4349 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

wolf74, on 08 July 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

This was True in the Pre-10 Heat Minimum Days of MWO, (AKA my 3 SRM-6, 7 Heat Sink Commando). But it not a Problem Now due to the Minimum 10 Heat Sink Rule (Which was part of CBT) the "Negative Mass" is corrected by having to add the Heat Sink to get back to 10 Heat Sink.

For those who don't know all the Engines in MWO that are 250 Rated and Up Match the CBT Weights for them. All the Engine at or below 245 are Lighter than the CBT weight by 1 Ton for every Heat Sink under 10 it does not have. But when you add that Heat Sink weight back in it will Match the CBT weight for said engine.

However, nine of the UrbanMech's 11 Heat Sinks are outside of the Engine (2 in each leg, 2 in each side torso, and 1 in the Head), which puts the base Engine (the form in which it sits in the inventory) underweight.

A Std 60 Engine, by itself & including the base 10 HS, weighs 1.5 tons in BattleTech (TechManual, pg. 49), a standard Gyro for such an Engine weighs 1 ton in BattleTech ((Engine Rating)/100, round up to nearest whole number; TechManual, pg. 50), and a standard Cockpit weighs 3 tons (TechManual, pg. 52).
With those values, a MWO Std 60 "Engine" (which combines the weights of the Engine, Gyro, and Cockpit, then subtracts the weight of any externally-mounted base HS at 1 ton per HS) would weigh -2.5 tons (1.5 for the Engine + 1 for the Gyro + 3 for the cockpit - 8 for the external base HS).

Though, the interesting thing is that the XL 100 Engine has the same weight as the Std 60 Engine in BattleTech (1.5 tons for both) but has twice as many internal HS (4 for the former, vs 2 for the latter); the weight for the MWO XL 100 "Engine" should be -0.5 tons, but both the game & Smurfy show it as 0.5 tons (with the MWO XL 105 through XL 120 at 1.0 tons & the MWO XL 125 at 2 tons).
In other words, some of the lightest XL "Engines" are up to 1 ton heavier than they "should be".
Though, that doesn't help the UrbanMech, as the gulf is substantially wider & it actually needs the weights to be correct in order to work.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 08 July 2014 - 03:53 PM.

[Utilyan]

Strum Wealh, on 08 July 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

All of those actually have the required number of timeline-appropriate variants.

The Assassin has the ASN-21, ASN-101, and ASN-23 & the Guillotine has the GLT-3N, GLT-4L, GLT-4P, and GLT-5M.

Likewise, the UrbanMech has its UM-R60, UM-R60L, UM-R50 (a rare "armless" version mentioned in TRO 3039, where all of the weapons & equipment are placed in toe torso sections), and UM-R63 variants.

The problem with the UrbanMech is that the way PGI dealt with Engine(/gyro/cockpit/HS) weights is such that the UrbanMech's 60-rated Engine would have negative mass, and apparently the game could not handle that (which is why there are no sub-100-rated Engines) - which makes it impossible to create the canonical stock loadouts for any of the UrbanMech variants.

If you can't create canonical stock load out of urbanmech then the game itself is not canonical battletech.

So with the magical leeway of being non canonical anyway there is nothing to stop releasing a urbanmech with is OWN engine class "quirk".

There is TONS of programing logical tricks available. For example BY quirk if you shove a 100 std engine into a urbanmech it changes to an effective 60 std engine, all weight, tonnage, space techno-magically applied by the lost-tech Urbanmech and how it "interfaces" with the engines.

Designers and programmer can do what they wana do. The idea their hands are tied behind their back is kinda silly.


Also they already have the freedom to releasing variants of mechs that never existed, best example is the 1X blackjack and all the champ mechs.


"stock" is only a mental label and construct, There is nothing to stop them from releasing UM-X1, UM-X2, UM-X3 , 3 versions of Urbanmech with "MWO friendly" Qualifications.

[wolf74]

Strum Wealh, on 08 July 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

However, nine of the UrbanMech's 11 Heat Sinks are outside of the Engine (2 in each leg, 2 in each side torso, and 1 in the Head), which puts the base Engine (the form in which it sits in the inventory) underweight.

A Std 60 Engine, by itself & including the base 10 HS, weighs 1.5 tons in BattleTech (TechManual, pg. 49), a standard Gyro for such an Engine weighs 1 ton in BattleTech ((Engine Rating)/100, round up to nearest whole number; TechManual, pg. 50), and a standard Cockpit weighs 3 tons (TechManual, pg. 52).
With those values, a MWO Std 60 "Engine" (which combines the weights of the Engine, Gyro, and Cockpit, then subtracts the weight of any externally-mounted base HS at 1 ton per HS) would weigh -2.5 tons (1.5 for the Engine + 1 for the Gyro + 3 for the cockpit - 8 for the external base HS).

Though, the interesting thing is that the XL 100 Engine weighs less than the Std 60 Engine in BattleTech (1.5 tons for the former, vs 2.5 tons for the latter) but has twice as many internal HS (4 for the former, vs 2 for the latter); the weight for the MWO XL 100 "Engine" should be -0.5 tons, but both the game & Smurfy show it as 0.5 tons (with the MWO XL 105 through XL 120 at 1.0 tons & the MWO XL 125 at 2 tons).
In other words, some of the lightest XL "Engines" are up to 1 ton heavier than they "should be".
Though, that doesn't help the UrbanMech, as the gulf is substantially wider & it actually needs the weights to be correct in order to work.

Sorry to Say Your Finger Slipped to the Compact Engine Weight on Page 49 VS Standard Engine weight for the Rate 60 Engine. Both the Std 60 & the XL 100 are 1.5 tons.

I just Check all the Engine STD & XL from 100-400, You are Correct on the XL 100 Engine. It is 1 ton too heavy But All the Other Engines Checked out. The Question is Can the Crytek Engine handle a Negative weight. It should be (-0.5ton)

Edit: Guessing they Used the 2 Ton Gyro on the 100XL VS the 1 ton Gyro It should use. Will have to Look in to the Code to see. Looked in the Code they just have the weight Typed. So it was 1 of 2 thing.
1. the CryEngine Cannot take Negative Number
Or
2. someone misread-ed the (-) sign as a Dash.

Also Nice write up there too Strum Wealh

Edited by wolf74, 08 July 2014 - 03:34 PM.

[Tank]

I propose make him locked as Clan omnies in terms of engine and heat sinks - don't think anyone want to meddle with Urb, it's solely a collectible and fun for fun little mech.

[Strum Wealh]

Utilyan, on 08 July 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

If you can't create canonical stock load out of urbanmech then the game itself is not canonical battletech.

So with the magical leeway of being non canonical anyway there is nothing to stop releasing a urbanmech with is OWN engine class "quirk".

There is TONS of programing logical tricks available. For example BY quirk if you shove a 100 std engine into a urbanmech it changes to an effective 60 std engine, all weight, tonnage, space techno-magically applied by the lost-tech Urbanmech and how it "interfaces" with the engines.

Designers and programmer can do what they wana do. The idea their hands are tied behind their back is kinda silly.


Also they already have the freedom to releasing variants of mechs that never existed, best example is the 1X blackjack and all the champ mechs.


"stock" is only a mental label and construct, There is nothing to stop them from releasing UM-X1, UM-X2, UM-X3 , 3 versions of Urbanmech with "MWO friendly" Qualifications.

The BJ-1X does exist in BattleTech, and has existed in BT longer than MWO has been around; the BJ-1X appeared in TRO 3039 (published in June 2009), while the trailers for MW5 (the project that was eventually scrapped and replaced with MWO) didn't appear until the following month.
So, what are you on about with statements like "...releasing variants of mechs that never existed, best example is the 1X blackjack..."?

Also, none of the MechWarrior (or MechCommander) video games are canonical.
"Computer games like MechCommander and the MechWarrior franchise are based in canon and based in the BattleTech universe, but are themselves not generally considered to be canon. This includes the MechCommander introduction. The fact is, the designers took a little artistic license is all. A Hunchback with Full-Head Ejection and a Raven with SRM 2s are *possible* variants, but they have not been canonized as such yet." - Herbert Beas, as BT Line Developer, Oct. 04, 2011 (source)

However, it is PGI that made one of the design elements & major features of MWO that the 'Mechs implemented are generally faithful representations of what they are in the franchise's source material (that is, BattleTech) - more specifically, as faithful representations of the 'Mechs as they appear in the BT record sheets. It is highly unlikely that they're suddenly going to dramatically deviate from that now, after releasing 38 chassis and over 100 individual variants.

That the UrbanMech cannot be likewise faithfully reproduced is a result of how PGI grouped the Engine, Gyro, and Cockpit into a single unit while not counting the base 10 HS as part of the Engine weight (combined, the opposite of what is done in BT). Though, that system is likely now integral to the functioning of the game and possibly mightn't be able to be corrected (assuming PGI has the technical capacity to attempt it in the first place) without breaking the whole thing (possibly, catastrophically & irreversibly so).
And unless and until they can do exactly that, the UrbanMech essentially has zero hope of being in MWO in the foreseeable future, if ever.

----------

wolf74, on 08 July 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Sorry to Say Your Finger Slipped to the Compact Engine Weight on Page 49 VS Standard Engine weight for the Rate 60 Engine. Both the Std 60 & the XL 100 are 1.5 tons.

I just Check all the Engine STD & XL from 100-400, You are Correct on the XL 100 Engine. It is 1 ton too heavy But All the Other Engines Checked out. The Question is Can the Crytek Engine handle a Negative weight. It should be (-0.5ton)

Edit: Guessing they Used the 2 Ton Gyro on the 100XL VS the 1 ton Gyro It should use. Will have to Look in to the Code to see. Looked in the Code they just have the weight Typed. So it was 1 of 2 thing.
1. the CryEngine Cannot take Negative Number
Or
2. someone misread-ed the (-) sign as a Dash.

Also Nice write up there too Strum Wealh

It could rather easily be both (1) AND (2)...

Though, if the XL 100 is the only one that is both off in terms of weight AND hard-coded for the current (incorrect) weight, it's probably purposeful on PGI's part to allow the MWO XL "Engines" to have the same range of ratings as the MWO Std "Engines" (as opposed to Stds starting at 100 and XLs starting at 105) - and probably to do so while getting around some issue that CryEngine may have with negative numbers for the MWO "Engine" weights.

[IraqiWalker]

Locking it in like clan mechs would solve the problem. That way they can implement the STD 60 without causing any stress on the program's structure. They can even give it the negative mass value they want.

[Felicitatem Parco]

IraqiWalker, on 09 July 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Locking it in like clan mechs would solve the problem. That way they can implement the STD 60 without causing any stress on the program's structure. They can even give it the negative mass value they want.

... OR, instead of making it unplayable, they could give it a MW:O friendly engine and put a cap of 150 on it. Then there would be no problems.

[HlynkaCG]

Dawnstealer, on 07 July 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Well, I've always thought there was a market both for mechs like the Urbie (that does have enough variants) and for other popular mechs that don't (think Assassin, Guillotine, etc).

One way to do to it would be to have a single variant for these mechs, but you have to own three of them (so you would have to own one Urbie, one Assassin, and one Guillotine) to unlock the Elite efficiencies. Likewise, if you got a fourth single-variant mech, you'd need an additional two of some other single-variant mechs in order to unlock them again.

What are you talking about? We have at least 4 period appropriate Urbanmech variants not counting the IIC.

UM-R60
UM-R60L
UM-R62
UM-R63

[wolf74]

Unless the Add Extra hard points to the UM-R60(3025 & 3039 TROs) or the UM-R60L(Light Record sheet book). Both mechs would have the SAME layout. If (big if there) I remember correctly the UM-R60L Skimmed on Armor to get the AC/20 in. Both were made in the Tech 1 Era of CBT.


The UM-R63 (3050TRO's) adds an extra Energy to the RT. I don't Remember the UM-R62 what book is that listed in?

[HlynkaCG]

wolf74, on 09 July 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

Unless the Add Extra hard points to the UM-R60(3025 & 3039 TROs) or the UM-R60L(Light Record sheet book). Both mechs would have the SAME layout. If (big if there) I remember correctly the UM-R60L Skimmed on Armor to get the AC/20 in. Both were made in the Tech 1 Era of CBT.

The UM-R63 (3050TRO's) adds an extra Energy to the RT. I don't Remember the UM-R62 what book is that listed in?

The UM-R62 was in one of the Solaris box sets as well as the Capellan Confederation Field Manual IIRC, all I know Is that I have a data-sheet for it in my old Mechwarrior RPG campaign files.

ETA
As for loadout, It ditches a heat-sink, adds a torso mounted machine gun, and has a slightly bigger engine.

Still slow as balls though

There's also the UM-R61 which is essentially a R60 with more ammo.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 09 July 2014 - 09:28 PM.

[Dawnstealer]

HlynkaCG, on 09 July 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

What are you talking about? We have at least 4 period appropriate Urbanmech variants not counting the IIC.

UM-R60
UM-R60L
UM-R62
UM-R63

Read that quote again, HlynkaCG. In particular, read the part in the parenthesis that specifically mention that there's enough variants of the Urbie. See the part that says: "[color=#959595] (that does have enough variants)[/color] "?

I wasn't talking about the urbie in that context, simply as an example of mechs that PGI doesn't want to implement. I was saying that one way that mechs without enough variants could be implemented is to have a "release one and then you have to own three of these single mechs to level them up."

And to the other comments: they [the other mechs I mentioned, NOT, and I want to make this absolutely clear: NOT the Ubie] DO have "enough variants," but those variants aren't very different from another. I guess you could retcon it, or do some handwaving with the hardpoints, but the actual stock variants are real similar to one another.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 09 July 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

Dawnstealer, on 09 July 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

And to the other comments: they [the other mechs I mentioned, NOT, and I want to make this absolutely clear: NOT the Ubie] DO have "enough variants," but those variants aren't very different from another. I guess you could retcon it, or do some handwaving with the hardpoints, but the actual stock variants are real similar to one another.

You are forgetting that the exact same thing could be said of the Atlas, Quickdraw, and Jaegarmech, not to mention most of the Awesomes.

Following the same pattern we might see something along the lines of...

UM-R60
Right arm 1 Ballistic
Left arm 3 Energy
2 of 4 Jumpjets

UM-R60L
Right arm 3 Ballistic
Left arm 1 Energy
2 of 4 Jumpjets

UM-R62
Right arm 1 Ballistic
Left arm 1 Energy
Right Torso 1 Ballistic
Left Torso 1 Energy
2 of 2 Jumpjets
Increased Engine cap

UM-R63
Right arm 1 Ballistic
Left arm 1 Energy
Right Torso 1 Energy
Left Torso 1 Energy
2 of 4 Jumpjets
+1 Module slot

[Ovion]

There's 3-4 easily usable variants in the timeline, and one later variant, that you can currently make using spiders.

But if we want Urbies - make them, show some support, flood the game with them!

Urbanmech Thread

[Johnny Reb]

I hate this thread and PGI's terrible joke, that wasn't funny or a joke. Lets lock this, PLEASE!

[MonkeyCheese]

Johnny Reb, on 10 July 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I hate this thread and PGI's terrible joke, that wasn't funny or a joke. Lets lock this, PLEASE!

The fact that this is the only old announcement threat that isnt locked makes me think either the mech is coming or they just want to punish people more.



Anyway what would be the theoretical max speed say with an xl engine in an urbanmech in the mwo system?

[HlynkaCG]

MonkeyCheese, on 10 July 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

Anyway what would be the theoretical max speed say with an xl engine in an urbanmech in the mwo system?

Depends on what they set the engine cap at.

Stock the UM-R62 goes the same speed as an Atlas, assuming they set the cap around 150 (I don't imagine them going much higher than that) we be looking at 80 - 90 kph.

[MonkeyCheese]

HlynkaCG, on 10 July 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

Depends on what they set the engine cap at.

Stock the UM-R62 goes the same speed as an Atlas, assuming they set the cap around 150 (I don't imagine them going much higher than that) we be looking at 80 - 90 kph.

Good to know. I can handle kitfox speeds and have been driving 90-99kph ravens since closed beta. At least in the right hands if it ever comes it might not be dead on arrival like some people say it will. stock tho...

[Alaskan Nobody]

MonkeyCheese, on 10 July 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

The fact that this is the only old announcement threat that isnt locked makes me think either the mech is coming or they just want to punish people more.

When I was first starting one of the developers admitted that the fans of the Urbie had managed to sway the large portion of the anti-Urbie crowd over to their side, and hinted that needing to change how the engines work was the big thing preventing it being added.

Since then I have assumed (dangerous I know) that, when they have the time, that is one of the things on their "to-do list"
Not holding my breath (they have a LOT on that list) but I am waiting.

[Hillslam]

Every day I see this thread update.

Every day I get excited.

Every day I am disappoint.

[Dawnstealer]

HlynkaCG, on 09 July 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

You are forgetting that the exact same thing could be said of the Atlas, Quickdraw, and Jaegarmech, not to mention most of the Awesomes.

Following the same pattern we might see something along the lines of...

UM-R60
Right arm 1 Ballistic
Left arm 3 Energy
2 of 4 Jumpjets

UM-R60L
Right arm 3 Ballistic
Left arm 1 Energy
2 of 4 Jumpjets

UM-R62
Right arm 1 Ballistic
Left arm 1 Energy
Right Torso 1 Ballistic
Left Torso 1 Energy
2 of 2 Jumpjets
Increased Engine cap

UM-R63
Right arm 1 Ballistic
Left arm 1 Energy
Right Torso 1 Energy
Left Torso 1 Energy
2 of 4 Jumpjets
+1 Module slot

I'm not sure if this is an ESL thing or not: I've repeatedly said the Urbanmech has enough variants.

In other words, the Urbanmech is not one of the mechs I'm talking about that lacks variants.

I...don't know another way to put that, but by all means post another list of the variants of Urbanmechs, I guess?