stopping the Crusaders without a shot. But still Ulric picks a fight?

[ManaValkyrie]

Okay, regardless i think you missed part of my meaning here.

Ulric is a voice of sanity, reason and maybe an idealist with regard to the intepretation of the 'Kerensky' Vision. OR he is a traitor dependent upon your personal views of the game world. Personally I lean to the former, although i don't agree that everything he did was right or wrong.

However, one thing Ulric was is capable of seeing things from a much wider perspective and generationally, at least thats how the written works and sourcebooks come across to me.

Craig Steele, on 19 March 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Yup, Yup, Yup. That's the headlines we are to believe. Although Ulric was able the handle the Wolf Crusaders before so I don't think that would have bothered him.

Ok my point specifically here is that the clans took somewhere in the region of 100-120 worlds during the five waves of the invasion I believe, they fought in combat unseen by the Clans for generations. They fought battles like there historical legends and blooded themselves against the best of the Inner Sphere. For those that had yet to get that frontline time or those coming out of the Sibko's, which given the increase in available resources to the clans, the increase in the population pools and the meant that the clans which already had added IS worlds to there pools were going to have an exponential increase in their available military might.

Ulric saw that, he also saw that the increased waiting would mean that more and more of the younger generations of warriors would swing towards the crusader camp, not just in his own Clan but in lots of clans. (The Ghost Bears actually solved this for their clan by completely moving to the IS).

By this i mean that prior to the Invasion the listed number of Clan worlds was somewhere around 40, shared amongst the 17 Clans, and had produced a society and military capable of smashing pretty much anything the IS could throw at them. And that was 4-7 Clans, using only part of their resources.

Considering the wealth that the IS worlds offered compared to the Clan Homeworlds, the sudden increase of all those planets in the Clan OZ's would affect all Clans, warden or crusader alike, the Clans regardless of viewpoint on poltics, are identical in many respects. By there very natures they have to be competitive to survive. In other words, the sudden increase in the available resources of the 4 then 7 Invading clans would affect the survival thinking of all the other clans.

Not just the Clans as a whole, the Clans leaderships were traditionally warden or crusader with clan members split upon viewpoints, but over time the wealth and growth that was going to happen with such a huge influx of materials, resources and worlds would have actually in the longer run pushed more into the Crusader camp.

[Craig Steele]

ManaValkyrie, on 19 March 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Not just the Clans as a whole, the Clans leaderships were traditionally warden or crusader with clan members split upon viewpoints, but over time the wealth and growth that was going to happen with such a huge influx of materials, resources and worlds would have actually in the longer run pushed more into the Crusader camp.

How do you come to this conclusion?.

Clans that were Crusader were actually going to Warden views (Ghost Bear the most clear example), exposure to the IS was not pushing forces towards the Crusader camp, it was pushing them away, Home Clans as well.

Diamnond Shark is another example where far from wanting to destroy the IS, they wanted to maintain it (kinda) to exploit it with it's mercantile culture.

If you're making an argument for the longer term, how long? The Truce only has 10 years to run and Ulric was clearly comfortable with that timeline, he negotiated it. The Invading Clans lower castes certainly benfitted numberwise from the resources of the IS, but their toumans still heavily relied up Trueborn warriors (in SJ's case ONLY Truebron). There was no straight line military build up on the basis of IS resources.

[ManaValkyrie]

Ok,

Ill explain bits in terms, the original 20 founding Clans were comprised of a total of about 800 warriors, hence the similar number of Clan bloodnames. These clan forces, then during Operation Klondike captured and incorporated the Pentagon worlds, where they also, incorporated additional forces through bondsmen.etc, so after Klondike you had a boom in numbers for all the Clans in general. (I am talking Generalities here for a reason)

Okay over the next 200 years, the Clan homeworlds end up expanding around the region until the Clans now control approximately 40 worlds prior to the Invasion of the Inner Sphere, with those 40 worlds which works out at roughly 2.35 planets per clan (Yes some have slightly more, others less control of planets, but i am doing a Generic Analysis of the Clans as a whole).

Each of these worlds, by all statements in general are less resource rich than most Inner Sphere planets by all accounts as well. Yet from these worlds the Clans built up there military strength, resource strength and improved there technological level in some areas.

Now take into account that in terms of frontline Galaxies, the average number per clan is around 7 Galaxies, excluding PGC's/2nd Line Galaxies. Now given that a single cluster in terms of comparison can be anything from 20-150 points so anywhere from an understrength IS Battalion to a reinforced regiment. And most front line clusters sit at around a regiment size for comparison, meaning that your average Galaxy has 3-4 regiments or clusters. So the frontline fighting force of your average clan is approximately 21-28 regiments.

So 21-28 regiments (Deliberately in IS terms) supported by somewhere in the region of 2.35 planets per clan, as its main offensive capability. So between 17 clans your looking at somewhere in the region of a total force of 357-476 regiments supported by 40 Planets.

Now compare that to your average IS house, which has literally Hundreds of worlds in the example of the Draconis Combine, its estimated at roughly 350 worlds and its military comprised of 76 regiments (Named and Active), fair enough you could probably increase that somewhat, but, the point is that now Approximately 76 regiments (Not a fully exhaustive list - being conservative i would double that number.) supported by 350 worlds.

-Fair enough that doesn't take into account mercenary commands or militias control by the house at that time- but i did discount second line clan units.

So using the minimum figures the average clan world supports 357 regiments/40 = 8.925 regiments, we will call it 9 for simplicity sake. Given that the Clans added somewhere in the region of 100-120 worlds to Clan control between the periphery and the Inner Sphere planets, being conservative call it a 100, thats an additional 900 regiments added to the overall clan military over time...

Ok, you said that the Clan military hadn't really expanded as such, well it did, but not significantly at that point, you had an increased sibko count to replace front line losses and increase garrison forces, you also add in the bondsmen taken that can be used to bolster your second line units (And most clans did), also Sibkin, in many clans failing ToP's rather than being relegated a caste, can to reduce waste be used to further bolster second line units. (Especially as waste is abhorrent to the Clans)

Almost all clans had by the point in time we are discussing had rebuilt there Toumans back to pre-invasion strengths.

Yes, you are not wrong about the Leaderships views in the Clans, about many factions becoming more Warden minded. However you have to take into account that for your average Clan warrior on trialing out of the Sibko's they have about a life cycle of 10 years in which to prove themselves and secure their legacy, which means realistically a prime of 5 years. (Hence the charge of 3 generations against Ulric)

So factor in the increased number of trueborn mechwarriors filling out the toumans, the increasing need/desire by the younger mechwarriors to prove themselves and what adding that much real estate, resources and such would do for the clans, not just the ones already in the IS but the home clans as well, as the OZs were now clan space and could be trialed for possesion too.

This meant that by the 10 year point realistically, more of those younger mechwarriors would be supporting the crusader viewpoint, mentioned more than a few times in sourcebooks, that the younger generations, having just missed the combat they were born and raised for, would eventually call for a CoE and gain leadership which would push the clans back into a more heavily crusader controlled council.

Even if the truce held for 15 years, the invasion would restart, and this time the Clans would have to increase the number of forces to continue, but given the way the Clan Society is set up, there military might would roll the Inner Sphere flat, because they would continue to out expand the IS.

These are just simple looks at the differences in clan forces, make ups and societies when compared to the Inner Sphere. The way there caste systems are set up, the way they utilize resources and continously reduce waste means that ultimately they could simply out-expand the IS.

With regards to the Diamond Sharks from your commentry, yes there merchant caste was pretty extactic about the new resources, income and trading. But even then, someone would eventually realise that conquering more of the IS would increase market availibilty and wealth.

For those 'Home' Clans, they would by virtue of the Clan competition and drive for survival eventually challenge for possesion of IS worlds in the OZ's and therefore opened themselves up for expansion. Especially as the initial operations in reality added so much real estate to the 7 Clans that invaded that they would have offered bids for garrison support.etc eventually anyway.

[CyclonerM]

I am not sure about how many new warriors the Invading Clans could get from their OZs.. After all, they are all "barbarians".. Phelan Kell and Ragnar are an exception..

p.s. regiments numbers from Lethal Heritage (Phelan's interrogation):
FRR: 16 regiments + mercenaries.
DC: unknown, more than 100 regiments.
FWL: 70 regiments probably.
FedSuns: 103 regiments
LyrCom: 153 regiments.

[Craig Steele]

ManaValkyrie, on 20 March 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

<snip>

Sure, the IS armies are "larger", but they also have a lot more space to protect too, and thus distance becomes an issue and a major one at that.

The forces garrisoning New Avalon are not going to appear of the Tukayyid line over night, or Arteus tomorrow.

Force size is one thing, concentrating it for strategic and tactical effectiveness is another altogether.

Also, you seem to be discounting the human factor. The Clans simply don't have pilots to support your calculated material strength even if that did eventuate (although thats a massive stretch imo as the resources you are citing as available to upgrade the touman are 1,000's of light years away form the factories that churn out the machines)

A Clan pilot doesn't "graduate" until 20 years old, the Invasion was a 'surprise' call in 3048. Even if every clan doubled / tripled their Iron Womb's that second the invasion was called, it's still 3068 (after the Truce expires) before there are pilots to get in the machines you are calculating as available.

Given the Clans thought 5 Clans with 3 Galaxies each was overkill for the Invasion, only the most forward thinking of Clans would have prepared for the eventuality of massive casualities / expansion.

Clan Jade Falcon is the only Clan that demonstrated (in canon) a burst of pilots which occurred in 3057 / 58 (after the Refusal War) and given we know from novels these are not 10 year olds, their 'seeding' was significantly before the Outbound Light arrived. Their purpose could not have been related to the Invasion. The pilots are described as young so if you adopt 17 / 18 as their age, they were seeded in 3040.

According to the Objective Raids Source book (this has Sarna March included so is pre 3057) Clan Jade Falcon has exactly zero major manufacturing facilities in their OZ. The Jag's and Novacats are sharing 3 plants on one system, Schuyler. If we assume this holds true for 3055, the last 3 years all those resources you are making a 6 months journey back to the Home Worlds and only in quantities limited to that Clans cargo capacity which is hugely reduced by the time factor.

What I mean is, an IS Mammoth carting ore from planet A to planet B one jump away makes a round trip say every 5 weeks (7 days to jump, 7 days to planet, 7 days unload / load, 7 days to jump, 7 days back to planet A). Thats 8k tons per trip and circa 80k tons of ore delivered to the factory each year.

The Clan Mammoth delivers to its factory in a year 8k tons (one trip).

EDIT: A Mammoth is 8k per deck, 5 decks. The comprison is still relevant, but numbers should be 400k vs 40k

I can concede that the IS planets were 'richer' but translating that wealth into military advantage, both human and material, was a long way off, and certainly not evident in 3057.

At this stage, the Home Clans were not permitted to trial for OZ planets, that's a mechanism Vlad introduces for Hell's Horses much later but even then, Trials have to be agreed. Even Osis had to consent to the Great Refusal before it went ahead. A clan can show up (needless to say that would be a massive logistic exercise) and say "we claim this planet" but if the defenders say nope don't agree, they will fight sure (well, probably) but win or lose the planet is not surrendered.

Lets say Star Adders (for example) won a Wolf planet. Next Grand Council meeting the Adders are going to get shouted down and all the Home Clans plus the IS Clans are going to vote them out and punish them (somehow, it's theoritical). Gosh if the Home Clan was a weak one with a major feud, disobeying the Il Khan orders / Grand Councils will might be seen as 'unfit to rule' and they become a target for absorbtion.

There is no basis (in canon) for a Home Clan to go into the OZ without Grand Council sanction or the tactic consent of an Invading Clan (which Ulric knew was not forthcoming from the Jade Falcons or the Smoke Jaguars).

On the Crusader Warden thing, the politics of a Clan is largely drawn by its culture. Steel Vipers are not Warden because their Khan says so, they are Warden because Mercer laid it down as a foundation of their Clan 200 years ago. Diamond Sharks have a Crusader Khan, but the Clan is Warden because of it's mercantile outlook, not conquest. (he eventually resigns because he knows he does not serve the Clans interests well).

This has been the case for hundreds of years so I don't understand why a new generation of warriors will automatically be Crusader? They are going to be products of their culture just like there fore fathers were, and align similarly. An argument might be inferred that a higher percent are either way over the next 10 years but as of 3057, the Wardens were very much in ascendancy and the Crusaders loosing influence.

Ergo, where is the Crusader Conspiracy? What was Ulric scared of? The Wardens have more votes in the Grand Council, stronger Warden forces in the IS and the Crusaders that theoritcally could threaten Terra had no military capabilitiy to do so.

Whether the Truce was repudiated or not, the headline Ulric makes that taking out the Jade Falcons saves the IS doesn't appear to hold up, they were already saved.

Edited by Craig Steele, 20 March 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 20 March 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

I am not sure about how many new warriors the Invading Clans could get from their OZs.. After all, they are all "barbarians".. Phelan Kell and Ragnar are an exception..

p.s. regiments numbers from Lethal Heritage (Phelan's interrogation):
FRR: 16 regiments + mercenaries.
DC: unknown, more than 100 regiments.
FWL: 70 regiments probably.
FedSuns: 103 regiments
LyrCom: 153 regiments.

Yes and no on the barbarian thing. Certainly Phelan and Ragnor are the headlines but Clan JF took a few bondsmen from the Blackjack training battalion as they super impressed by those warriors. There's a reference a young cadet staged an improptu trial for his familes home (can't recall the result but I assume he won the trial, then lost a later battle as the planet fell). For a JF to even permit the trial implies a level of honour accorded, result not withstanding.

There are a number of other examples where JF and GB take bondmans as I recall, would have to do some checking though.

But broadly speaking sure, the IS warriors were not even close to the skill of the Clanners (technology notwithstanding) and were largely dismissed.

[Edward Mattlov]

Craig Steele, on 20 March 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

Yes and no on the barbarian thing. Certainly Phelan and Ragnor are the headlines but Clan JF took a few bondsmen from the Blackjack training battalion as they super impressed by those warriors. There's a reference a young cadet staged an improptu trial for his familes home (can't recall the result but I assume he won the trial, then lost a later battle as the planet fell). For a JF to even permit the trial implies a level of honour accorded, result not withstanding.

There are a number of other examples where JF and GB take bondmans as I recall, would have to do some checking though.

But broadly speaking sure, the IS warriors were not even close to the skill of the Clanners (technology notwithstanding) and were largely dismissed.

Well, there was Mechwarrior Ciro from the Animated Series (which was made canon with the sourcebook).