76 replies to this topic

[Lukoi Banacek]

Craig Steele, on 21 March 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

So wait, are you saying Clan Ghost Bear let them off twice?

Once when they left the Clan Worlds, and again by falsifying the DNA testing?

I'm saying once is enough and that here is clear evidence that some portion of Wolverine survived (at least initially), nullifying any further "what-if's" in my opinion.

Sea Foxes were merchants of information as well as goods and I suspect they knew this information to be true pretty firmly, although like all "canon" sources, they left it imprecise enough to keep it interesting

[Craig Steele]

Lukoi, on 21 March 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

I'm saying once is enough and that here is clear evidence that some portion of Wolverine survived (at least initially), nullifying any further "what-if's" in my opinion.

Sea Foxes were merchants of information as well as goods and I suspect they knew this information to be true pretty firmly, although like all "canon" sources, they left it imprecise enough to keep it interesting

OK, sure. But 3134 is a long time after Wolverine left Clan Space.

I kinda thought everyone was already accepting that some of Wolverine had got away. "Poor Book keeping" being the most obvious cover up line ever invented for the military efficient culture that permeated through Clan culture. There are plenty of canon sources that specify Clan Ghost bear most certainly let them go from Clan Space.

So why is that guy so upset in 3134?

[shameless]

I do not recall if it's been pointed out, but in the Blake Documents they Mention the McKenna Class warship SLS Zughoffer Weir.

The author mentions the ship as a Wolverine vessel, traveling back to the Inner Sphere.

This ship would later become WBS Blake's Sword one of the warships used to bombard Tukkayid during the opening of the Jihad.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Craig Steele, on 21 March 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

OK, sure. But 3134 is a long time after Wolverine left Clan Space.

I kinda thought everyone was already accepting that some of Wolverine had got away. "Poor Book keeping" being the most obvious cover up line ever invented for the military efficient culture that permeated through Clan culture. There are plenty of canon sources that specify Clan Ghost bear most certainly let them go from Clan Space.

So why is that guy so upset in 3134?

I'm just throwing it out as another source of evidence. To me, it's simply more compelling than the circumstantial arguments often brought up about the Wolvies. As for the story above, it's about Clan Sea Fox internal politics gone awry Hunters of the Deep is one of the Dark Age novels that takes place during that timeframe.

[Craig Steele]

Lukoi, on 21 March 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

I'm just throwing it out as another source of evidence. To me, it's simply more compelling than the circumstantial arguments often brought up about the Wolvies. As for the story above, it's about Clan Sea Fox internal politics gone awry Hunters of the Deep is one of the Dark Age novels that takes place during that timeframe.

Oh OK.

Well I think canon is pretty categorical that some Wolverines got away from the pentagon. There are numerous references as to exactly that from multiple sources.

Whether they were / were not the Minnesota Tribe, did / did not get refuge from Comstar, became / did not become the Word of Blake craziness is (in canon) all speculation / conspiracy afaik.

Unless ofc there is canon that Ghost Bear falsified the DNA testing after WoB is defeated, if so it all becomes very clear.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Craig Steele, on 21 March 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

Oh OK.

Well I think canon is pretty categorical that some Wolverines got away from the pentagon. There are numerous references as to exactly that from multiple sources.

Most are speculative. Few are treated as fact. The Sea Fox characterizing it as fact is one of the few credible, canonical references I've found.

But yea...vague was how the writers/owners liked it. Left room for fun little twists in future novels and sourcebooks.

[Craig Steele]

Lukoi, on 21 March 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Most are speculative. Few are treated as fact. The Sea Fox characterizing it as fact is one of the few credible, canonical references I've found.

But yea...vague was how the writers/owners liked it. Left room for fun little twists in future novels and sourcebooks.

I seem to remember a Ghost Bear source that outright says ,"yup, we watched em leave"

I'll look it up

[Lukoi Banacek]

Craig Steele, on 21 March 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

I seem to remember a Ghost Bear source that outright says ,"yup, we watched em leave"

I'll look it up

Good hunting

[Jaroth Corbett]

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 22 March 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

Curse you Jaroth

I haven't got home yet

jk

[_Comrade_]

Wasn't there another clan that was annihilated Clan Widow Maker i believe? Also i believe that clan wolf annihilated them as well and acquired their blood names. Also the not name clan is so despised that when the clans captured the medium mech Wolverine they renamed it

[Craig Steele]

Grimwill, on 22 March 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

Wasn't there another clan that was annihilated Clan Widow Maker i believe? Also i believe that clan wolf annihilated them as well and acquired their blood names. Also the not name clan is so despised that when the clans captured the medium mech Wolverine they renamed it

Wolverine was first to 'disappear' - annihilated by Clan Wolf.
Widowmaker was next, absorbed by Clan Wolf
Mongoose was 3rd to go, absorbed by Clan Smoke Jaguar
Smoke Jaguar next, absorbed by various after SLDF destroyed touman
Then NovaCats - Abjured and banned from the Clans
Then Burrock, absorbed by the Star Adders

There was a Wolverine II (SLDF Royal Mech) but never a Wolverine IIC

After the Wolverines were wiped, ALL Clans destroyed their Wolverine mechs as part of the purge.

Later, a mech was designed to fill the same role as the Wolverine in combat (presumably after destroying them all they realised they still needed something to do that job). It was called the Hellhound (conjuruer). There is a Comstar sourc that incorrectly identifies this mech as the Wolverine IIC but it is not.

Edited by Craig Steele, 22 March 2014 - 07:40 PM.

[_Comrade_]

Craig Steele, on 22 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

Wolverine was first to 'disappear' - annihilated by Clan Wolf.
Widowmaker was next, absorbed by Clan Wolf
Mongoose was 3rd to go, absorbed by Clan Smoke Jaguar
Smoke Jaguar next, absorbed by various after SLDF destroyed touman
Then NovaCats - Abjured and banned from the Clans
Then Burrock, absorbed by the Star Adders

There was a Wolverine II (SLDF Royal Mech) but never a Wolverine IIC

After the Wolverines were wiped, ALL Clans destroyed their Wolverine mechs as part of the purge.

Later, a mech was designed to fill the same role as the Wolverine in combat (presumably after destroying them all they realised they still needed something to do that job). It was called the Hellhound (conjuruer). There is a Comstar sourc that incorrectly identifies this mech as the Wolverine IIC but it is not.

Ok, i remember reading that Widowmaker was the clan that killed Nicholas Kerensky. Where it was Nicholas vs one of the khans from widowmaker. And that by doing that it made the clans even more united behind to defeat widowmaker.

BTW it was kind of like giving a taste of their own medicine when Jade Falcon tried to absorb the Wolf after the clan invastion and the trail of refusal between those two clans. I know it ended in a stalemate and the brief jade wolves didn't last long, but it's kind of like Jade Falcon was like "well the wolf absorb so many clans...i guess we'll absorb them now"

[Craig Steele]

Grimwill, on 22 March 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

Ok, i remember reading that Widowmaker was the clan that killed Nicholas Kerensky. Where it was Nicholas vs one of the khans from widowmaker. And that by doing that it made the clans even more united behind to defeat widowmaker.

BTW it was kind of like giving a taste of their own medicine when Jade Falcon tried to absorb the Wolf after the clan invastion and the trail of refusal between those two clans. I know it ended in a stalemate and the brief jade wolves didn't last long, but it's kind of like Jade Falcon was like "well the wolf absorb so many clans...i guess we'll absorb them now"

LOL, Well this is one of my all time favourite conspiracies of the BT world tbh.

So bascially, Wolf and Widowmaker hate each, and they end up having a trial over some such.

Nicholas is a Wolf (he's given them his genetic material etc etc) but is ostensibly an 'impartial' referee for this trial.

Widowmaker was an ally of Clan Wolverine, and doesn't like Nicholas's dictatorship style.

Alledgedly (according to Clan Wolf Sources), Widowmaker break the rules of the Trial and we are supposed to believe that the referee(nicholas) walks his mech into a live fire crossfire and gets taken out by Widowmaker fire. Then the Wolf warriors go psycho and tear the Widowmakers a new one.

What's not commentated on is interesting.

Why does the Il Khan step into the CoE, this is the only time in canon that I can recall this happening. What did he hope to achieve with his physical presence. It reads as if he is the school headmaster going to pick up two rascals by their collars which considering its mech to mech combat is unrealistic to say the least.

Why doesn't he use his radio / comms to shut the trial down if the rules had been broken, he is the Il Khan after all. One order and its done right?

How does the fire get attributed to a Widowmaker warrior, BEFORE any analysis of gun cams etc can be done. Who makes this call? Not the Il Khan (he is dead) and not the Widowmakers (they are about to be dead)

So yeah, it's a snapshot from one side that to me at least, leaves a lot more questions than answers.

As for Wolf, well they only absorbed one Clan, Widowmaker. Wolverine was an Annihilation (think killing or sterilising everyone that was a member of Clan Wolverine) but they didn't complete the job, quite a few got away which leads to other conspiracy stories.

[CyclonerM]

I remember a full Star of Widowaker warriors step in the CoE to defend their Khan vs Khan Jerome Winson. If they did such a thing, (which may or may not be an order from the Widowmaker Khan) then i do not see why the IlKhan should not (be allowed) to step into the circle to protect the Khan. After all, when Zellbrigen is broken it becomes a free for all, and especially in case of such a disonhorable action, i realize he may have wanted to step in (he had a hate for ambushes, remember DeChevalier) and maybe a radio order might not have stopped them in time..

[Craig Steele]

CyclonerM, on 23 March 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

I remember a full Star of Widowaker warriors step in the CoE to defend their Khan vs Khan Jerome Winson. If they did such a thing, (which may or may not be an order from the Widowmaker Khan) then i do not see why the IlKhan should not (be allowed) to step into the circle to protect the Khan. After all, when Zellbrigen is broken it becomes a free for all, and especially in case of such a disonhorable action, i realize he may have wanted to step in (he had a hate for ambushes, remember DeChevalier) and maybe a radio order might not have stopped them in time..

Yeah, so says Clan Wolf. But there's other scenarios that are just as likely.

There is not a lot of canon about it and what we have is one sided.

So it remains a bit of a mystery

[Joshua McEvedy]

The story of Clan Wolverine, i.e. the "Not-Named Clan" has indeed been told by Blaine Lee Pardoe in his outstanding four-part novel Betrayal of Ideals. It was published only at Battlecorps but is currently hard to find.

http://www.sarna.net...rayal_of_Ideals

http://www.solaris7....nInfo.asp?ID=46

http://bg.battletech...,27831.180.html

Blaine was a serious, well-regarded founding writer for FASA before moving on, and so his stories are rock solid canon. Here's some more from Blaine himself:

http://bpardoe.blogs...-never-was.html

http://bpardoe.blogs...flashbacks.html

I'm not sure that Battleforce still has it up, but perhaps you can contact Blaine directly and ask for a PDF copy?

http://www.blainepardoe.com/3101.html

The long and short of it is that Wolverine Khan Sarah McEvedy was personally betrayed by an insane Nicholas Kerensky while Clan Wolverine itself was framed by Khan Cal Jorgensson of Clan Widowmaker, which was the real cuplrit in the nuking of the Snow Raven repository. The Snow Ravens were quiet Wolverine allies and Sarah was caught in the explosion, just as her command ship was taking off. She survived but was badly burned. Kerensky captured and tortured her, but apparently could not bring himself to execute her.

The Wolverines fleet almost made it back to the Inner Sphere, but Kerensky caught up to them at Barbados and wiped most of it and all of the front-line troops out in a climatic battle there, in which SaKhan Franklin Hallis was executed after Kerensky exposed the Widowmakers' treachery to him. Trish Ebon, heading up a small scouting fleet separate form the main force, became the new Khan, but apparently Kerensky dropped Sarah off at Hallis' grave before heading back to the Clan homeworlds, leaving her and the returning Ebon to lead the surviving few Wolverines (about a regiment in strength) back to the Inner Sphere as the "Star League in Exile," a.k.a. the Minnesota Tribe.

Evidently, there were other isolated groups of Wolverines that did not quite make it back. These included the Umayyads at Nueva Castille and others later encountered during mysterious incidents in and around the Periphery during the 2nd Secession War period.

In the meantime, Kerensky ordered all traces and mention of Wolverine removed from Clan lore, re-wrote the history of what happened, and also "doctored" the video footage of McEvedy's final confrontation with the Council to make it appear as if she was the bad actor in the whole sordid story, which is the version that you still find across the online Battletech universe today.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

Edited by Joshua McEvedy, 23 March 2014 - 05:29 AM.

[Joshua McEvedy]

Fyrwulf, on 18 March 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

It's come out that the Ravens actually nuked their own repository. I used to think of the Ravens as extraordinary pilots but basically harmless, but now I think of them as Inglorious ********.

According to Pardoe, and he should know since he wrote most of the early Clan history for FASA, it was the Widowmakers who were ultimately behind the nuking (which was intended for the Wolverine capital city), even though the Snow Ravens accidentally did it to themselves.

Edited by Joshua McEvedy, 23 March 2014 - 05:46 AM.

[Joshua McEvedy]

Craig Steele, on 21 March 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

So wait, are you saying Clan Ghost Bear let them off twice?

Once when they left the Clan Worlds, and again by falsifying the DNA testing?

At the end of Betrayal of Ideals, a Wolverine scientist absorbed by the Ghost Bears deliberately taints their warrior DNA with Wolverine DNA. Once it is discovered what he did, the Ghost Bear Khan has to order an entire generation of his warriors (with the Wolverine DNA) to commit suicide to avoid a Trial of Annilihilation from the other Clans.

[Appogee]

I'm loving all this lore. Thanks everyone who is contributing to the thread.