60 replies to this topic

[7R1P0D]

Before this patch, the perk wasn't enough of a problem for me to make a thread about. but with the LRM speed boost, it definitely is.

On any map without sheer cliffs or buildings (90% of caustic valley as an example), lrms go right over whatever cover you are behind and hit you anyway, this usually wouldn't be too much of a problem, as LRMs traveled slowly enough that the BS 3.5 second advanced target decay perk that stayed on AFTER you were completely out of sight would dissipate in the middle of you getting hit by the first volley, so you would only take a bit of damage.

Now, with the buffed speed and lrm boats everywhere, if I'm already out of LoS by the time the first boat launches, Ill still take enough damage from him and his boat friends that I'd have zero CT armor and orange internals before the 3.5 second lock wears off (no I'm not exaggerating, this has happened 5 times in the last 6 matches. I've just gotten 10 friends to start playing this game again after convincing them that PGI fixed balance, and now I'm ready to quit myself).

Leave tracking people behind cover to NARCs. Taking massive damage from people that have no way of seeing you just because they have some overpowered perk is ridiculous and makes playing on any map that doesn't have large tall terrain to actually STOP missiles instead of break lock a massive pain, unless you want to huddle with an ECM atlas and get artilley striked to death

Either lower the arc of LRMs or nerf this perk, because right now any cover that breaks LoS but doesn't actually stop LRMs is just useless, since all anyone who has this perk has to do is lock onto a guy he sees missiles coming at and instantly put him out of the fight before he loses lock

[CarlBar]

I wouldn't oppose this. Before it was a requirement to effective LRM usage because people could get behind cover and break lock so easily, not so much anymore.

[MonkeyDCecil]

I agree, about the agile of the missiles. I like the new speed, to me it makes LRMs worth it. I am also fine with Advanced Target Decay. But if they could just lower the missile arc just a little. Just enough to make a little more cove to hide behind.

[Willard Phule]

It's really a shame they can't code it for line of sight and indirect.

If you've got line of sight, there really shouldn't be much of an arc. If you're firing completely indirect, using someone else's target, then it should be arcing like artillery/mortar fire.

[Sug]

Willard Phule, on 20 March 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

It's really a shame they can't code it for line of sight and indirect.

If you've got line of sight, there really shouldn't be much of an arc. If you're firing completely indirect, using someone else's target, then it should be arcing like artillery/mortar fire.

That's how it is now.

[Murphy7]

I feel you a bit on the Advanced Target Decay and new LRM agility concerns, but I do have to ask if you had or were aware of other counters in match to take advantage of:

* ECM (your own or team mate's)
* Do you carry your own AMS?
* Do you know where your teammates AMS coverage is?

I do not disagree with considering a rebalace of the perk with the LRM agility changes, but I want to consider it hollistically. AMS is a counter that is available to everyone, and if LRMs are a major concern, one needs to consider its inclusion/exclusion in the balance of their build.

ECM is still wildly overpowered, and I would not welcome a reactive nerf to the Advanced Target Decay perk corresponding to an apparent buff of ECM capability.

[7R1P0D]

Murphy7, on 20 March 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

I feel you a bit on the Advanced Target Decay and new LRM agility concerns, but I do have to ask if you had or were aware of other counters in match to take advantage of:

* ECM (your own or team mate's)
* Do you carry your own AMS?
* Do you know where your teammates AMS coverage is?

I do not disagree with considering a rebalace of the perk with the LRM agility changes, but I want to consider it hollistically. AMS is a counter that is available to everyone, and if LRMs are a major concern, one needs to consider its inclusion/exclusion in the balance of their build.

ECM is still wildly overpowered, and I would not welcome a reactive nerf to the Advanced Target Decay perk corresponding to an apparent buff of ECM capability.

AMS is basically a waste of tonnage considering lrms generally only come in groups of hundreds of missiles, and at that point AMS does nothing. From what I can tell, one ams is good for taking out about 5 missiles a volley. Good if you're fighting someone who only has an LRM5 or 10 (which is why I only ever bring a combined missile load of 15 or more) but otherwise useless, especially in this patch where there are about 6 dedicated missile boats on a team and they always target the same guy (whoever gets locked first at any given time after previous locks are lost)

ECM is definitely OP (I say OP only because LRM cover is so needed with the current gameplay) to the point where not being in it means death and being in it means generally having a great game, but huddling around ECM atlases both hugely hurts your ability to outflank the enemy and makes you an easy artillery bombardment target (not to mention PPCing the atlas kills its ECM). Lights with ECM generally just run around and use it to defend themselves instead of help the team, so they don't help you too much unless you can keep up (I currently don't own a mech that can mount an ECM, but I'm saving up for an ECM/NARC/BAP/TAG Raven because this is now LRM/Lightwarrior)

Overall I still think that having a lock when there's no reason for you to have a lock (what, does advanced target decay automatically shoot an infinite supply of narcs with terrible battery life at anyone you lock on to?) is stupid and cheesy, and in this case also heavily breaks the game on many maps where hard cover is almost kilometers apart

Edited by Tripod, 20 March 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Murphy7]

I see, this is more a thread for you to QQ at the mechanics rather than address your gameplay.

* Grouped AMS provides an effective but ammo limited umbrella.

* Single mounted AMS provides mitigation - removing a portion of the missles coming in, which is what it should do. That it is proportionately less effective against larger missle groups or heaven forfend, massed fire against a single target. Teamwork works, folks.

* The current LRM mechanics punish poor maneuvering with respect to your terrain, your teammates, and available scouting. This is ultimately a good thing.


I suspect that many people have given off carrying AMS on reasonable fast mechs because they got used to having all day to find effective cover, and now that is not the case. Shifting blame to a module is more about shifting blame away from poor decision making or poor piloting.

[7R1P0D]

you can't be serious

getting hit by 200 out 300 lrms (this is assuming there are about 6 ams in the area and the lrms themselves come in a stream rather than all at once) still instantly puts that mech out of the fight

you say use cover, try using cover on caustic valley. The entire center of the map provides none and the cover on the edge is so far apart that it can only be utilized by mechs going over 120kph unless they just plan on sitting there all game until the enemy wins by caps

this perk makes scouting useless since you don't have to scout. Having a scout hiding at the edge of enemy lines SPOTTING the enemy without them noticing and having lrms rain down because of him is perfectly fine (this is the good thing you were talking about, the one that worked fine before). Having lrms magically track for no reason because somebody has a perk and took the time to click the r button on someone he can't even see anymore is not

I don't even see why lrms were buffed, seeing anyone that knew what they were doing could easily put out 400-800 damage a game in the LRM stalker. now you can put out 600-1000 no problem

Edited by Tripod, 20 March 2014 - 11:03 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Prior to the patch, LRM speed was 120m/s which meant that, at 180m, 600m, and 1000m, it took the following to get to you: 1.5s, 5s, and 8.3s respectively. Now that missiles go 175m/s, it now takes 1s, 3.4s, and 5.7s at those respective ranges. You're telling me that adding 3.5s with the module is SO overpowering when you've only gained. 0.5s, 1.6s, and 2.6s? You're only seeing the impact at max range where LRM users shouldn't even be firing.

There is no problem here.



BTW, 3.5s is the 2nd level of the Decay module. Lvl 1 is only 2.6s.

[plodder]

Tactics,
a remembered twist,
LRM junkies are just tweaking our wrists.
Are we goin to huddle, buckle to our knees,In a far corner to die?
Or,
Will we work together with speed striker flankers?
We can make the support mech cry!

Ecm counter, and encounter with brawling power, sure there's a learning curve, ya lost your nerve???
Or we KDR cowards?KDR hurt:(


Challenge is good, overaction is easy. I will use LRMs now as a 2nd or 3rd weopon now an again. AMS was useful again:^)
I do wish one could turn it off so you could stealth into the lrms backfield. That would be better than a nerf to me.(if more mechs used ams,it is definitely a serious help)

This has been another b.s. plodduction ;^)

Edited by plodder, 20 March 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[7R1P0D]

Trauglodyte, on 20 March 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Prior to the patch, LRM speed was 120m/s which meant that, at 180m, 600m, and 1000m, it took the following to get to you: 1.5s, 5s, and 8.3s respectively. Now that missiles go 175m/s, it now takes 1s, 3.4s, and 5.7s at those respective ranges. You're telling me that adding 3.5s with the module is SO overpowering when you've only gained. 0.5s, 1.6s, and 2.6s? You're only seeing the impact at max range where LRM users shouldn't even be firing.

There is no problem here.



BTW, 3.5s is the 2nd level of the Decay module. Lvl 1 is only 2.6s.

you just said that the perk makes anyone firing missiles at ranges of 600m or closer get to you before they lose lock whereas before they had to be 400 meters or closer for the missiles to hit before losing target decay, and even then only the first few missiles. on caustic people generally stand about 300-500 meters away, meaning that if you break lock just as the missiles fire, they will hit you before you unlock with time to spare

the range was never even the real issue, the issue is since most boats fire in groups of 15 to keep heat down, before only the first group would hit before the perk wore off, now all of the groups hit before you actually lose tracking despite coming out of LoS 4 seconds ago

what's the point of line of sight based radar if you can get a perk to overcome it to the point that breaking line of sight to avoid lrms becomes pointless?

Edited by Tripod, 20 March 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Dracol]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

[snip]
what's the point of line of sight based radar if you can get a perk to overcome it to the point that breaking line of sight to avoid lrms becomes pointless?

Avoid LOS is not pointless....

First, it prevents further LRMS from getting launched in your general direction
Second, it order to lose LOS and help mitigate incoming missiles, one has to move beyond just out of sight. It causes one to move around the battlefield more, making it a much more dynamic game.

I have found in my experience when firing on enemies over 400m away, only those who back down out of sight and sit are hit by my missiles. Those who back down out of sight and re position tend to avoid the missiles.

[AlmightyAeng]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

you say use cover, try using cover on caustic valley. The entire center of the map provides none and the cover on the edge is so far apart that it can only be utilized by mechs going over 120kph unless they just plan on sitting there all game until the enemy wins by caps

Why are you sitting in the middle of the caldera? You dissipate heat slower, there's no cover inside (like you pointed out) and there's plenty of STEEP easily attainable cover on the OUTSIDE of the caldera.

Stop using your poor choices to strengthen a fallacious argument.

If you're playing conquest, the two points on the 'far ends' actually have a crapload of cover. Play smarter.

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

I don't even see why lrms were buffed, seeing anyone that knew what they were doing could easily put out 400-800 damage a game in the LRM stalker. now you can put out 600-1000 no problem

So...kinda like all the other weapons systems? If you're worth a damn you're hitting 600-1000 in those with no problem, too.

[7R1P0D]

Ghost Badger, on 20 March 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Why are you sitting in the middle of the caldera? You dissipate heat slower, there's no cover inside (like you pointed out) and there's plenty of STEEP easily attainable cover on the OUTSIDE of the caldera.

who the hell said I was in the middle?

I was on the edge of the crater, using the crater ridge as cover from the enemy in the middle

every time I peeked to shoot the guy capping the middle point, a stalker in the middle (about 300 meters away) would fire all of his lrms at me after I ran back into cover and ran full speed to somewhere else

the lrms would go over the ridge, and turn straight towards me and hit me anyway, despite them hitting me 3 seconds after they lost sight of me

the STEEP cover you're talking about is the cover I'm saying is now completely useless

It almost never blocked missiles before, but it broke LoS enough for only the first volley to hit you if they had the perk, now all of the missiles hit you beofre they lose tracking because of the speed buff

also dracol I said BREAKING LoS is now pointless, since the missiles that still get to you before the perk wears off do enough damage to either kill you or take off and arm and half of a side torso. Using LoS to never get locked in the first place would be ok if you wouldnt have to step out and actually fight the enemy instead of just hide until time ran out

Quote

So...kinda like all the other weapons systems? If you're worth a damn you're hitting 600-1000 in those with no problem, too.

doing that much EVERY game? I doubt it unless you're playing a dual ER laser light with ecm and just running whenever someone looks at you instead of the team you're using as bait. Post a screen of your mech stats, mine are below https://www.dropbox.com/s/rb7pgpzhd58tzhk/Screenshot%202014-03-20%2015.52.41.png

notice most being in the 350-400 range with the stalker being at 500 at only 15 games. clearly it has a huge learning curve and doesnt involve waiting for someone who's not a light to push out of cover and then spamming missiles at them

Edited by Tripod, 20 March 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Misadventure]

I think its working as intended. It does not suck any more than poptarts, or ac 40 mech, or any other meta build that gets over used. I like that LRM's are finally a weapon people have to take note of again.

Lrms were never ment it to lock on but no one ever found an effective way to port them into a pc game so this is what we get.

[Dracol]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

also dracol I said BREAKING LoS is now pointless, since the missiles that still get to you before the perk wears off do enough damage to either kill you or take off and arm and half of a side torso. Using LoS to never get locked in the first place would be ok if you wouldnt have to step out and actually fight the enemy instead of just hide until time ran out

If breaking LOS is pointless... then the best move in your situation would be to stand firm and Direct Fire the LRM Stalker until its demise.

But a fresh stalker takes to long to take down if one can't land pin point damage onto a single location (side torse if you happen to be facing one of the trial stalkers)

So, its a matter of finding the right cover. On Caldera, Refinery side, the near right corner is were I like to work from.

On the lake side, the ridges work well to gain cover from the left side slope. From shots fired from directly across the caldera, it gets a little tricky. I usually avoid a direct confrontation over the caldera and instead flank one of the sides.

Oh Tripod, one bit of info I didn't pick up on that I am curious about. What role were you playing for your team? and what our mechs were you working with in your area?

[Trauglodyte]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

you just said that the perk makes anyone firing missiles at ranges of 600m or closer get to you before they lose lock whereas before they had to be 400 meters or closer for the missiles to hit before losing target decay, and even then only the first few missiles. on caustic people generally stand about 300-500 meters away, meaning that if you break lock just as the missiles fire, they will hit you before you unlock with time to spare

the range was never even the real issue, the issue is since most boats fire in groups of 15 to keep heat down, before only the first group would hit before the perk wore off, now all of the groups hit before you actually lose tracking despite coming out of LoS 4 seconds ago

what's the point of line of sight based radar if you can get a perk to overcome it to the point that breaking line of sight to avoid lrms becomes pointless?

I had a nice post written up and then it got eaten.

Anyway, being at the rim of the Caldera in Caustic Valley is a classic n00b mistake made my too many teams. Pick an area that has cover and utilize the firing lines. But, the more important fact is that GOOD LRM users firing at you when they have you in LOS or when they have a dedicated spotter (hopefully using NARC) that is good enough to keep the target 100% of the time. In those situations, you're either going to die that much faster to PPCs and ACs or you'd have taken the same amount of damage from LRMs as before. Nothing has changed.

The only benefit that the module provides is when I have you in my LOS when I'm chasing you and you duck over an edge and I lose it. In that case, it provides me with 3.5s of added time with the hopes that my payload is going to land. That is all that I'm getting from it. Yes, the added speed turns that into roughly 6s. BUT, I shouldn't be using missiles when I can't see you anyway. I don't gain the benefit from Artemis or TAG and only gain the small buff from NARC if it is in play. In any case, if I can't see you and nobody whom I trust is in your area, I'm not firing which means that the module is a wasted slot.

Really, what you're going through right now is nothing more than a glutton of bored players having fun. And, those same players are quickly learning what we all knew before: ACs and PPCs are better at killing people than LRMs. They get to the target faster and do all of their damage in one spot and there are no counters to it.

This too shall pass.

[Dracol]

Tripod, on 20 March 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

every time I peeked to shoot the guy capping the middle point, a stalker in the middle (about 300 meters away) would fire all of his lrms at me after I ran back into cover and ran full speed to somewhere else

Oh, a comment about this part. You said "every time I peeked" . Were you shifting positions? or was the stalker able to keep looking in the same direction, instantly re acquiring lock as soon as you cleared?

If you can delay the time it takes them to even start acquiring lock, you can eat into their no-LOS time.

In my experience, shifting position and trying to wait til the missile boat has fired on another target helps me the most in gaining time to dodge back into cover.

Edited by Dracol, 20 March 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[7R1P0D]

Dracol, on 20 March 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

If breaking LOS is pointless... then the best move in your situation would be to stand firm and Direct Fire the LRM Stalker until its demise.

But a fresh stalker takes to long to take down if one can't land pin point damage onto a single location (side torse if you happen to be facing one of the trial stalkers)

So, its a matter of finding the right cover. On Caldera, Refinery side, the near right corner is were I like to work from.

On the lake side, the ridges work well to gain cover from the left side slope. From shots fired from directly across the caldera, it gets a little tricky. I usually avoid a direct confrontation over the caldera and instead flank one of the sides.

Oh Tripod, one bit of info I didn't pick up on that I am curious about. What role were you playing for your team? and what our mechs were you working with in your area?

I was in an ac2/dual large laser dragon trying to stop a spider and firestarter from capping mid. there were a few heavies and assaults with me (battlemaster, 4ac5cheeseaphract and some others I dont remember as well as a centurion) that occassionally popped out to help. but the first time I popped out, I fired at the guys in cap a bit, saw the stalker in the back (far side of the caldera but still inside of it) and ran back down the ridge. half a second later I heard lrm warning, turned to see where they were going while running 81kph perpendicular to them. they came over the ridge, turned left into me and instantly cored me. Pretty sure it was two blobs of 60 lrms from two separate boats

Also for the every time I peeked part, it happened twice on the same map. First time I got cored instantly so I couldnt peek again

second match an lrm boat took off an arm after I peeked and ran and I moved about 45 degrees around the caldera and shot again, as soon as I got on radar he turned and fired again, taking off most of my CT, at which point I just gave up and hid somewhere in the back to stay alive while they slowly capped out while lrming our team to death

Edited by Tripod, 20 March 2014 - 12:03 PM.