795 replies to this topic

[Ransack]

Dozier, on 06 April 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

Why... are you not fighting for a single player mode against AI? that is the game you are seeking

That ain't gonna happen. PGI can't make money off AI's

[Roland]

Dozier, on 06 April 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

What I wonder is...

If you do not want to play in a group. Do not want others to play as a group. Do not want to communicate. Do not want others to communicate. Do not want any randomness to the game.

Why... are you not fighting for a single player mode against AI? that is the game you are seeking

Better question:
Why don't you just AGREE with the folks who are suggesting that they make a solo queue and an unrestricted queue?

Then you'd have games where you'd be guaranteed to not have to play with or against premade teams, while at the same time allowing premade teams to play together?

EVERYONE wins.

[Dez Telinov]

For all you stat-whores and fairness warriors I got a suggestion. Have fun! Maybe this game is more your style; .
Honor is something that K/D ratio will not cover. You have it or you don't, choice is yours.

Edited by Dez Telinov, 06 April 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Roland, on 06 April 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Better question:
Why don't you just AGREE with the folks who are suggesting that they make a solo queue and an unrestricted queue?

Then you'd have games where you'd be guaranteed to not have to play with or against premade teams, while at the same time allowing premade teams to play together?

EVERYONE wins.

Here is my issue there. Yes I play allot, and do ok at times. HOWEVER, this where the problem is going to happen there.

I sometimes group with excellent players, and sometimes not so good ones. I will try to learn from the better, and help the lesser. Now with a premade it is pretty random as to the skill level of the groups you get matched with. I can help the lesser guys when they face a better opponent in random games, I watch out for um.

I know most of these formed groups are going to be more organized, and higher skilled than some of these guys. It will not go well and just turn them off from group drops and more than likely the game all together when they cant play with friends.

Its the same thing that basically happens in 12 mans and why few new groups form up and stay with it.

added: what do you think is going to happen when 4 guys from the new player section form up to try it out and land with more organized groups every match? Back to soloing thus hurting the group aspect of the game and coming here to rage.

Edited by Dozier, 06 April 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

yOU MEAN PEOPLE CAN SYNC DROP AT THE SAME TIME??!!1

Oh, wait, we're already doing that. While 3/3/3/3 isn't exactly fixing that issue, I don't see how it's making it any worse.

Seeing 8-10 Assault mechs on the enemy team is far more frustrating to me than seeing 6-12 of the same faction on the enemy team. AdditOnally, they will eventualy be phasing it to a faction vs factiom system, so as long as all your friends are the same faction you'll be really really really likely to see the same match ANYWAY.

[Roland]

Dozier, on 06 April 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Here is my issue there. Yes I play allot, and do ok at times. HOWEVER, this where the problem is going to happen there.

I sometimes group with excellent players, and sometimes not so good ones. I will try to learn from the better, and help the lesser. Now with a premade it is pretty random as to the skill level of the groups you get matched with. I can help the lesser guys when they face a better opponent in random games, I watch out for um.

I know most of these formed groups are going to be more organized, and higher skilled than some of these guys. It will not go well and just turn them off from group drops and more than likely the game all together when they cant play with friends.

Its the same thing that basically happens in 12 mans and why few new groups form up and stay with it.

So, to be clear... you want to be able to group with exactly 3 other players and have an advantage over solo players.. .but you don't want to allow other people to group with more than 3 players, and have an advantage over you?

Am I stating that correctly? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

To address your statement that it's why so few people play int he 12 man queue.. I have to disagree. The reason virtually no one plays in the 12 man queue is because it's almost impossible to organize exactly 12 players to form a team to play in that queue, especially when there is a huge chasm between 4-12 players where you have people who can't play together.

Redshift2k5, on 06 April 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Oh, wait, we're already doing that. While 3/3/3/3 isn't exactly fixing that issue, I don't see how it's making it any worse.

It's making it worse by causing the matchmaker to be looking for very specific chassis to fill out a team. Once you know that, you can basically game the matchmaker by simply having people drop in those chassis, which the matchmaker will then have a high liklihood of putting on your team.

[-Natural Selection-]

Roland, on 06 April 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

So, to be clear... you want to be able to group with exactly 3 other players and have an advantage over solo players.. .but you don't want to allow other people to group with more than 3 players, and have an advantage over you?

Man I WELCOME you to come on our comms and join with some of players and see how much of an advantage there is..

So you are saying because I want to join with a new player day one in the game to show him how to play, we should have to drop in a match exclusive designed to be matched with players who do nothing but group?

[Roland]

Dozier, on 06 April 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

So you are saying because I want to join with a new player day one in the game to show him how to play, we should have to drop in a match exclusive designed to be matched with players who do nothing but group?

Yes.

But, let's be clear here.... EVERYONE who groups would be in that queue. So it's not like you'd be going up against full 12 man teams. Especially given that Elo would probably be putting those new players into low ranked games.

But seriously, yes. If you group then you play in the big-boys' pool.

[Davers]

I'm a bit confused. Wasn't the point of having a lobby, instead of random drops, the ability to stay together in the same group? Won't this make everyone premades?

Dez Telinov, on 06 April 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

For all you stat-whores and fairness warriors I got a suggestion. Have fun! Maybe this game is more your style; .
Honor is something that K/D ratio will not cover. You have it or you don't, choice is yours.

This game is awesome.

[Roland]

Davers, on 06 April 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

I'm a bit confused. Wasn't the point of having a lobby, instead of random drops, the ability to stay together in the same group? Won't this make everyone premades?

When there are no premades, everyone is premades.

[Adiuvo]

With the expanded Elo brackets coming as a result as 3/3/3/3 I doubt this will be much of an issue.

[-Natural Selection-]

Roland, on 06 April 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

Yes.

But, let's be clear here.... EVERYONE who groups would be in that queue. So it's not like you'd be going up against full 12 man teams. Especially given that Elo would probably be putting those new players into low ranked games.

But seriously, yes. If you group then you play in the big-boys' pool.

Then say goodbye to damn near every person I play with. Because they are NOT serious players and half of their reason to play is social.

And hell no I don't want 4 man limits, I want none..

99% of the time I drop its in a group 2-4 (would be more buuut). My archived win/loss from over 15k matches is almost exactly 50%. Now you tell me there is a damn advantage, and I dare these people bitching to show me a win/loss with a greater than 10% margin after 5k matches.

Edited by Dozier, 06 April 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Roland]

Dozier, on 06 April 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

Then say goodbye to damn near every person I play with. Because they are NOT serious players and half of their reason to play is social.

But there's nothing that will require the unrestricted queue to be "serious". It will simply be where EVERYONE plays. So, in all liklihood, MOST of the players in it will be just like you are.. social, casual folks.

Sometimes you could go up against an organized team.. and you may lose. But it wouldn't be like the 12 man queue is now.

Surely having a small chance of playing against an organized team isn't going to make you and your friends quit, right? Since it would be so rare. Those teams would be getting matched against OTHER large teams.

Quote

And hell no I don't want 4 man limits, I want none..

I'm not clear then on what you are arguing. What I'm proposing would be no limits.

[Roadbeer]

Adiuvo, on 06 April 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

With the expanded Elo brackets coming as a result as 3/3/3/3 I doubt this will be much of an issue.

Actually, they're contracted.

Right now Elo is a scale and depending on the population at the time of launch, you have a greater or lesser chance of being in a Elo discrepancy. In the new system, there will be 3 buckets, with wait times fluctuating depending on population of each, but you're hard-coded into those three buckets.

[Ngamok]

This is why I was asking to test the Launch Module back in early March. But I suspect it's going to be harder than than you think to get 4 man + 3 solos onto the same side.

[Wintersdark]

Adiuvo, on 06 April 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

With the expanded Elo brackets coming as a result as 3/3/3/3 I doubt this will be much of an issue.

The expanded ElkO brackets make it worse, not better.

Every exposed matchmaking parameter is one that can be gamed. As the players involved are almost certainly all going to be in the same Emo bracket (and an outlier can be pushed into the 4 man group to be included regardless) the "premade" syncing group can give the matchmaker _exactly_ what its looking for on a team.

This doesn't guarantee a successful sync, but it makes one far more likely than at present.

With that said, I still think we should have the solo queue with a max of 3 man groups, and a completely unrestricted queue. Yes, it'll be exploitable as Mr. Roadbeer has said, however with a way for all 7 (or however many of them) to play together in every game there will be far fewer attempts to game the solo/small group queue.

[Adiuvo]

Roadbeer, on 06 April 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Actually, they're contracted.

Right now Elo is a scale and depending on the population at the time of launch, you have a greater or lesser chance of being in a Elo discrepancy. In the new system, there will be 3 buckets, with wait times fluctuating depending on population of each, but you're hard-coded into those three buckets.

The buckets is why I think it'll be better. Currently whenever I 4man with my friends we are frequently pulling in lower Elo players to balance out ours. MM aims to take an average team Elo and compare it to the enemy team - it doesn't match. With the brackets from the launch module we won't be able to grab these players anymore, leaving them free to stay in their actual bracket where they belong. This increases population at the middling bracket, 1000-1500, where the majority of players will be.

[Wintersdark]

Ngamok, on 06 April 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

This is why I was asking to test the Launch Module back in early March. But I suspect it's going to be harder than than you think to get 4 man + 3 solos onto the same side.

it'll be easier than it is to get them on the same side now.

[Adiuvo]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

The expanded ElkO brackets make it worse, not better.

Every exposed matchmaking parameter is one that can be gamed. As the players involved are almost certainly all going to be in the same Emo bracket (and an outlier can be pushed into the 4 man group to be included regardless) the "premade" syncing group can give the matchmaker _exactly_ what its looking for on a team.

This doesn't guarantee a successful sync, but it makes one far more likely than at present.

With that said, I still think we should have the solo queue with a max of 3 man groups, and a completely unrestricted queue. Yes, it'll be exploitable as Mr. Roadbeer has said, however with a way for all 7 (or however many of them) to play together in every game there will be far fewer attempts to game the solo/small group queue.

You're underestimating the amount of people in the middle bracket.

[Roland]

One of the biggest problems with how PGI has implemented Elo is the fact that new players get put in roughly around the middle, when really they should be put much closer to the bottom, if for no other reason than the fact that having a bunch of unoptmized mechs is such a liability.