247 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Okay... We all know the c-bill nerf was invoked following the injection of 12-man under the premise that it was done so to re-balance the average net profit. Argument being that with additional participants and an assortment of assists, the lose would be mitigated by increased ancillary profits.

We all also know without premium time and premium mechs... our average net was reduced anywhere from 30% to 50% depending upon which class of mechs one pilots...

Obviously PGIs concern was that at the previous profit accrual rate, the inclusion of 12-man would create a profit rate that was too liberal and as a result would stagnate motivating factors to buy into premium time and premium mechs...

I will admit, I don't fault them... It seemed like sound logic and at one time, I believed it was was in the best interest of the game.

That said... I think it has fostered an undesirable consequence.... “New-user experience stagnation”.

I think PGI may have over-estimated the motivating factor of the nerf and instead of driving sales of premium time and premium mechs, they may have instead created too much friction on the “free side”, and soured the experience of new users who cannot progress far enough into the experience to see the value of premium time and premium mechs. - Double-edge sword?

In short… In an effort to motivate players to spend more money, they may have instead disenfranchised new users.

Obviously there is a fine line to walk on this. PGI doesn’t want to give away the milk, when players might want to buy the cow… But right now the cow is ferreted away in an ivory tower where you can walk the 200 floors to peek at it or you can pay a kings ransom to ride the slow escalator…

I agree that PGI did need to re-balance the economy post 12-man… That said, I think they might have been a tad heavy-handed and as a result may have placed too heavy a burden on new players.

TL;DR: “Meh” taste and less filling is not going to motivate new players to invest in MW:O… Particularly if they need to harvest the hops for the brewer.

[Turist0AT]

I agree, this game is not new user frendly. But that should their statistics show. Unless ppl are throwing money at the game and keep PGI happy.

[DaZur]

Turist0AT, on 18 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

I agree, this game is not new user frendly. But that should their statistics show. Unless ppl are throwing money at the game and keep PGI happy.

That's the thing... net sales may not necessarily be a good metric to evaluate the success of new players.

Players like myself, who have been here from closed beta and have bought into PGI precarious MW:O vision, do in fact likely vest an awful lot of money into the game. In short I believe it's a fair assertion that the wallets of a few (and some might argue deranged) "carry hard" for those who cannot or will not...

That said, right now I am inclined to argue that for brand-new players, particularly those who are not necessarily steeped in the lore and canon... MW:O may presently be too steep a mountain to roll boulders up and down.

(I'm going to keep using silly metaphors, similes, euphemisms and, parallels until someone makes me stop)

Edited by DaZur, 18 November 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[malibu43]

I am not a "new" player, but I consider myself a "casual" player. I mostly PUG.

The problem for me is that (without community warfare or anything "bigger") there were two reasons I played: 1) the fun of actual combat, and 2) grinding out CB to buy new mechs.

1) We've had the same (basic) game modes for over a year now and that has become old. Factor in that some of the maps have gotten bigger and the (same, basic) game modes allow for cap wins, and sometimes the combat just isn't that fun... Don't get me wrong - sometimes it is. But, nothing kills the fun like spending 10 minutes trying to find the enemy/fight on Teratherma just to have the game end with a cap and 0 damage done. That doesn't happen all the time, but it does once in a while.

2) Problem #1 wasn't that big of a deal as long as I saw some CB at the end of the match and was that much closer to getting a shiny new *whatever*. But now I get 25K CB. Even a lot of wins I end up with 60K. Bottom line: the amount of time it takes to grind out enough CB to buy a new mech is ridiculous.

So, the combat has become stale and the rewards aren't enough to make me feel like I'm getting anywhere. I could buy some MC to get my new mech sooner, but why? Just so I can use that mech in the boring game modes that I'm already tired of?

Also, I often have good, well fought matches that take over 10 minutes. Even if I do a decent job on my own, we may lose. I get 50K CB. Wow. That's it?

Bottom line - I have a lot less fun and get much less satisfaction out of playing than I did a year or 6 months ago, and the C-Bill nerf played a part in that (even if it was just part of a crutch that was making up for lack of other reasons to play the game). As a result, I find other ways to spend my time that are more satisfying.

Edited by malibu43, 19 November 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[Ecto Cooler]

What should address concerns with new players should come with UI 2.0 -- the ability to create and sell bundles.

I think anyone willing to spend money on the game saw the value of the Phonenix packages, it would be nice to have similar packages available on a regular basis for new and old players.

If I can start a game and see a "Starter Bundle" for $50 or whatever, I'll probably buy it assuming I like that game. This way you reduce that initial grind by giving the player some decent content to start out with.

[Threat Doc]

Very well-spoken; that is not something you run into often on these forums, so kudos to you, DaZur, and thank you.

I hate to say this, but PGI -rather than using Trial 'Mechs on their own- needs to give a 'Mech of 75 tons or less to every new player that signs up. Yes, a free 'Mech. This is something they can build up on their own, that is unique to their way of doing things that they can earn money for and upgrade as they see fit. The biggest part of any past MechWarrior computer game has come from people being able to put together, within the rules of the game, their own creation, to try things out for themselves. The fact PGI does NOT give everyone a starter 'Mech, which they can well afford, since it's only code, not real-world assets, is where the heavy-handedness comes in. That would be like withholding the ability to make a character in one's long-sought-after MMORPG until you've played other characters; silly, frankly.

Running all of these sales like PGI does, whether they're in it for the money or not, is a humongous turn-off, as well. In general, when I receive a notification concerning a sale, I ignore it, at least, and most typically I scoff at it, and once or twice I have become angry. Ridiculous business practice. They need to have their sales, but fewer and farther between, and they need to put up other things like game construction news, in-game team vs team news, or Inner Sphere news. Changes are supposed to be coming with UI 2.0, we'll just have to wait to see what those are.

Finally, if PGI would finally make the roles truly unique, so each stands out from the others, but each is necessary to make fights work better, and then get an article out about that, and invite everyone back to play, to have that variety available would be a boon.

The economy is the last thing on my mind, and something I rarely look at. I literally do not play this game as a grind; I play this game so I can learn tactics, so I can become a better pilot, gunner, and tactician. The moment I start playing this game to grind up my next efficiency, module, variant, or chassis, is the moment I have to take a break from the game. Fortunately, that's not happened, yet. For those people who are playing the game so they can grind in some neat new piece of tech, you're doing it wrong! Period. If I can get a new efficiency, I'm happy... if I don't for a little while, it doesn't honestly matter. Frankly, I have bigger fish to fry in that regard, and there are other things that need to be either fixed, or implemented, in this game -such as why do 95% of my deaths revolve around the Center Torso when I'm driving a Catapult? And, why do my arms -boxes/lasers- blow off as if they only have one armor point on them, when hit by a single Medium Laser, and why do other parts black out, as if destroyed, when I've not taken damage at all?

Now, as far as the economy goes, I would posit that PGI believed in their hearts that Community Warfare was just right around the corner when they adjusted the economy for 12-Man's, and then they realized the fear that was Repair & Reload, how it was so great, but they just couldn't get it to work right. If they did the same with CW, and launched it prematurely, they would lose the game in its entirety. Then, they started looking for a solution, such as DirectX 11, to help them finish UI 2.0 and CW, and get DirectX 9 in shape, so non-Windows 8 consumers could continue to play unhindered, and simply forgot to take the time to re-balance the economy to a temporary equilibrium, and have just been busting their back sides since to get DX11, UI 2.0, and CW with the Merc Corps Interface out as fast and as complete as possible.

[DaZur]

Kay Wolf, on 18 November 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

1.) Thanks.. There's a fine line between rambling incoherently and having a salient thought and I lucked out with the latter today.

2.) I truly am torn on trial mechs... Personally I have no problems with the trial mechs but if I could will a change, I would allow something akin to "tier-three" customization of them. with a leasing model. Kind'a a carrot at the end of a stick method of motivation, In that having access to some low-level customization and leased ownership that may or may-not end in that player choosing to buy out the lease to gain full access to customization. "Win-Win" that begs a player (unknowingly) to invest in the game.

3.) Agree with the over-the-top over-hyped sales... For me and I'm sure a lot of people, when businesses run too many sales, they : a.) Appear desperate. b.) Feel disingenuous and frivolous. c.) Devalue the actual product... That said, if they lean the other way, they are accused of being miserly and only extending a hand to pick pockets. It's a tough situation.

4.) I'm pining a lot of hope on CW to give some meaning to role-specific accomplishments but I'm not quite ready to hold my breath.

My caveat with CW is... and I fear I may be but one of a few realist on this subject, is it's not going to drastically change the landscape of MW:O. At the end of the day CW will at best be a singular and or series of loosely linked drops over a contested planet or asset. I fear far too many people have grandiose expectations that far outstrip reality and is going to leave an awful lot of people writhing over the taste of sour grapes...

[FupDup]

Another variable in this whole equation is mech bays. If people had spare spacebucks lying around, they just might happen to use it to buy robots, and once they get more than 4 robots they would have to buy some mechbays (using MC) if they don't want to sell off their existing robots. Basically, people would still spend real life monies under our previous C-Bill gain rate, but just on different items.

[Durant Carlyle]

This is a game where you can do absolutely nothing in the match and still gain money and experience points -- win or lose. You never not make money or experience. You never lose your 'Mech or any components shot off of it.

No, the nerf hasn't killed anything.

People who complain about this game have clearly never played EVE Online. Your ship gets damaged, you pay to repair it. Your ship gets destroyed, you lose everything on it. Your pod gets destroyed, you lose all of the implants in that clone.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 18 November 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Henry Morgan]

I think one of the big 'hurts' for new players to the game is there really isn't any sort of gated control over their entry and advancement in the game. There's the initial Trial Mech's, but after that they're tossed out of the nest and into the big, MWO world. I say it's a 'hurt' because the potential for a new player to get discouraged quickly is there with the c-bills, and buying their first mech.

There needs to be a 'sell back' feature within a set amount of time from a mech purchase, say 5 or 10 minutes, and as long as it hasn't been used in a match. New player starts, and starts grinding out some c-bills with the trial mech's. New player saves up enough to purchase their first mech, and they're happy. New player then looks at changing their load out, and see's some of the component costs are more than the mech itself, and is c-bills they don't have. New player is stuck having to grind more c-bills either in trial mechs, or the mech they wanted in a configuration they don't want. New player says "this sucks" and moves on.

Maybe that's something that will change when the factions come online, but we're not sure when that will be. But I think there needs to be something of a gate or guide/control in place for new players to help them not make expensive decisions that can be a near-instant wall for them.

[CrashieJ]

Ecto Cooler, on 18 November 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

What should address concerns with new players should come with UI 2.0 -- the ability to create and sell bundles.

I think anyone willing to spend money on the game saw the value of the Phonenix packages, it would be nice to have similar packages available on a regular basis for new and old players.

If I can start a game and see a "Starter Bundle" for $50 or whatever, I'll probably buy it assuming I like that game. This way you reduce that initial grind by giving the player some decent content to start out with.

Ecto Cooler, on 18 November 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

What should address concerns with new players should come with UI 2.0 -- the ability to create and sell bundles.

I think anyone willing to spend money on the game saw the value of the Phonenix packages, it would be nice to have similar packages available on a regular basis for new and old players.

If I can start a game and see a "Starter Bundle" for $50 or whatever, I'll probably buy it assuming I like that game. This way you reduce that initial grind by giving the player some decent content to start out with.

what if we started to think of a way of Collectible Card Games, a few great games use it and keep players coming back.

[malibu43]

Durant Carlyle, on 18 November 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

This is a game where you can do absolutely nothing in the match and still gain money and experience points -- win or lose. You never not make money or experience. You never lose your 'Mech or any components shot off of it. No, the nerf hasn't killed anything. People who complain about this game have clearly never played EVE Online. Your ship gets damaged, you pay to repair it. Your ship gets destroyed, you lose everything on it. Your pod gets destroyed, you lose all of the implants in that clone.

I don't care what other games do or don't do. I don't care if I "still get some CB for doing nothing".

I'm playing this game a lot less, and the C-Bill nerf has a lot to do with it. Telling me other games are actually worse isn't going to make me want to play this game any more. You can give me all the imaginary currency you want and it doesn't matter if I don't find playing the game or spending the currency fun.

(To clarify - Per my post above, if I felt like there were reasons to play this game other than grinding out CB to buy more mechs, then the CB nerf wouldn't matter as much to me.)

Edited by malibu43, 18 November 2013 - 04:48 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

Okay. Then do what others supposedly are doing -- go away, and only come back when CW is released.

This game isn't going to get any more fun for you before then anyway.

[Navy Sixes]

DaZur, on 18 November 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

(I'm going to keep using silly metaphors, similes, euphemisms and, parallels until someone makes me stop)

Go 'head n riff, baby. We cool.

(And I think you have a point.)

[Clownwarlord]

The issue with the meta change is that it came at the wrong time. For example, currently there are only 2 play types (Assault and Conquest), and then there is only the other part of the game (Gotta Collect Them All) when it comes to the mechs. So out of the limited play schemes and the only collect them all mentality this game is in a short tail spin to destroy itself on the rock below. Now the meta change currently is HORRIBLE idea, for right now because out side of the three elements already stated there really isn't much going for it. Then they make it harder to accomplish one of the elements to only to drive what people are getting started into this game (as for the veterans we already are in it for the longer hall because we know what is suppose to come next, new players don't).

Now if CW was out and then there was a few other features out already then yeah sure a meta change would work because there is enough to keep interest. Sadly though PGI basically raised the prices on the same thing they have been selling for ages (C-Bill wise with changing the amount you can earn).

[malibu43]

Durant Carlyle, on 18 November 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Okay. Then do what others supposedly are doing -- go away, and only come back when CW is released.

This game isn't going to get any more fun for you before then anyway.

I'm just answering the OP's question. No need to be a {Richard Cameron} about it.

I'm not going away, but I'm playing less and not buying MC. And that isn't good for anyone (you or PGI).

Edited by malibu43, 18 November 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Kay Wolf, on 18 November 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

Running all of these sales like PGI does, whether they're in it for the money or not, is a humongous turn-off, as well. In general, when I receive a notification concerning a sale, I ignore it, at least, and most typically I scoff at it, and once or twice I have become angry. Ridiculous business practice. They need to have their sales, but fewer and farther between, and they need to put up other things like game construction news, in-game team vs team news, or Inner Sphere news. Changes are supposed to be coming with UI 2.0, we'll just have to wait to see what those are.

I hate the wall of sales in the UI. Info on the small right side should be sale info and the main area in middle should be game related as you said. I have spent more on War Thunder mainly because of the lack of trying to shove things down my throat (and I play it FAR less than this game).

Pre-nerf I enjoyed banging out 1 or 2 mechs a week along with upgrading. I was looking forward to trying to buy all the mechs in game as something to pass time till content. With that being my time sink I was pacified and had no issues buying mech bays along with some colors. But I have noticed since then the slow progression has made me more judgmental of the lack of content.

I truly feel for any new player who enjoys the game and is trying to buy some stuff. If had started the game with the current economy I would have not stay much past the first 25 games. We have had a couple new guys playing in our TS and have WISHED I could give them Cbills to help them. And it isn't just the mech purchase, its the upgrades, engines, weapons and OMFG modules. When I hear them saying, "ohh I should be able to try that weapon in about 8 matches" I fell like {Scrap} for having the stuff.

TL;DR The Cbill grind does not make it worth new people staying. Little rewards, to much grind to have decent mech to be competitive, no daily incentive to log day to day. Happy players spend money, frustrated ones find games that make them happy.


**also felt that 1st free mech would be a great incentive to show what the game really has to offer in terms of building.

Edited by Dozier, 18 November 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[Xtrekker]

I used to tear down and rebuild my mechs all the time. I kept buying new chassis, new weapons and ammo, new modules, new engines. I paid MC for more mechbays, and sometimes paid MC for other little things like camo and paint. Bought a few heros too. Money generally wasn't an issue...even if I was low on cbills I knew I could refrain for a day or two and have enough to play around some more.

Now, dropping in for 10 to 15 matches a night, I get a pittance. My cbills are worth too much, so I don't spend them on frivolous things. I play with the same mechs over and over, and I'm pretty bored of them. I now have empty bays that I'm simply not planning to fill, because if I buy a new mech and it sucks, I'm stuck grinding out another couple of weeks to afford a new one. And to master skills, I have to kit out three, and with the grind the thought of that is just too overwhelming. So I sit on my cash until I am absolutely sure I'm ready to use it. And...well I'm just losing interest I guess. Hate to say that, but playing MWO is just a habit at this point.

I don't want to drop cash on more MC for premium time or mechs or packages because nothing appears to be changing in the game. Seriously, it doesn't feel like we're getting any new content, or any reason to continue striving for something. Of course we have the same ancient promises of "But wait, there's more!", but that carrot is pretty old and moldy at this point, and I kind of have to squint to imagine it at the end of a really long stick.

I did think the economy and basic concept of ownership was broken before. It certainly isn't a realistic Battletech economy, what with grunts owning multiple companies of mechs. Honestly I wish the basic premise of the game was redesigned to give it an RPG aspect in which scarcity of funds and equipment fit with the lore, but in such a way that you still have variety to keep your interest alive. Eh, that's another story though. I don't know how they can fix this.

[Blurry]

and here I thought it was golden showers and not milk. my bad.

My experience - I gave up. The grind is too much for me. even on premium time it is hard - really hard.
I am an avid mmo player and like grind but what they have done here I dont know but it has to do with the matchmaker.
you either pubstomp or get stomped so it kills the joy then you go to your total screen and see how little there is.

I started just over a month or so ago and tried out 1 month premium time. I bought a hunchback with my cadet bonus and was about to quit (grind) and running 1 mech non stop is horrible experience.

Then Phoenix popped up and I bought it and put my already premium time to use. Yup it is bad. I still have the 1 month premium time from the package I could use but why? It isnt remotely fun thrown into the chipper.

TLDR - it killed this player whom has no issue dropping money on the game.

Why not make 2X premium and sell it Russ - think of all the bank you can make and all the players you can retain. A win win!

Edited by Blurry, 19 November 2013 - 04:46 AM.

[Blurry]

Durant Carlyle, on 18 November 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

Okay. Then do what others supposedly are doing -- go away, and only come back when CW is released.

This game isn't going to get any more fun for you before then anyway.

No you dont tell people to leave because they dont come back. When do people learn my way or the higway means a total loss.
What you do to whales is give them a little extra to tide them over so when you launch they are excited and splurge and what they spend pails in comparison to the little tithe you gave them.

Players still player and the game goes on. But leaving makes people bitter -> bad PR and a negative back swell. If you dont have to deal with it you dont do it.

If they find a more enjoyable game are the coming back? nope - you keep them here playing and paying or comp them if required. In the long run you win handsomely.

If you dont - you have 0 playing your game