795 replies to this topic

[Daekar]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Or, from another perspective, if the game developers would stop pandering to the perpetually anti-social, we wouldn't need to exploit a system just so we're able to play with our friends.

A feature, I might add, existed and was working just fine, before the perpetually anti-social QQed that "teamwork was OP and MUST be nerfed"

The fact that you don't like the rules set by the devs gives you no right to break them. You are not entitled to play how you want, you are allowed to play as the devs defermine. Cheating is cheating, and you are wrong to deliberately manipulate the system in order to gain an advantage, friends or no friends. Any functional system of morality places sanctions against actions like yours.

As was said up above, it's not about being able to play on a team - launch module will give you that and more. This is about winning by establishing unfair circumstances.

And no, it wasn't working. It sucked. I have dropped solo and dropped in 8 and then 4 man groups - my K/D was amazing while grouped. It would have been miserable to be on the other team.

[111DOA111]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

No, because most of the organized units would remain on their TS servers and disable universal VoIP anyway because
1. Nobody wants to hear "Angry German Kid"
2. Nobody wants to hear (whatever the current culturally relevant reference would be to hearing GWAR come out of their speakers)
4. See 1.
3. "Hey guise, my cats breath smells like cat food.

huh...I would think SOME communication would be better then none...and of course a mute/ignore function would be needed..but it certainly would not hurt..not to many "AAA" PC game titles out there today that DON"T implement it. (AND NOT SOME BLASTED THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE CRAP..but built within game) and yeah I'd still be on my ts too..but it does offer all those things I stated and more...also the ones you stated...hence the mute/ignore button...better to lose one maybe two a match due to those reasons then to have 4 man team and 8 pugs that you have to type too each other...or worse yet no communication.....heck.. between MUCH BIGGER MAPS..(with a lot less detail plz ) and VOIP...you would get role warfare in there. eh..and a HELL of a lot more strategy and tactics would start to emerge.

[Craig Steele]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

But, if the majority of players were in groups, who cares about the solo player? Especially in a "Team based" thinking mans shooter

Sound familiar?

Sure does, but as several people (including you from memory) have pointed out to me I wasn't around then so my opinion on that is irrelevant.

[Craig Steele]

Daekar, on 11 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

The fact that you don't like the rules set by the devs gives you no right to break them. You are not entitled to play how you want, you are allowed to play as the devs defermine. Cheating is cheating, and you are wrong to deliberately manipulate the system in order to gain an advantage, friends or no friends. Any functional system of morality places sanctions against actions like yours.

As was said up above, it's not about being able to play on a team - launch module will give you that and more. This is about winning by establishing unfair circumstances.

And no, it wasn't working. It sucked. I have dropped solo and dropped in 8 and then 4 man groups - my K/D was amazing while grouped. It would have been miserable to be on the other team.

Well to be fair, synch dropping is not against the "rules" (afaik)

Given PGI have said they are bringing in this structure to bring some balance into the game play you might question the integrity of anyone gaming the system.

Given there is no CW and the only in game rewards are KDR, Achievements and C-Bills you might question the motivation of anyone gaming the system.

But I don't think you can question the legality of anyone gaming the system in this manner.

I suspect most people have quite genuine reasons but what they apparently dismiss (as Sandpit has highlighted in one of his posts) is that by forcing their advantage they disadvantage another person.

Is that sustainable? IDK. Someone also highlighted that given "team players" are such a small % as PGI have stated, the problem should be small? That's correct to a degree. I guess that's like saying if only 30 people are murdered every year in a city of 1.0m we should all be happy, unless of course you're one of the 30's family members.

All I see is that gaming the system is not the sustainable answer to the problem. It creates more problems than it solves. I suspect what will happen is PGI will actually tighten the mechanics harder, but who knows?

[Daekar]

Group players need to understand that without solo players they have no game to play. Period. It is a business reality that gameplay must be designed around PUG play first and team play second. Put on your big-girl panties and deal with it.

Team play is important, but it will not keep the lights on if the game sucks for solo drops. You should be scrambling to find ways to make pugdropping more fun rather than trying to find ways to make pugs miserable for your own enjoyment.

You act like it's such a downer to only play on teams of four... that's BS and you know it. Teams of four are three times as fun as pugging. Enjoy your teams of four and recruit pugs so you'll have more friends.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Just to note with the new launch module, each side will only have 1 group. So no more syncs im guessing.

[Sandpit]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Pre made teams of 5 - 11 want to play the game with all the advantages of teamwork against an opposition that does not have the same advantages and get rewarded for it.
.

uhm

ok, this is the problem with some in the community.

Really?
Think about what you just said there. The advantages of teamwork against those that don't have the same advantage?
I hate to break it to you, or anyone else that truly believes this, but I can easily drop with my buddies without voip in a random match and do just as well as with it. That's because teamwork is not in any way reliant upon VOIP.

You basically just said "teamwork is op" in a team based game...

Lets apply that to another example

Football
Is it unfair that the offense can go no huddle and not give the defense proper time to plan, sub, and scheme against their play calling?


Seriously, this is ridiculous thinking and I still can't understand why ANYone would come to a game that is in every way possible touted as a team based game that relies HEAVILY upon teamwork to be successful and then cry foul because the other team actually uses teamwork while they don't....

[Artgathan]

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 April 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Just to note with the new launch module, each side will only have 1 group. So no more syncs im guessing.

The point was that you'll be able to easily sync solos with that one group - not that 2 groups would be able to sync.

[Sandpit]

Daekar, on 11 April 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

The fact that you don't like the rules set by the devs gives you no right to break them.

[citation needed]
show me where we're talking about breaking the rules?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Artgathan, on 11 April 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

The point was that you'll be able to easily sync solos with that one group - not that 2 groups would be able to sync.

i see what you mean.

[Sandpit]

Daekar, on 11 April 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Group players need to understand that without solo players they have no game to play. Period.

And solo players need to understand that without the monetary support of those groups THEY have no game to play. Period.

See how that works?

I don't see anywhere where myself or Road has said solo players should go away. The ONLY thing we've said is that we want to play with our buddies in CW. That's it. Several people ahve attempted to turn that into evil roflstomping, hating pugs, etc.

whatever, that's not what we want nor is it what we're asking for. WE aren't the ones suggesting it's ok to eliminate the game play of a certain group. YOU are.

Daekar, on 11 April 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

You act like it's such a downer to only play on teams of four... that's BS and you know it. Teams of four are three times as fun as pugging. Enjoy your teams of four and recruit pugs so you'll have more friends.

That's YOUR opinion. We disagree

BLOOD WOLF, on 11 April 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Just to note with the new launch module, each side will only have 1 group. So no more syncs im guessing.

one premade but you can sync your solo drops. We already do it in Marik for Monday Madness events. I don't see it as exploiting anythign when all I do is hit the launch button at the same time as other people.

As a matter of fact, I'd call THAT teamwork

[111DOA111]

Sandpit, on 11 April 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

I hate to break it to you, or anyone else that truly believes this, but I can easily drop with my buddies without voip in a random match and do just as well as with it. That's because teamwork is not in any way reliant upon VOIP.

sry dude you said "my buddies" and referring to dropping in random match in "MWO"
A: "my buddies" means your using teamwork as you have grown accustom to playing with "said buddies" ..know play style, tactics,skill lvl ..ect....
B: its MWO ...aka small repetitive maps, and tactics...(only so much you CAN do)

now find 3 random people...say hi...group up...have no pre-planned or determined tactics/strategies...and see if...
1: YOU do good...
2. THEY (the randoms you dropped with) do good....
3. how does the OTHERS (all the rest on your team) fair....
4. did YOUR SIDE win.....
5. did YOU, THEY, and OTHERS have fun...

[Craig Steele]

Sandpit, on 11 April 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

uhm

ok, this is the problem with some in the community.

Really?
Think about what you just said there. The advantages of teamwork against those that don't have the same advantage?
I hate to break it to you, or anyone else that truly believes this, but I can easily drop with my buddies without voip in a random match and do just as well as with it. That's because teamwork is not in any way reliant upon VOIP.

You basically just said "teamwork is op" in a team based game...

Lets apply that to another example

Football
Is it unfair that the offense can go no huddle and not give the defense proper time to plan, sub, and scheme against their play calling?


Seriously, this is ridiculous thinking and I still can't understand why ANYone would come to a game that is in every way possible touted as a team based game that relies HEAVILY upon teamwork to be successful and then cry foul because the other team actually uses teamwork while they don't....

No, I didn't say teamwork is OP in a team based game.

We all know teamwork has advantages.

We all know those advantages are a force multiplier. Just a simple example is focus fire. Lance leader nominates a target, everyone hits it. PUG's don't have that advantage.

If you want to use the football analogy lets use it properly. Put your team of players that have practiced together (team A) against an equally skilled team of players that have never met each other (team .

I guarantee you that the first pass team B makes is less likely to hit its target and it's 2nd and 10.

Now take that analogy across to MW:O and that missed down is a casuality, and the snowball starts rolling (cause there is no 2nd down for that guy who just died) and team A romps home.

If you're calling me out as "ridiculous thinking" I can say exactly the same. It befuddles me why some players want to play in an environment where they have advantages. Doesn't anyone enjoy a challenge anymore? Or is it only the PUG's who should have the mountain to climb?

You can argue it's supposed to be a team based game and it is, just not the teams of 5 - 11 that you want it to be. So why play it? Rightly or wrongly PGI have made this accommodation to teams of 4 or less. That is the game.

Your argument is basically join a team if you want to play, this game is not for you if you can't be bothered joining a team. Because 5 - 11 is what it should be and what we are going to force it to be with or without your support.

What I can't understand is why anyone would show up for a social game of football with 15 players when the other team has only 11 and then say HEY, you could have brought more players if you wanted, its just for fun. Wise heads might prevail and the game becomes 13 vs 13 but in this instance, the 15 side is screaming "noooooooooooooo, we want to play with our freinds".

[Roadbeer]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

What I can't understand is why anyone would show up for a social game of football with 15 players when the other team has only 11 and then say HEY, you could have brought more players if you wanted, its just for fun. Wise heads might prevail and the game becomes 13 vs 13 but in this instance, the 15 side is screaming "noooooooooooooo, we want to play with our freinds".

That is singularly the most ridiculous example ever. It's not like anyone is saying "Hey, 12 isn't enough, we want 15" we're saying if you have a cap of 12, why can't I bring 7? or 8?

4 is an arbitrary number in the rule set that allows for UP TO 12

[Daekar]

Sandpit, on 11 April 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

[citation needed]
show me where we're talking about breaking the rules?

The fact that PGI intentionally reduced max pug-queue group size to 4 from a previously larger number to prevent VOIP-equipped teams from stomping pugs is an implied condemnation of teams larger than 4 in the pug queue. Sync-dropping to achieve more than 4 people teamed in a drop is deliberately manipulating game systems to achieve a personal gameplay advantage - a textbook definition of cheating. You can give all the reasons you want about friends, but that doesn't change anything, that's only your justification for bypassing game systems.

Sandpit, on 11 April 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

And solo players need to understand that without the monetary support of those groups THEY have no game to play. Period.

See how that works?

I don't see anywhere where myself or Road has said solo players should go away. The ONLY thing we've said is that we want to play with our buddies in CW. That's it. Several people ahve attempted to turn that into evil roflstomping, hating pugs, etc.

whatever, that's not what we want nor is it what we're asking for. WE aren't the ones suggesting it's ok to eliminate the game play of a certain group. YOU are.


That's YOUR opinion. We disagree


one premade but you can sync your solo drops. We already do it in Marik for Monday Madness events. I don't see it as exploiting anythign when all I do is hit the launch button at the same time as other people.

As a matter of fact, I'd call THAT teamwork

84% percent of players drop solo. They don't need you.

I didn't say I wanted to eliminate team play that doesn't violate the intentions of the systems created by the devs. Team play is healthy and fun. Intentionally hurting someone else's gameplay to do so is not fun and not OK, there is a difference. You don't hate pugs, you just don't care about them enough to consider the impact of your selfish behavior. Sort of like my putting up a shooting range near a cattle field and not creating a berm to catch the bullets after they pass through the targets... what do I care if some cows die, I'm having my fun. Don't try to tell me not to, it's my play style. I don't hate cows, I just want to shoot my targets.

See?

[Craig Steele]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

That is singularly the most ridiculous example ever. It's not like anyone is saying "Hey, 12 isn't enough, we want 15" we're saying if you have a cap of 12, why can't I bring 7? or 8?

4 is an arbitrary number in the rule set that allows for UP TO 12

You say arbitrary, PGI say required for game balance. (PS, the anology was the football one, 11 on a field?)

You say screw that, I'm bringing more anyway

PGI says ............... (we shall have to see what they say)

This is not rocket science. PGI have clearly said that the Launch module is (in part) to address the gameplay experience. Your thread is how can work the system to have a different experieince than what is intended by the Devs.

That's what you want.

Even though you can play the game and have the game experience you want under Premium matches, thats not enough. You want the in game rewards and you're going to get them by gaming the system and screwing over the PUG's experieince that PGI are trying to enhance.

That's your thread.

Screw PGI if they won't give us what we want, screw the opposition, we're having fun and getting our C-Bills. It's not our fault PGI let us game the system, join a team or carry harder.

[Roadbeer]

Craig Steele, on 11 April 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Screw PGI if they won't give us what we want, screw the opposition, we're having fun and getting our C-Bills. It's not our fault PGI let us game the system, join a team or carry harder.

Exactly, don't like it, go back to Call of Battlehalo

This is the "Thinking" mans shooter, not Derpherd to the PUGZAPPER

[Sandpit]

111DOA111, on 11 April 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

sry dude you said "my buddies" and referring to dropping in random match in "MWO"
A: "my buddies" means your using teamwork as you have grown accustom to playing with "said buddies" ..know play style, tactics,skill lvl ..ect....
B: its MWO ...aka small repetitive maps, and tactics...(only so much you CAN do)

now find 3 random people...say hi...group up...have no pre-planned or determined tactics/strategies...and see if...
1: YOU do good...
2. THEY (the randoms you dropped with) do good....
3. how does the OTHERS (all the rest on your team) fair....
4. did YOUR SIDE win.....
5. did YOU, THEY, and OTHERS have fun...

So now if you play with people on a regular basis and use teamwork THAT'S "op"? come on guys, you're really starting to stretch here. I took voip out of the equation so now it's "You play with them so you use teamwork without VOIP so now playing with anyone on a regular basis so you get a little synergy together" is "op"?

[Daekar]

Quote

4 is an arbitrary number in the rule set that allows for UP TO 12

And this is the problem, you think you know better than PGI and therefore feel like their rules need not apply. Make no mistake, 4 is not an arbitrary number in a rule set that allows up to 12, 4 is the maximum allowed by the ruleset. You are not a special snowflake and PGI is not just a bunch of downers who are around to impose silly unjustified and unauthoritative limitations on you. As far as you are concerned, if PGI says 4 is the limit, then the limit is 4 and you shouldn't even try to bypass that.

This is not your game, it is PGI's game. They make the rules, and unless you're just a worthless cheater you follow the rules - and the rules are, group sizes of four.

[Craig Steele]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Exactly, don't like it, go back to Call of Battlehalo

This is the "Thinking" mans shooter, not Derpherd to the PUGZAPPER

Well I hope you're right.

Cause if you're wrong it's PGI saying "Screw you Roadbeer, this is our game. The 'thinking man shooter' is our marketing and we know what game we want to bring to life, and right now that includes PUG's. We are going to make sure it happens and it's you who can go back to Derpville 5 - 11 game"

I actually think theres a commercially realistic middle ground somewhere but the games not there yet.

I suppose plenty of parents have caved in to tantrums in the shopping isle before, it's not impossible you can't get what you want.