134 replies to this topic

[Mordin Ashe]

ShinVector, on 10 April 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

Resorted to petty insults eh.. space pirate... I will remember you.

One does not simply agree with a Liao!
(same goes for wanderer, ehm...)

Anyway, since the LRM buff I noticed more and more fast strikers in games. Mostly fast heavies (Dragons, Quickdraws, some Thunderbolts) loaded with short-range weaponry hunting LRM boats down. Now when most of the LRM rain is gone again, those people stayed so I suppose this whole thing had at least one positive effect.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 10 April 2014 - 03:53 AM.

[ShinVector]

They said the LRM Spam had gone away....
They said ECM was OP...
Let the LRMers combine and we are LRM STORM !!

Hey... I didn't get much kills or damage but 18 spotting assist and 160K... I will take it !
Watch a perfectly healthy ECM Raven at 7min 49s die in 13 seconds.....
He even tried to use cover... LOLz... No escape from the LRM storm now lights...
This is 'FAIR'... Very 'FAIR.'



Funny how LRM lovers tell you to use cover and what not...
When I run around in the open like a d**k spamming LRM knowing the other LRMer boats will either kill or make the opponents cower in fear.
More LRMs = Battlefield Control !

Ok... I had this idea... That might indirectly help with this LRM problem..
PGI should provide LRM information in the mini-radar.. EH ?
Detailed to the point that you know the locations where the LRMers was launched from and you can tell approximately how many LRM was launched based on the density shown.

Anyone with me on the suggestion ?

Edited by ShinVector, 10 April 2014 - 06:35 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Kjudoon, on 09 April 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I believe the 'angst', as you incorrectly define it, is more frustration at the fraud that LRMs are OP when ECM most certainly is and pretending that there is no need for fixing weapon balance issues in the game unless it is to make ACs more dominant.

But since you're just going to recycle the same previous "nothing to see here, just make LRMs useless" crapola, there's really no more reason to listen or discuss the issue with you.

I'm sorta with you, but what I see in games is a little different to what you see matey. I use lrm mechs, ballistic mechs and energy mechs. I know how each set of weapons works and the pros and cons of each. The sad fact is, indirect fire has more of an effect than anything else. I can shuck and dodge direct fire much easier than the lrms. As I have said before, ONE lrm mech is combatable. 4-5 isn't. Today I was in my Jaeger DD. I popped out of cover to fire three salvos of AC2. that is around 2 secs for movement and 1.5 secs to fire. The responding salvo of lrms I recieved crippled my mech in one salvo. Just ONE. You have seen me play, you know I'm not an idiot and know how to use cover and when to engage...
My mech simply was not fast enough to evade or shuck the incoming swarm. I twisted and bent my mech to try to spread the damage across 3 torso sections and one arm...direct fire would have been 2 sections-AT MOST.
The enemy team had so many lrms, our entire team was pinned down. Anyone tried to move, even a light to tag and narc the boats they got focused by a giga swarm or lrms. I saw a poor Jenner die in one salvo. Right now, it's still too much. When I see "missile incoming" now I just sigh and my desire to play just fades.
I'm not alone.

To sum up:
The effort required to deliver the weapon is not directly proportional to the damage and effect is can have on gameplay.

wanderer, on 10 April 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

I live in the "solo PUG drop" world.

If they don't learn to run and gun to beat LRMs, they'll be the same useless meat shields at higher ELOs when we just stick the barrels of a Jagermech in their face and pull the trigger- because situational awareness and the need to not freeze in place are critical for exiting scrubdom.

I get experienced players smoking LRM boats constantly- heck, for laughs I've been driving my no-LRM Catapult around hunting them. If I can do it with regularity in a 65-tonner, why on earth can't others do anything but "QQ LRMs"?

Hunting is frequently very, very good.

I do the same in my lights. I have adapted the way I play to combat the swarm.
Does not mean I enjoy this new way of playing.....

.......and that, is the issue many of the complainers are getting across.

One set of players are having a field day trolling other people-the rest just sit there in frustration. Some of them log off and don't come back, like most of my friends did. I highly doubt many will return. they have had enough of meta huggers, assault boaters and now lrm boaters.

Edited by kamiko kross, 10 April 2014 - 07:46 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

ShinVector, on 10 April 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Ok... I had this idea... That might indirectly help with this LRM problem..
PGI should provide LRM information in the mini-radar.. EH ?
Detailed to the point that you know the locations where the LRMers was launched from and you can tell approximately how many LRM was launched based on the density shown.

Anyone with me on the suggestion ?

Please, yes! In one of LRM topics I posted a few ideas about how to make information warfare more informative, and this was part of it. Show it, mark at least approximate locations where the enemy was spotted last, keep "stored" information about the enemy % of armor left, show it all! Let the map provide good information. This would not only improve the game for everyone, it would also make LRM guys move instead of playing stationary chess game. It would also force everyone to move, making the game more tactical and about figuring out how to outplay the enemy instead of getting caught in the open and failing miserably.

But such rework of information warfare would drain too much resources they now need for CW. Sad we may not get anything like it in the next, what, year or two?

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

That would be a good use for the command console. But right now you can mostly tell where and what is firing just watching the missile trail right now.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 10 April 2014 - 02:11 PM.

[Latorque]

Uhm...i'd like nothing more than LRMs returning to their pre-patch speed (god knows they were awfully annoying and powerful enough already - but avoidable. By now, they've made the game even more static than before); but where exactly is the silver lining? "Reducing" the speed to 160m/s isn't exactly a blessing. Even less so with borked assault spiders doing a splendid job of spotting.

[ShinVector]

I am glad some people agree.
They said LRM that takes Skillz.
I say.. I am an LRM Noob..

Let's LRM STORM !!

Built myself a nooby XL Stalker LRM Super boat 15 Artermis x4 !



Lost the pug gamble.. How did they all die so, fast..
I need them to live and give me locks while hide here on my hill at range..
Anyway the end was fun.. LRM Super Boat vs. LRM Super Boat...


Awww.. I died... But not before getting Top damage in my LRM super boat !
Is this what they call LRM Skillz ?


This one was good.. I had lots of brawlers for team mates and while they die.. I spam LRMs from my safe zone with my other LRM boat buddy !
Let's LRM Storm !!
Hahaha.. One of the people I was playing against in the last matches switched to LRM boats.

Let's face it guys.. The real reason why you feel LRMs takes 'skillz' to use is just because you don't have people to sacrifice themselves getting locks for you.
You have locks.. You own.. That has always how it was for LRM boating not that the LRMs themselves need buffing to make them unavoidable.

Edit: error and typos.

Edited by ShinVector, 11 April 2014 - 02:58 AM.

[wanderer]

ShinVector, on 10 April 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

Let's face it guys.. The real reason why you feel LRMs takes 'skillz' to use is just because you don't have people to sacrifice themselve getting locks for you.
You have locks.. You own.. That has always how it was for LRM boating not that the LRMs themselves need buffing to make them unavioable.

I was busy watching those. So far, most of what I noticed is your teams did exactly what they should do, which meant that you get your locks, you get your shots, and you get your damage and wins. When it doesn't? You die like a dog.

Welcome to the world of support weaponry, son. Your ability to be effective in IDF mode is as effective as your team is- they were good, held your targets locked and in the open (especially on Arctic, where they all ran out to defend the base) where it's easy mode. Forest Colony? Bunched up nice and thick right in the kill zone, and you die far far too late for it to matter as the dakka takes the lion's share of the kills. Hell, a Thunderbolt was up there at the top, and they're not what we call meta-powered juggernauts. Moreover, you should never have died in the first place, but spent most of your time lined up with the one narrow firing lane begging to be shot at.

Frozen City? You run into opponents that actually have ECM, repeatedly fail at getting into position, charge forward to abandon the guy getting pasted behind you, and stand on a hill trading shots with another LRM boat while getting hit from four sides and fold like a cheap table. Most of your damage comes from that last desperate trade-off with the Battlemaster who didn't die and your big kill is shooting a gunless Dragon to death while it does a sacrifice decoy run instead of looking for targets that actually needed killing. In other words, yes. You were an LRM noob.

On two of the three matches I watched, your performance was sub-par...and on Alpine, you couldn't have been handed much of a better situation. That's what you get in noob mode, total dependence on your fellows.

This is what I get out of 30 tubes vs. your 60.



Now, please. Tell me that there's no skill to getting the most out of your missiles after comparing your numbers and mine.

[ShinVector]

wanderer, on 10 April 2014 - 11:28 PM, said:

Most of your damage comes from that last desperate trade-off with the Battlemaster who didn't die and your big kill is shooting a gunless Dragon to death while it does a sacrifice decoy run instead of looking for targets that actually needed killing. In other words, yes. You were an LRM noob.

On two of the three matches I watched, your performance was sub-par...and on Alpine, you couldn't have been handed much of a better situation. That's what you get in noob mode, total dependence on your fellows.

This is what I get out of 30 tubes vs. your 60.
Now, please. Tell me that there's no skill to getting the most out of your missiles after comparing your numbers and mine.

Ohh please forgive me great master of LRMs my total play time of LRM15 inclusive of Archive is 1hr. (You thought I was joking on the LRM noob part ?)
I guess you missed the point... I am not seriously trying to be an LRM master.. It is just to prove a point... Playing like a noob still gets you damage and kills.

Go try that with medium lasers at 250ms++.

Anyway what you are talking about.. 5min 13s.. I totally killed that dude... Not watching closely are you.

Edited by ShinVector, 10 April 2014 - 11:56 PM.

[Kyynele]

ShinVector, on 10 April 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

I guess you missed the point... I am not seriously trying to be an LRM master.. It is just to prove a point... Playing like a noob still gets you damage and kills.

I think you could make the exact same argument for AC40. At least one friend of mine who started late got his first 9 kill game within 10 days of starting to play.

Another friend of mine started during the LRM buff period and piloted the trial stalkers since they were supposed to be easymode. Despite surviving to the end of the match several times, he did under 200 damage in every match and ended up with a KDR under 0.20.

I'm not presenting these as proof either way. Things just aren't quite that black and white.

I personally value good brawling over sniping and artillery, sadly the current balance strongly favors pretty much all long range systems over short range ones.

Also, I think the biggest problem now that LRMs aren't terribad is ECM. If one team has ECM and the other one doesn't, if both sides have some LRMs, even around an equal amount of LRMs, the ones with ECM are much more likely to come out on top.

LRMs themselves might be slightly overpowered, but I think the flight speed is good. Simply shortening the target decay time could IMO make getting into cover more sensible. Or maybe keep the target decay time as it is and just lock on the last position the target was seen in, not magically tracking them behind obstacles. Or something.

Edited by Kyynele, 11 April 2014 - 03:33 AM.

[ShinVector]

Kyynele, on 11 April 2014 - 03:23 AM, said:

I think you could make the exact same argument for AC40. At least one friend of mine who started late got his first 9 kill game within 10 days of starting to play.
.....
LRMs themselves might be slightly overpowered, but I think the flight speed is good. Simply shortening the target decay time could IMO make getting into cover more sensible. Or maybe keep the target decay time as it is and just lock on the last position the target was seen in, not magically tracking them behind obstacles. Or something.

Aren't new people in special low ELO land when they just start ? Where there are people standstill for you to headshot them ?
Unless you are referring to premade groups.

ECM exists more right now.. Because of LRMs..

Like I sad... 1 LRM boat can be dealt with but when there are multiple.. It gets too hard.... PUG will not push, they will just hide behind cover like people tell them..

Probably a decently fast Pre made strike team could possible flank surprise and destroy them before anyone realises.
But when I solo PUG... Forget that happening... RARE...
Tonight I saw a match with.. LRM5 Oxide, LRM Griffin, LRM Highlander,... I chased away the Oxide and Griffin that was camping the Crimson straits mountain... Saw the highlander at the bottom isolated... Knew he was a priority target.. ARTYed him.. Took me a while but I double legged him but unfortunately the Griffin got me with LRM on my retreat...
I do not know whether that actually helped the eventual stream roll...

It was bad enough with PPC+AC heavy matches.. But they have their draw backs...
LRMs are just too good a deterrent against light and mediums without ECM right now.

My main point.. If only people didn't boat as an easy way out.
Anyway glad come to agreement that with all the power ups.. The tracking becomes too good.

Meanwhile.. I will have to make my adjustments as well.. Have to make sacrifices to get AMS.

Edited by ShinVector, 11 April 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[wanderer]

ShinVector, on 10 April 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Ohh please forgive me great master of LRMs my total play time of LRM15 inclusive of Archive is 1hr. (You thought I was joking on the LRM noob part ?)
I guess you missed the point... I am not seriously trying to be an LRM master.. It is just to prove a point... Playing like a noob still gets you damage and kills.

So will any weapon, and that's the point- if an LRM rack was a "no-skill" weapon, everyone would put up numbers like mine. If I'm getting your numbers with half the guns...then there's a skill factor involved in their use. If no weapons could kill when used by a newbie,nobody would be getting kills for months. Moreover, you're not a total noob- you've been playing for HOW long now?

Quote

Go try that with medium lasers at 250ms++.

250 ping is horrible for this game. At that point, you should be happy Mr. Hi Ping (sounds like a Liao name!) is mounting something that relies on more than direct-fire whiff-fests. Although speaking of ML's....


Behold my incredible stats in this LRM boat!

...well, that's what the other team was bitching about in chat.

No LRMs. 1 MPL, 3 ML's, and a pair of Streaks.

Quote

Anyway what you are talking about.. 5min 13s.. I totally killed that dude... Not watching closely are you.

Fair enough, I was too busy watching you die for some reason and probably missed it facepalming. ^ ^

Edited by wanderer, 11 April 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[Johnathan Mercer]

Latorque, on 10 April 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Uhm...i'd like nothing more than LRMs returning to their pre-patch speed (god knows they were awfully annoying and powerful enough already - but avoidable. By now, they've made the game even more static than before); but where exactly is the silver lining? "Reducing" the speed to 160m/s isn't exactly a blessing. Even less so with borked assault spiders doing a splendid job of spotting.

To be completely honest with you Latorque, that would be the worst thing to do. I've ran all array of weapon systems and rolls in the mechs I own and understand one thing. Missiles needed some form of buff. For the people who say they're no skill weapons, I shake my head at them simply because of one reason. You don't only need a solid lock, but you need to KEEP that lock. You need coordinated teamwork, a good spotter or brawler, to hold that lock while you dish out the punishment. You need another guy to watch your back when the enemy comes for you.

I read through this entire thread and saw nobody mention anything about this. This game, above all takes teamwork, a skill a lot of players in this game lack, especially in the world of the pug games. If you want to nerf the lrm's, all you need do is be a disorganized bunch of barbarians, like most players in this slowly forming e-sport, are becoming.

The truth of LRM's is that they need teamwork, that's all. So if you dislike them then don't work with a team. It's as simple as joining the rest of the disorganized barbarian hoard.

I will say this, though. They did need a speed increase. Maybe not as hardcore as the one they did, but when it takes 8 to 10 seconds to hit a target with a missile, where it only takes 1 to 2 seconds at most to smack a guy with an AC cannon, yeah, something needs to be fixed.

[wanderer]

fletchenator910, on 11 April 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

What I don't understand is why they have not decreased the amount of LRM ammo that your mech can carry per ton. The amount of ammo that players can carry for LRM launchers in this game is completely unrealistic, 180 missiles per ton? This is way off from battletech tabletop.
This missiles per ton for tabletop is as follows:

• LRM-5 = 24 Missiles/ton

That's 24 shots per ton- 24x5 = 120.

They got the same ammo per ton increase as ballistics generally did, because frankly, they'd run out of ammo before half the match went otherwise- AFTER you added more ammo.
A game that lasted half the time in terms of TT play that a match does in MWO (7.5 minutes) would be a whopping 45 turns worth of firing your guns. Even with the 50% increase, you normally want half again as many tons of ammo to supply a launcher in MWO. AFTER they added 50% more ammo per ton, mind you. 3 tons of ammo would be considered insane for most launchers in TT. The equivalent in MWO terms would be 4 1/2 tons per launcher.

Finding a 'Mech that packs that many shots in TT (for an LRM 5, that'd be 60 rounds of fire!) would be insane. Twenty-four is usually considered liberal, 16-12 is normal, and plenty of 'Mechs only pack enough to 8 shots. Eight.

How many weapons in MWO do you only fire 8-16 times in a given round that have any real reach whatsoever?

[Johnathan Mercer]

wanderer, on 11 April 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

That's 24 shots per ton- 24x5 = 120.

They got the same ammo per ton increase as ballistics generally did, because frankly, they'd run out of ammo before half the match went otherwise- AFTER you added more ammo.
A game that lasted half the time in terms of TT play that a match does in MWO (7.5 minutes) would be a whopping 45 turns worth of firing your guns. Even with the 50% increase, you normally want half again as many tons of ammo to supply a launcher in MWO. AFTER they added 50% more ammo per ton, mind you. 3 tons of ammo would be considered insane for most launchers in TT. The equivalent in MWO terms would be 4 1/2 tons per launcher.

Finding a 'Mech that packs that many shots in TT (for an LRM 5, that'd be 60 rounds of fire!) would be insane. Twenty-four is usually considered liberal, 16-12 is normal, and plenty of 'Mechs only pack enough to 8 shots. Eight.

How many weapons in MWO do you only fire 8-16 times in a given round that have any real reach whatsoever?

Also, don't forget that the most armor you could have in the tabletop game was about 40 if I remember right.

[no one]

fletchenator910, on 11 April 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

What I don't understand is why they have not decreased the amount of LRM ammo that your mech can carry per ton. The amount of ammo that players can carry for LRM launchers in this game is completely unrealistic, 180 missiles per ton? This is way off from battletech tabletop.
This missiles per ton for tabletop is as follows:

• LRM-5 = 24 Missiles/ton
  
• LRM-10 = 12 Missiles/ton
  
• LRM-15 = 8 Missiles/ton
  
• LRM-20 = 6 Missiles/ton

Please people, don't cite Battletech rules if you've never played the game. It's glaringly obvious you glanced at Sarna for all of twenty seconds to try and find something that would confirm your bias. The 'ammo per ton' is 'shots per ton'. An LRM15 shoots 15x8 = 120 missiles per ton of ammo, same as any other LRM. MWO gives you 180 missiles per ton, or 50% more ammo, but MWO also doubled the armor per ton on all 'Mechs and removed the critical damage advantage of LRMs, SRMs, and LBX auto cannons.

Edited by no one, 11 April 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[no one]

fletchenator910, on 11 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

You're right, I've never played table top. I was never claiming to either.

So what you're saying is; "Just because I'm supporting my argument with rules from the tabletop, does not mean I'm familiar with battle tech." ? You know that people who know nothing about the game will take that misinformation seriously, right?

fletchenator910, on 11 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be able to take as much ammo into the field as we do right now. Its highly unrealistic. LRMs are ruining the game atm, something needs to be done about it.

Why is it unrealistic?

Besides the ammo per ton was, and has never been, the core balance issue of any weapon in MWO. For ballistics it's over-range and instant convergence, and for LRMs it's massed indirect fire and indirect fire accuracy that creates problems. All balance suffers from the heat system.

If you don't believe me, try running an LRM light 'Mech.

Edited by no one, 12 April 2014 - 11:51 AM.

[Thunder Child]

Redcrow, you are so right. Even if they don't put the Repair part of R&R back in, they should at least put back in the Reload! Suddenly Lasers will become very popular! Simplest way to get a Meta Change. And no doubt there will be a valid counter argument against the Reload option. All I ask is that it be sensible and well thought out. Not some "No, LRMs are broken, not ACs. Don't make us pay for AMMO" Or anything like that. I realise that there are also some players out there rolling in C-Bills, who will not care if they burn 1.5 Million in missiles per match. Good for them. I know I am always struggling to have enough C-Bills.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

re-arm and reload was tossed becasue it kept new people from coming in. Someone who had 80,000,000 cbills stored up from closed beta could fire at will. But somebody with 0 cbills ran empty all the time. How does that bring in new blood?

At least you did not exclude dakka from your observation about how impossible it would be in real life. But then again. I don't see huge fusion powered mechs running around for real anywhere either. It is a game. Make all the excuses you want. But a real world rifle is more accurate over range then ANY weapon ingame. 1000M for a missle, really! Sorry a sidewinder is good for about 30 miles!

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 12 April 2014 - 05:06 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Agreed, Bartholomew. I knew that one was coming.

Perhaps, have new players not receive the Reload cost till their Cadet Bonus ran out? Of course, PGI would have to have some sort of tutorial system in place advising them of this, which is about as likely as them fixing LRM guidance.

At this point, I'm merely trying to offer options that aren't of the "TEAMWORK OP!!! NERF LURMS!!!".

The main problem as I see it, is that we have C3 automatically implemented on all Chassis. To be fair, any Modern war system has this feature, for the most part. But when Battletech was first concieved, such technology was heavy and large, hence the special equipment required for it (C3). The only way we could re-implement C3 as actual components would be to also have an integrated Voice Comm in game to allow players to report what they see, and where. I can imagine the outcry if the features normally provided by C3 were removed now....