347 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 April 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

You don't seem to understand how terrible it is to drastically alter a product after initial sale. They could easily buff other mechs slightly to make up for it and slightly nerf the Victor. In small steps of say 2.5-5% and at most alter it by 10%. Altering a mech negatively massively is totally unacceptable. They also needed to adjust all Mechs in the weight class similarly. Targeting one mech and making it handle WORSE than a highlander is bad. Yes a Victor should be as maneuverable as an Awesome. The jump jets take up extra weight and space so that's the trade off for taking them. It shouldn't be penalized just because it can take jump jets because not everyone wants to use a Victor with jump jets.

Any game where there is active balancing and patching going on you have to expect that what works well now may not work well next patch. It comes with the territory. This isn't a vacuum cleaner store where the product you buy is remains unchanged the moment you walk out the door. It's a living breathing game where stuff is subject to change.

You have been a member of this community for more than a year. The game has radically changed from what it was in January 2013. How could you be surprised by balance changes? Plenty of mechs that have been paid for with real money are better or worse off today than they were when they first came out. That is just how it works when balance is an important element to your design goals. This is the risk you knowingly take whenever you buy a mech. If you can't handle that level of uncertainty you really need to stop buying hero mechs.

However, the fact of the matter is this: If you look at some of the best players and best performing competitive teams out there, you will see them running Dragon Slayers en masse. If it was really as bad as you are saying than you would see a shift away from them particularly in competitive tournaments.

Here is an example from two very capable teams in last night RHOD match: Lords vs SWK. Same tonnage, but Lords brought mass Dragon Slayers, while SWK favored fewer, but heavier Highlanders and Banshees. The result was that Lords did better in their dragon slayer and the only reason SWK had a few guys left was because time ran out. Now I'm not saying they won because of the mechs, but if the DS was as bad as you are saying, then clearly this should not have been as decisive.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I'd like to point something out... People are complaining about the Victor agility nerf and yet 90% of the time people get a Victor and mount it for PPC+AC FLD alpha meta cheese, where, ironically enough, you really don't need agility.
Sure there are people like my self who use it for brawling and this nerf does hurt it a bit but the sad fact is the vast majority outfit it for the FLD PPC AC meta.

Thats our point it did not hurt the jump sniper meta it hurt the small percentage that were high alpha close in brawlers. Even the high DPS builds it did not jurt much. So it was a huge nurf to say 5% of Victor pilots and a small one for the 95%. Makes you think maybe they should address long range high pinpoint damage. Say making it so that over 450m or something you cant get perfect convergence.

[DeathlyEyes]

Jman5, on 02 April 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

Any game where there is active balancing and patching going on you have to expect that what works well now may not work well next patch. It comes with the territory. This isn't a vacuum cleaner store where the product you buy is remains unchanged the moment you walk out the door. It's a living breathing game where stuff is subject to change.

You have been a member of this community for more than a year. The game has radically changed from what it was in January 2013. How could you be surprised by balance changes? Plenty of mechs that have been paid for with real money are better or worse off today than they were when they first came out. That is just how it works when balance is an important element to your design goals. This is the risk you knowingly take whenever you buy a mech. If you can't handle that level of uncertainty you really need to stop buying hero mechs.

However, the fact of the matter is this: If you look at some of the best players and best performing competitive teams out there, you will see them running Dragon Slayers en masse. If it was really as bad as you are saying than you would see a shift away from them particularly in competitive tournaments.

Here is an example from two very capable teams in last night RHOD match: Lords vs SWK. Same tonnage, but Lords brought mass Dragon Slayers, while SWK favored fewer, but heavier Highlanders and Banshees. The result was that Lords did better in their dragon slayer and the only reason SWK had a few guys left was because time ran out. Now I'm not saying they won because of the mechs, but if the DS was as bad as you are saying, then clearly this should not have been as decisive.

That's not even the point, Those guys are using the Dragon Slayer in a way that would be affected minimally by the nerf.

[LawDawg]

Coralld, on 02 April 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

I'd like to point something out... People are complaining about the Victor agility nerf and yet 90% of the time people get a Victor and mount it for PPC+AC FLD alpha meta cheese, where, ironically enough, you really don't need agility.
Sure there are people like my self who use it for brawling and this nerf does hurt it a bit but the sad fact is the vast majority outfit it for the FLD PPC AC meta.

Ya, when you "Cheese". you have biased yourself. So you cant come back from that with your latter statement. They Went TO far on Victor (like LRM's) instead of doing incrementally.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

However, the fact of the matter is this: If you look at some of the best players and best performing competitive teams out there, you will see them running Dragon Slayers en masse. If it was really as bad as you are saying than you would see a shift away from them particularly in competitive tournaments.

You missed the point. It was not a nurf to jump snipers running the AC PPC meta. It was a nurf to close in brawlers that were not a problem. That is why you still see so many Victor jump snipers. But some of us do not want to run a jump sniper meta build.

[Mark Brandhauber]

Not a victor pilot but I do drive highlanders (which IMO have definately felt the nerf more keenly than victors).The nerf has definitely increased the diversity of assault mechs on the field; I was getting tired of only seeing victors and highlanders.
I've got to say I think victors have all of the good weapons (In the right places) to be as agile as a medium or heavy that would make em a bit op (same for highlanders)..... but they still have arm mounted ballistics right? and the arm moves faster than the torso right? so I'm not sure i understand the problem....

Edited by Mark Brandhauber, 02 April 2014 - 02:34 PM.

[LawDawg]

The Dragon Slayer STILL does what does at range. Close in is where it is weak now.

The changes were to STOP "poptarting", it didnt happen.

Edited by SLDF LawDog, 02 April 2014 - 02:35 PM.

[Osric Lancaster]

Trauglodyte, on 02 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Prior to the change, the Victor was an 80 ton medium mech. By that, it was moving at nearly the same speeds (75-80 doesn't equal 98 but near to it) as medium mechs while having nearly the same agility along with JJs, more armor, and heavier payloads. When you have an imbalance like this, you need to fix it because it causes people to gravitate away from other mechs because this one is as good, if not better.

Honestly, what you should be getting out of that is that there's some inherent imbalance in the way the game favors speed over armor or firepower, because the Victor is not heavily armored. If people are dropping the extra weight on a gigantic engine and/or XL engine for an assault 'Mech because that makes it more survivable or better then something's seriously out of proportion. No one should want to make an up-armored medium 'Mech with medium 'Mech firepower out of an assault, especially if they break matches into 3/3/3/3 or something like it.

Personally I blame the terrible heat system, instant convergence and 'Mech scaling issues.

As far as jump-jet balance goes it still baffles me that they don't produce heat and almost always just slow you down. I can't see them being anything more than a forced means of overcoming the ridiculous move profile handicap that you have in assault 'Mechs. Let's face it, if JJs were that big a game changer we'd be seeing a lot more Quickdraws and a lot fewer Jaggermechs.

Jman5, on 02 April 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

Spoiler

Any game where there is active balancing and patching going on you have to expect that what works well now may not work well next patch. It comes with the territory. This isn't a vacuum cleaner store where the product you buy is remains unchanged the moment you walk out the door. It's a living breathing game where stuff is subject to change.

You have been a member of this community for more than a year. The game has radically changed from what it was in January 2013. How could you be surprised by balance changes? Plenty of mechs that have been paid for with real money are better or worse off today than they were when they first came out. That is just how it works when balance is an important element to your design goals. This is the risk you knowingly take whenever you buy a mech. If you can't handle that level of uncertainty you really need to stop buying hero mechs.

I could copy-paste this exact same argument if PGI removed every hardpoint from the Firebrand, gave it twelve center torso mounted missile hard-points then removed it's ability to torso twist. Also, 'active balancing and patching' is not the phrase I would use.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 02 April 2014 - 02:45 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Mark Brandhauber, on 02 April 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Not a victor pilot but I do drive highlanders (which IMO have definately felt the nerf more keenly than victors).The nerf has definitely increased the diversity of assault mechs on the field; I was getting tired of only seeing victors and highlanders.
I've got to say I think victors have to much of all the good weapons (In the right places) to be as agile as a medium or heavy..... but they still have arm mounted ballistics right? and the arm moves faster than the torso right? so I'm not sure i understand the problem....

Turning is the issue. It now turns slower than a Highlander with the same sized engine and as slow as an Atlas with the same sized engine.

[Gas Guzzler]

Another interesting data point.

Awesome with a STD 240 twists at 66 deg/s!!

Awesome and Victor are both 80 tons, and a Victor needs a STD 320 to twist almost as fast as an Awesome with a STD 240?

Bring the stock Victor up to 70 deg/s at least, should be higher then that though.

[Mark Brandhauber]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Another interesting data point.

Awesome with a STD 240 twists at 66 deg/s!!

Awesome and Victor are both 80 tons, and a Victor needs a STD 320 to twist almost as fast as an Awesome with a STD 240?

Bring the stock Victor up to 70 deg/s at least, should be higher then that though.

And take away the Awesomes only advantage.... I think not sir
Victors are blessed with jump jets and ballistics thats their advantage

Ejecting, My Opinion stated, There are those who have this felt nerf/balance more keenly than I, I will poke them with a stick no longer.

Edited by Mark Brandhauber, 02 April 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Osric Lancaster, on 02 April 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Honestly, what you should be getting out of that is that there's some inherent imbalance in the way the game favors speed over armor or firepower, because the Victor is not heavily armored. If people are dropping the extra weight on a gigantic engine and/or XL engine for an assault 'Mech because that makes it more survivable or better then something's seriously out of proportion. No one should want to make an up-armored medium 'Mech with medium 'Mech firepower out of an assault, especially if they break matches into 3/3/3/3 or something like it.

Speed is life, ya go slow, ya die. In all seriousness the more speed you have the more room for finesse you have. If you can pop out of cover, shoot and get back into cover minimizing the amount of damage you take, versus soaking extra damage, you gain a lot more surviveability.

Mark Brandhauber, on 02 April 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

And take away the Awesomes only advantage.... I think not sir
Victors are blessed with jump jets and ballistics thats their advantage

Those jump jets come at a cost. The Awesome needs to be reworked hitbox wise and model design wise. Ghost heat also criples the viability of the Awesome. Just because the Awesome was implemented bad doesn't mean other chassis need to suffer.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 02 April 2014 - 02:43 PM.

[LawDawg]

Dont Bring up the Awesome, that thing has been MIA since Close Beta. <Barn Door>

<EDIT> LOVE MY Awesome's. Just not worthy.

Edited by SLDF LawDog, 02 April 2014 - 02:44 PM.

[Ancih]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 April 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Hey, here are some numbers that i posted in another thread:

Atlas with a STD 300 has a torso yaw speed of 60 deg/s
Victor with a STD 320 has a torso yaw speed of 64 deg/s
Orion with a STD 300 has a torso yaw speed of 80 deg/s

The Victor should be about the same as the Orion here given it has a slightly bigger engine and slightly more tons. It is barely above the Atlas with a bigger engine!

TTHHIIISS

[Gas Guzzler]

Mark Brandhauber, on 02 April 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Not a victor pilot but I do drive highlanders (which IMO have definately felt the nerf more keenly than victors).The nerf has definitely increased the diversity of assault mechs on the field; I was getting tired of only seeing victors and highlanders.
I've got to say I think victors have all of the good weapons (In the right places) to be as agile as a medium or heavy that would make em a bit op (same for highlanders)..... but they still have arm mounted ballistics right? and the arm moves faster than the torso right? so I'm not sure i understand the problem....

The ballistic arm can't turn very far because no lower actuator.

The problem is, if you look at a few of my posts before with numbers to back up my claims, the Victor currently twists like an Atlas (VTR, STD 320, 64 deg/s, AS7, STD 300, 60 deg/s). This makes not one bit of sense. Directly before this you see that an Awesome with a STD 240 twists faster then a Victor with a STD 320. Do you understand that? It should only be slightly more sluggish than an Orion (STD 300, 80 deg/s). If this is on a linear scale then with a STD 300 a Victor should twist at 76 deg/s. I'd even say its fair with the stock 320 that it twist that fast. I mean I can understand a slight adjustment given how popular it is to drop a big XL engine into Victors, but the adjustment made was just too much.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mark Brandhauber, on 02 April 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

And take away the Awesomes only advantage.... I think not sir
Victors are blessed with jump jets and ballistics thats their advantage

Lol wut? That is a very drastic discontinuity. Ignoring the Awesome, see the above post pointing out the Atlas and Orion's specifications. And yeah those Jump Jets do require tonnage, and that's why like a said a slight adjustment is one thing but bringing it down to Atlas levels of twisting and turning doesn't make any sense.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

And take away the Awesomes only advantage.... I think not sir
Victors are blessed with jump jets and ballistics thats their advantage

The meta changes and ballistics are about to be nurfed. The thing the Awesome needs are better hit boxes so its tougher.

[NRP]

The ironic thing is the changes to the Victor (DS in particular) pretty much relegated it to the role of a poptart. With it's clumsy post-Nerf movement, it's nearly impossible to brawl with it. A damn 95 ton Banshee is more maneuverable for christ's sake.

Textbook example of an over-Nerf as far as I'm concerned.

[stjobe]

The Victor isn't supposed to be more mobile than the other assaults due to its speed, it's supposed to be more mobile than the other assaults due to its jump jets.

It's

• Faster than the Awesome, Stalker, Highlander, Atlas, and King Crab (all 3/5).
  
• Slower than the Charger (5/8).
  
• As fast as the Thug, Zeus, Cyclops, and Banshee (4/6).

And together with the Highlander, it's the only jump-capable assault 'mech in TRO:3025.

Either way, the problem isn't really with the Victor per se, the problem is the fact that torso twist speed is tightly coupled to engine size - probably a short-cut by a programmer way back when, which has had all kinds of problems during the years. This is only the latest incarnation.

Decouple torso twist speed from engine size and you could implement all kinds of interesting 'mech quirks,

[DeathlyEyes]

stjobe, on 02 April 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

The Victor isn't supposed to be more mobile than the other assaults due to its speed, it's supposed to be more mobile than the other assaults due to its jump jets.

It's

• Faster than the Awesome, Stalker, Highlander, Atlas, and King Crab (all 3/5).
  
• Slower than the Charger (5/8).
  
• As fast as the Thug, Zeus, Cyclops, and Banshee (4/6).

And together with the Highlander, it's the only jump-capable assault 'mech in TRO:3025.


Either way, the problem isn't really with the Victor per se, the problem is the fact that torso twist speed is tightly coupled to engine size - probably a short-cut by a programmer way back when, which has had all kinds of problems during the years. This is only the latest incarnation.

Decouple torso twist speed from engine size and you could implement all kinds of interesting 'mech quirks,

Except stock speeds shouldn't matter when comparing mechs and how they are affected by custom engine sizes. We aren't arguing that the Victor should be more maneuverable as other assaults. We are arguing it should be as Maneuverable. With the current changes it is less maneuverable per ton than any other mech in the game.