775 replies to this topic

[MightyMeatShield]

Paul Inouye, on 24 March 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

As you may or may not know, I do have the ability to remotely monitor specific and random games being played. I spent a large portion of my time last week monitoring gameplay of players of all Elo ranges.

Is that what the stick-man doing a head stand icon that randomly shows up at the top left corner of the screen right before the map loads indicates?

[Lorgarn]

Ajantise, on 26 March 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

So the whole game is about LRMs?

That is exactly my feeling...

Regards
Lorgarn

[Dimento Graven]

Welp...

Proof of "easy mode":

[Whoops]

I can't believe I read 20+ pages of this...my mind is now fried.

By reading, however, I saw a few ideas that were great.

LRM missile spread, LoS lock acceleration vs. spotter lock time (receiving data from another source than your own computer should take longer to acquire as it has to filter through the spotter's computer first), and slightly lower trajectories to make cover on more open maps somewhat viable.

Personally, I think they should limit the size of the weapons based on chassis. Just because a chassis has the available tonnage doesn't mean they should have the space for certain weapons. Any 'Mech should be able to carry SRMs or SSRMs. For LRMs, I would break it up as the following:

Light: LRM5
Medium: LRM5, LRM10
Heavy: LRM5, LRM10, LRM15 (with the CAT-A1 and C4, because of their singular chassis design, being able to sport LRM20s)
Assault: LRM5, LRM10, LRM15, LRM20

Again, this is a personal opinion, but fitting a LRM20 into, say, a Cicada...it just doesn't make sense! And it might calm down the Lurmageddon cries as not every 'Mech would be able to shoot off LRM40/60 salvos.

Also...and I believe this was mentioned once...but have TAG/NARC component specific. Shoot a NARC and it hits an arm? That arm just became ground zero for missile hits. Same with TAG, only with TAG you have to hold the beam on target for the lock, so torso twisting and such can change where incoming missiles finally hit.

And while we're at it...TAG and NARC counter ECM, and this is awesome. However...why not combine this with the spotter lock mechanic? ECM disrupts a 'Mech's ability to use their sensors. It should also affect the 'Mech's ability to transmit data to other 'Mechs. This means that ECM jammed 'Mechs targets are not shared with their team! Their 'Mech icon could also be removed from the map, just to show that they can't transmit data. They get out of the ECM and it pops back up! (I know this is a long shot and would be a lot of coding...but it makes sense to me).

For example: 'Mech A is a LRM boat from hell. 'Mech B is his spotter. As long as 'Mech B throws TAG or NARC on an enemy, 'Mech A will rain fire. If an enemy has ECM on counter near 'Mech B, then NARC, which is self-sufficient, works as intended, but TAG, which is controlled by the spotter's computer, can't get it's info to 'Mech A. Of course, if 'Mech A uses a TAG of his own, his computer doesn't need to transmit and it functions properly through ECM.

This would balance NARC with TAG, as NARC would work regardless of ECM against a spotter 'Mech, while TAG has no ammo requirement and less tonnage to field. It also makes it more likely that LRM boats will need to move into the battle a bit for LoS locks, as their spotters might be under an ECM cloud and unable to perform as advertised.

And from what else I've been reading, I must 515107955710593rd the notion of fixing SRMs, SSRMs, and hitboxes.

EDIT: Clarification and addition of impossible dream idea.

Edited by Cyron Zarva, 26 March 2014 - 02:56 PM.

[Artgathan]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Welp...

Proof of "easy mode":

[youtube video]

I'm not sure if you're being serious? What I saw in the video was:

• LRM boat playing to it's strengths (using Artemis + TAG against targets in open terrain)
  
• Targets that didn't try to take cover from LRM fire

Consider for a second the loadout of the Stalker you used:

• 4 X LRM20 + Artemis
  
• 9 Tons of Ammo (which you completely burned through)

That's 53 tons of equipment! I should hope that 53 tons of weaponry is able to be a threat on the battlefield. Consider that on a "hypothetical meta-mech" you could easily carry 2 AC/10 + 2 PPC (or even just 4 AC/10 and the ammo to run them) for the same tonnage.

Consider that you fired off 9 tons of ammunition as well. If you'd fired off 9 tons of AC ammo (and did the 800ish damage you did) you'd be appalled! However for LRMs that's business as usual for some reason. I really don't see anything in that video that shows LRMs as being "easy mode". Replace your LRMs with PPC/AC and you would probably have dominated that match even more.

[Dimento Graven]

Artgathan, on 26 March 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

I'm not sure if you're being serious? What I saw in the video was:

• LRM boat playing to it's strengths (using Artemis + TAG against targets in open terrain)
  
• Targets that didn't try to take cover from LRM fire

Consider for a second the loadout of the Stalker you used:

• 4 X LRM20 + Artemis
  
• 9 Tons of Ammo (which you completely burned through)

That's 53 tons of equipment! I should hope that 53 tons of weaponry is able to be a threat on the battlefield. Consider that on a "hypothetical meta-mech" you could easily carry 2 AC/10 + 2 PPC (or even just 4 AC/10 and the ammo to run them) for the same tonnage.

Consider that you fired off 9 tons of ammunition as well. If you'd fired off 9 tons of AC ammo (and did the 800ish damage you did) you'd be appalled! However for LRMs that's business as usual for some reason. I really don't see anything in that video that shows LRMs as being "easy mode". Replace your LRMs with PPC/AC and you would probably have dominated that match even more.

Art, I disagree completely with your conclusions. Here's a couple of factors you failed to account/consider:

First and foremost, much of that damage, approaching half, was delivered via indirect fire. Something that no other weapon system is capable of doing.

Secondly, and almost as important, the skill required to 'aim' an LRM is CONSIDERABLY less than that required for any direct fire weapon, OTHER THAN (maybe) SSRMs. All an unskilled LRM pilot has to do is keep the small circle inside the big square, get the BIG circle appear, and click the button to fire, THEN, keep the big circle inside the big square and, easy, peasy, Japaneasy damage occurs. It's TREMENDOUSLY less difficult to do that, then to pin point aim at a moving 'mech, while moving, while under fire, while being hit.

LRMs have been buffed, and have the capability of being augmented into easy mode.

Multiple LRM racks+artemis+tag+BAP(if applicable)+Adv. Sensor Range+Adv. Target Decay = EASY MODE.

Add in, NARC, UAV, and at least an AVERAGE spotting skill of one more people dropping with you, and it gets EXTREMELY deadly.

I've been regularly racking up 5 and 6 kill games, and my Stalker, last I checked, has a 4.1 K/D ratio.

It all adds up to: EASY MODE.

Sure, put this in the hands of a newb and the results will be no where near, but even a pilot of average skill gets a significant boost from LRM boating.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 26 March 2014 - 03:25 PM.

[DocBach]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 02:35 PM, said:

Welp...

Proof of "easy mode":

The team I was on was ******** - because ECM makes no red boxes appear, they decided the best course of action (despite the fact that I was calling through text chat that we were getting flanked from behind the fort) was to sit in a crossfire between your LRM's and the charging D-DCs, because the enemies that don't appear on radar don't exist in pug land.

VOIP could help both coordinate LRM strikes between spotters, and rallying players on the receiving end on where to move out to and consolidate, something that's really hard to do currently typing -- especially when your shaking off a constant stream of LRMs.

Edited by DocBach, 26 March 2014 - 03:29 PM.

[Ludibrat]

Ajantise, on 26 March 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

This sound like a page torn out from some basic game guide for mwo....

First of all the point of this game should not be hiding all the damn time...and lately thats what the game is coming down to...counting their lrm boats and hoping that someone will bring a D-DC or smthn else with ECM equipped...and even then chances are some flea will show up and tag you and its game over...(no matter if you re light or assault)
And seriously....does not equipping AMS really means you shouldnt even bother joining a game?
Before this patch i was always trusting in terrain cover and i was doing pretty well...with or without ams..but now it seems its no use anymore...once you re locked you re fu..ed

I think im gonna try some other game until they stop forcing people into a certain style of play which mostly involves trying to hide from LRMS and praying that opposite team doesnt bring more then 2 lrm boats per game..

[Dimento Graven]

DocBach, on 26 March 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

The team I was on was ******** - because ECM makes no red boxes appear, they decided the best course of action (despite the fact that I was calling through text chat that we were getting flanked from behind the fort) was to sit in a crossfire between your LRM's and the charging D-DCs, because the enemies that don't appear on radar don't exist in pug land.

VOIP could help both coordinate LRM strikes between spotters, and rallying players on the receiving end on where to move out to and consolidate, something that's really hard to do currently typing -- especially when your shaking off a constant stream of LRMs.

Bring tag. Point tag at an ECM'd 'mech, "poof" it magically becomes targetable.

[101011]

Cyron Zarva, on 26 March 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

And while we're at it...TAG and NARC counter ECM, and this is awesome. However...why not combine this with the spotter lock mechanic? ECM disrupts a 'Mech's ability to use their sensors. It should also affect the 'Mech's ability to transmit data to other 'Mechs. This means that ECM jammed 'Mechs targets are not shared with their team! Their 'Mech icon could also be removed from the map, just to show that they can't transmit data. They get out of the ECM and it pops back up! (I know this is a long shot and would be a lot of coding...but it makes sense to me).

Since you must not have been here last year, there was an unbelievable amount of complaining because exactly this happened. ECM cut 'Mechs off from their allies, and PGI only recently changed it to what we have currently. Honestly, nothing was more frustrating than having everything go away on the map. It made target acquisition impossible without LOS, leading to lights simply skipping by while the PUGs in their fatlai turned in circles like 100-ton dogs searching for the carrier. Enough whining ensued, and PGI changed it.

[DocBach]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Bring tag. Point tag at an ECM'd 'mech, "poof" it magically becomes targetable.

In a game where I can't determine what the 11 other pilots bring while using a 'Mech with just two energy hardpoints, I'd settle for VOIP like every other game has to try to coordinate in the case requisite equipment isn't available. During that game if I recall there was two ECM Atlases bearing down and I couldn't deactivate the ECM on both of them, and players actively engaged don't seem to read the chat bar.

The point is, VOIP could help players on both sides of LRM apocolypse to coordinate spotting efforts better, or for instant movement and rally commands to get out of a killzone.

Edited by DocBach, 26 March 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[Artgathan]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Art, I disagree completely with your conclusions. Here's a couple of factors you failed to account/consider:

First and foremost, much of that damage, approaching half, was delivered via indirect fire. Something that no other weapon system is capable of doing.

Secondly, and almost as important, the skill required to 'aim' an LRM is CONSIDERABLY less than that required for any direct fire weapon, OTHER THAN (maybe) SSRMs. All an unskilled LRM pilot has to do is keep the small circle inside the big square, get the BIG circle appear, and click the button to fire, THEN, keep the big circle inside the big square and, easy, peasy, Japaneasy damage occurs. It's TREMENDOUSLY less difficult to do that, then to pin point aim at a moving 'mech, while moving, while under fire, while being hit.

LRMs have been buffed, and have the capability of being augmented into easy mode.

Multiple LRM racks+artemis+tag+BAP(if applicable)+Adv. Sensor Range+Adv. Target Decay = EASY MODE.

Add in, NARC, UAV, and at least an AVERAGE spotting skill of one more people dropping with you, and it gets EXTREMELY deadly.

I've been regularly racking up 5 and 6 kill games, and my Stalker, last I checked, has a 4.1 K/D ratio.

It all adds up to: EASY MODE.

Sure, put this in the hands of a newb and the results will be no where near, but even a pilot of average skill gets a significant boost from LRM boating.

I went back and counted the kills. You get:

• 2 Laser Kills
  
• 3 Direct-Fire LRM Kills
  
• 1 Indirect Fire Kill (basically a kill-steal as the LRMs impact the target when it's already cherry-red)
  
• 1 Mixed Fire Kill (the target dives behind cover 1 second before it dies)

Most of your damage is not delivered via indirect fire. You spend your ammunition about 50-50 between direct and indirect fire, and you can see AMS units chewing through lots of your indirect fire at the beginning of the match.


Essentially you get one kill that would have been impossible with PPC/ACs. OP? Not even a little bit.

Edited by Artgathan, 26 March 2014 - 03:45 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Artgathan, on 26 March 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

I went back and counted the kills. You get:

• 2 Laser Kills
  
• 3 Direct-Fire LRM Kills
  
• 1 Indirect Fire Kill (basically a kill-steal as the LRMs impact the target when it's already cherry-red)
  
• 1 Mixed Fire Kill (the target dives behind cover 1 second before it dies)

Most of your damage is not delivered via indirect fire. You spend your ammunition about 50-50 between direct and indirect fire, and you can see AMS units chewing through lots of your indirect fire at the beginning of the match.


Essentially you get one kill that would have been impossible with PPC/ACs. OP? Not even a little bit.

Again, your conclusions are mono dimensional.

Look at the ending score. Of the 12 'mechs on the field, 8 that I killed, and the 4 that others killed, I touched each and every one of them. A majority of them, if I interpret my video properly with indirect fire at some point. You remove my indirect damage and that game ends VERY differently.

[stjobe]

Ajantise, on 26 March 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

So the whole game is about LRMs?

The poster I replied to said he had trouble with LRMs, so I gave him some tips on how to manage them. Had he asked about how to survive poptarts, or how to deal with Lights, or something else, he would have gotten a different set of tips (although some might have overlapped). It wasn't an exhaustive list of tactics, just some tips on how to handle LRMs after the patch.

So to answer your question: No, the "whole game" isn't just about LRMs, but they are a part of the game and can no longer be ignored like they could before the patch. Adapt and overcome.

If you're still having trouble adjusting to the new weapon balance, go back and read the tips I gave the other poster again, you might find some of them helpful. You will have to adapt though, because LRMs can no longer be ignored.

And that is a good thing; no scratch that, it's a great thing for game variance, fun factor, and longevity.

[Osric Lancaster]

Cyron Zarva, on 26 March 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Light: LRM5
Medium: LRM5, LRM10
Heavy: LRM5, LRM10, LRM15 (with the CAT-A1 and C4, because of their singular chassis design, being able to sport LRM20s)
Assault: LRM5, LRM10, LRM15, LRM20

That kind of system would invalidate some canon load-outs, but it would be nice to see a hardpoint system in MWO closer to what you have in MWT or MW4. Also yea, I agree with you on NARC and TAG.

Artgathan, on 26 March 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

I really don't see anything in that video that shows LRMs as being "easy mode". Replace your LRMs with PPC/AC and you would probably have dominated that match even more.

Basically, and anyway I could post the vid with that flamer stalker tearing a team apart and proclaim it to be proof that flamers are overpowered. It proves nothing, and it's anecdotal evidence at best. The video itself is someone in a pre-made on team speak with ECM support running down PUGers that don't understand how to cover. (Seriously, they're all milling about in the middle of the water at one point.) Even then he's got lasers, he's in an assault 'Mech and his team is pretty chewed up at the end and barely anyone on the opposing team makes an effort to shut him down.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 26 March 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Osric Lancaster, on 26 March 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Basically, and anyway I could post the vid with that flamer stalker tearing a team apart and proclaim it to be proof that flamers are overpowered. It proves nothing, and it's anecdotal evidence at best.

If you have a video like that, please post it! Not only because I don't believe, BUT, because if it does exist, I want to see it, it'd be f'ing awesome!!!

Quote

The video itself is someone in a pre-made on team speak with ECM support running down PUGers that don't understand how to cover. (Seriously, they're all milling about in the middle of the water at one point.) Even then he's got lasers, he's in an assault 'Mech and his team is pretty chewed up at the end and barely anyone on the opposing team makes an effort to shut him down.

Some of your analysis is quite flawed.

First: It is a pre-made, yes, a pre-made of myself in my Stalker, and my brother in his Jaeger. There was no one else in that team speak channel that was in that match.

Second: I had no ability to communicate with any "ECM support", and having just fast forwarded through my video, if there was ANY POINT at which I was under ECM cover during that match it was for no more than a second, at best, because I don't see the ECM icon show up. OTHER team mates might have enjoyed the ECM cover, it was never a factor for me.

Third: As far as the logic of the tactics employed by the opposing team, it appeared they were trying, unsuccessfully to implement a pincer move on us in the buildings, but at least a lance of my pugs were already out of the buildings and on to the citadel. It was just hard for them to focus with me being able to rain a nearly unending "holy hell" on them.

You go back into my YouTube postings far enough you'll find other high kill games, with direct fire weapons (dual gauss) and I can tell you, it was FAR MORE difficult to get a 7 kill game with dual gauss than it was to do so with LRMs, and it only 8 days since the last LRM change to do it, as opposed to months and months with gauss.

LRMS have an extreme propensity to become EASY MODE, period.

Admit it, and live with it.

[Whoops]

101011, on 26 March 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Since you must not have been here last year, there was an unbelievable amount of complaining because exactly this happened. ECM cut 'Mechs off from their allies, and PGI only recently changed it to what we have currently. Honestly, nothing was more frustrating than having everything go away on the map. It made target acquisition impossible without LOS, leading to lights simply skipping by while the PUGs in their fatlai turned in circles like 100-ton dogs searching for the carrier. Enough whining ensued, and PGI changed it.

I wasn't, in fact. I left just before arty showed up (moved and comp died simultaneously). Just came back last week. But doesn't the "LOW SIGNAL" from a jamming ECM still do exactly that? Stop you from seeing your allies? Forgive my ignorance, for I do not own an ECM 'Mech. I'll go look up the effects of ECM to rectify that.

As an aside, though...with PPCs, NARCs, and TAG able to cut through ECM, I don't see why it's as big of a deal as all that. Guess it's because I missed whatever exploiting was being done.

[Boss Awesome]

I think reducing the speed of LRMs from 175 to 160 is perfect. They definitely needed a buff from 120 since it was tough to hit moving targets. 175 seemed a bit too brutal on light mechs, as they should at least have some defense against homing missiles due to speed. 160 sounds like it will allow LRMs to be just as deadly against the bigger, slower mechs, while giving a little leeway to the fast fragile mechs.

Now we just need some SRM love.

[Ludibrat]

What is the descending angle on LRMs? anyone familiar with the numbers?

[Osric Lancaster]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

If you have a video like that, please post it! Not only because I don't believe, BUT, because if it does exist, I want to see it, it'd be f'ing awesome!!!

There are a couple videos, just Google 'flamer stalker'. Pretty sure it's Koniving.

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

LRMS have an extreme propensity to become EASY MODE, period.
Admit it, and live with it.

I already admitted that LRMs are easy mode against people who have no clue how to deal with them. I'm also living with it just fine. For ~some reason~ they don't seem to be that common in the matches I play, and I can use cover when they do show up. Hell, I still don't fit LRMs on my Battlemaster because it gives me a big ol' side torso for no real gain. I might consider it if those box launchers had separate hit boxes with separate health like in MW4, but nope. Apparently XL engines are made of silly putty and squish into every available nook and cranny.