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Gg Devs For Making Camp Warrior Online

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#41 Trauglodyte

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:11 AM

Going to change my tune on my post. It was overly douchey and unnecessary.

I've died to LRMs a few times since the first initial LRM buff patch. In every instance, I was either completely outplayed (i.e. the opposing had great spotters and enough boats to cover each other) or I made a tactical error at the end of the game and died under what would have been normal circumstances. The thing is, when the match numbers are even or near even, dying to LRMs means that your team either didn't find the spotter and, therefor, you got outplayed or you made a drastic mistake and got out played. If your team is getting crushed or are doing the crusing and are down to the final couple of players, nothing you'd do would make any difference which means the end remains the same. The point is, regardless of the element to which you died, you'd have died just as quickly against a direct fire weapons team. The only difference is that one requires the assistance of another player.

I will say, though, that the one thing that upsets me about the LRM buff, and post change, has NOTHING to do with LRMs. It is 100% map related. The original four maps are either way too small (Forrest Colony, River City, and Frozen City) which means that you're got a lot of real estate not being utilized because it is pure suicide (water in all cases) or simply not feazable (Jenner alley or frozen water's edge) or the maps are simply designed poorly to where you've got real estate that can't be used because it is suicide (water in Crimson Straight, anything south of the Southern Road in Alpine Valley, water on the basic maps, etc). PGI created maps with centralized areas with the hopes that people would gravitate there on massive maps to prevent mindless wandering. But, what it has ended up doing is removing at least 1/3rd, or more, of the land because there is no purpose to going there or it is instant death going there. On maps like River City Assault, there is no point in going north but you can't go out to the edge of the water or the opposing side's turrets kick in. The ripple effect of Camp Warrior Online, as the OP suggested, is more because maps either have a limited amount of cover or because other spots where fighting can take place are simply impossible to use because it is instant death going there and/or there isn't any benefit gained by getting there IF you can actually make it.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 07 April 2014 - 11:01 AM.


#42 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:15 AM

View Postmeteorol, on 07 April 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Totally OT, and not even related to the rest of the thread (or any particular post in here), just because there was some short mentioning of elo:

What is it with this "high elo, low elo, respected units" assertions thrown around in every single balance thread?
Not a single person knows his own elo. Every statement regarding "if you play in high elo, players will do X" is a pure assumption, because the poster doesn't know his elo and "respected units" comes down to a personal estimation aswell.
The huge range from which the MM seems to pick players if he can't find someone in times doesn't make this easier.

When starting my Jagers (first heavy to ever use since CB, meaning 100% base elo), i frequently saw half of the team using meta builds with great success, 4 DS/733C jumpsniping premades, lack of lrms and everything else which is normally used to describe the "high elo"
IMO, we could use some reticence when it comes to making elo claims.

Judging from the number of posters who allegedly play in "high elo", the base elo must be pretty much empty.


Keep in mind that since they've also broadened the 'buckets' it's often practically nonexistent, and you get good and bad players mingling nearly every game... :P

No, nobody knows their ELO, but when you see someone playing like a brand new player, or in a build that doesn't make sense and they do poorly, you tend to assume "low ELO." That guy rockin' a meta-build and carrying his team? You tend to assume high.

Play enough, and you see a lot of the same names appearing...and when you die and you see good and bad players and their tendencies, you end up labelling them as high and low ELO.

So, reading these posts, Meteorol, just change "Low ELO" to "people I have seen playing like idiots" and change "High ELO" and "Top Tier" to "people I've seen consistently perform well in games that I see often enough to remember their names."

Numbers not necessary.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 07 April 2014 - 10:15 AM.


#43 Latorque

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:54 AM

OP, let me sum up 90% of answers to your thread:

"Sun Tzu, know your enemy and know yourself;and you don't have to fear a hundred pompous talebearers; LRM are a fools weapon, AC5 / PPC baaaad and dangerous as well as OP, LRM using is an artform, my 12 - man dropping group extremely 1337, special weapons and tactics adapting to whatever dumb enemy might throw at me / us, so l2p noob, no PUGging, my stats are breathtaking still even while piloting a completely inferior mech; too bad you can't see them; although they might make you shoot yourself in desperation."

That should do it :P . I wouldn't hold my breath for changes to the better; LRMs cater to a very broad player demographic.

#44 DeadlyNerd

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:00 AM

Yes, walking across the water on fores colony is bad for your health.

#45 Trauglodyte

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:04 AM

View PostGhost Badger, on 07 April 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:


Keep in mind that since they've also broadened the 'buckets' it's often practically nonexistent, and you get good and bad players mingling nearly every game... :(

No, nobody knows their ELO, but when you see someone playing like a brand new player, or in a build that doesn't make sense and they do poorly, you tend to assume "low ELO." That guy rockin' a meta-build and carrying his team? You tend to assume high.

Play enough, and you see a lot of the same names appearing...and when you die and you see good and bad players and their tendencies, you end up labelling them as high and low ELO.

So, reading these posts, Meteorol, just change "Low ELO" to "people I have seen playing like idiots" and change "High ELO" and "Top Tier" to "people I've seen consistently perform well in games that I see often enough to remember their names."

Numbers not necessary.


The funny thing is they mixed up the ELOs in the last patch about a month ago so the matches are a bit different. But, once the launch module comes out, everyone is going to be in bucket 3rds which means ELO combinations will be limited. The match maker will probably take longer and you're still not guaranteed to get good matches without Champ drivers/newbies. The side effect, though, is that hopefully we'll have a better understanding of where we actually belong. I play with the Lords, SWK, Jaguars, etc as often as I play with day 1s/bottom feeding bads. As I group with my CI co-horts, I really have no idea where I am except for hoping that I'm in the middle area where I think that I belong. Of course, if I keep leveling up new mechs with builds that I'm not exactly happy with, I might end up on the ass end of the scale. :(

View PostLatorque, on 07 April 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

OP, let me sum up 90% of answers to your thread:

"Sun Tzu, know your enemy and know yourself;and you don't have to fear a hundred pompous talebearers; LRM are a fools weapon, AC5 / PPC baaaad and dangerous as well as OP, LRM using is an artform, my 12 - man dropping group extremely 1337, special weapons and tactics adapting to whatever dumb enemy might throw at me / us, so l2p noob, no PUGging, my stats are breathtaking still even while piloting a completely inferior mech; too bad you can't see them; although they might make you shoot yourself in desperation."

That should do it :P . I wouldn't hold my breath for changes to the better; LRMs cater to a very broad player demographic.


Actually, I'd sum it up like this:

LRMs are good against poorly coordinated players and fantastic with teammates that know how to properly utilize them to their max but are mediocre to bad, even under those circumstances, against opponents with half a brain.

Direct fire weaponry will always be the best because it offers the best punch and damage to heat efficiency for the best defensive options.

PUGs make all weapons, even Flamers, look great.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 07 April 2014 - 11:07 AM.


#46 Latorque

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:17 AM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 07 April 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Actually, I'd sum it up like this:

LRMs are good against poorly coordinated players and fantastic with teammates that know how to properly utilize them to their max but are mediocre to bad, even under those circumstances, against opponents with half a brain.

Direct fire weaponry will always be the best because it offers the best punch and damage to heat efficiency for the best defensive options.

PUGs make all weapons, even Flamers, look great.


:( Thanks. As i said OP; if there's a hint you're complaining about LRMs, you're rather automatically labeled a brain-dead low-bracket ELO weasel; and god forbid it get's known you're PUGging. Here's a tip: find pleasure in playing LRM-loaded mechs; or ECM-mounting mechs. I do not; but well... :P

#47 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:25 AM

I notice a very stark difference in play styles, which tend to let me know what level of players I'm up against.

When 10 of 12 enemy mechs in a match are in some form of popular meta (AC's/PPC's), with everyone and their brother sporting dual Strikes and no one ever leaves cover for more than the time it takes to clear their weapons, fire and retreat. I know exactly what ELO pool I'm dropping with.

Whereas when I drop, and see a lot of (C)'s, a lot of mixed load outs, with people spending inordinant amounts of time out in the open trying to line up a shot...I once against know what ELO pool I'm dropping in.

I'm not saying it's the end-all-be-all. But you can definitely tell if you are paying attention.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 07 April 2014 - 11:34 AM.


#48 Dracol

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:50 AM

I got 2 c-bills to throw into the ring....

Pre-LRM buff, they weren't on the minds of many players.

Post-LRM buff, players have to be mindful of potential LRM swarms. Nowadays, less games turn into "Pain Trains". Instead we find more teams utilizing cover, creating firing lines, and cautiously jockeying for position. For players accustomed to the "Follow the Point Man until Contact" strategy, the new slower paced game may be agonizingly slow.

I've seen LRM heavy teams tear up enemies. I've seen them torn apart by direct fire teams. I've seen the sky in River City Night covered in LRMs from both teams. I've seen my AMS never fire a shot.

In my experience, the better an enemy team gets, the less likely a LRM dominate team will be successful. In any ranking of play, the key to how effective LRMs are is based on the ability of the scouts. Without a spotter to guide LRMs in, they become a second rate Direct Fire weapon.

#49 Ultimax

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:50 AM

View PostDeadlyNerd, on 07 April 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Yes, walking across the water on fores colony is bad for your health.


I had a match this weekend where a lance of 3 DDCs charged right out into the open water on Forest Colony and repeatedly demanded in chat that the team "support the Atlases".

Their deaths were swift and hysterical.

#50 Xtrekker

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:52 AM

In my experience...

Where I would agree are the games where each side plays conservatively in assault. One side takes position near their base, with lights out front tagging targets. Once they get one or two kills, they pull even farther back to their base and wait for you to suicide across open ground. The "fast medium LRM killer" can't get close enough to do anything -- which comes back to map design. What is the incentive for the turtling team to come out of hiding? The match timer is short enough to just hit the troll limit without being an overly negative experience to just wait it out, and just short enough to force one side to sometimes make the suicide run (and pugging this is damn near impossible to do effectively). I see the same tactic applied to organized teams as well as pugs that can type. I can't be the only one seeing that as it happens quite often. The clock never used to be an issue, but now it feels like you are very aware of it most games.

I'll amend this say it was definitely the case at 175. Jury is still out on 160 as I simply haven't played that much lately. I do think it seems less of an issue at present, but I can certainly identify with the reason for the thread.

I'll also say that I like how the LRMs have encouraged more conservative play. I was one of those guys who actually liked the occasional hour-long MW4 competitive matches.

#51 Trauglodyte

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:55 AM

View PostDracol, on 07 April 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

I got 2 c-bills to throw into the ring....

Pre-LRM buff, they weren't on the minds of many players.

Post-LRM buff, players have to be mindful of potential LRM swarms. Nowadays, less games turn into "Pain Trains". Instead we find more teams utilizing cover, creating firing lines, and cautiously jockeying for position. For players accustomed to the "Follow the Point Man until Contact" strategy, the new slower paced game may be agonizingly slow.

I've seen LRM heavy teams tear up enemies. I've seen them torn apart by direct fire teams. I've seen the sky in River City Night covered in LRMs from both teams. I've seen my AMS never fire a shot.

In my experience, the better an enemy team gets, the less likely a LRM dominate team will be successful. In any ranking of play, the key to how effective LRMs are is based on the ability of the scouts. Without a spotter to guide LRMs in, they become a second rate Direct Fire weapon.


Being that we play together, you're right. The problem lies in the fact that most players just want to play and not think about things. Good groups wade slowly into combat so that they can scout out what the other team is using. Light on LRMs, movement is a lot more free. Heavy on LRMs, then pointed movement and lots of cover is 100% needed now.

Where people rage out is not being able to play without thinking. Thus, they get pissed when they're stuck in one area for any length of time and rage beyond end when they die to a weapon that can be negated by cover, ECM, AMS, etc. It is the same reason why the US population got all pissy when the economy crashed cause the banks were giving loans to people that shouldn't have qualified for them or for buying houses that were more expensive than they could afford. Well, why the F did you buy a $500k house in an upscale neighborhood when you should living in a double wide trailer in the boon docks? "Obama (ie LRMs) is at fault, not me."

#52 Pygar

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:58 AM

This forum just needs to have people fill out a form when they show up:

Hi, My name is _______________

Today I was playing MechWarrior Online trying to blow up digital bad guys, and I suddenly got killed by _______________. Clearly, since human error is beneath me, some bug or imbalance in your game system must have occurred. Please "nerf" ______________ immediately so I do not have to experience any more of this "losing" phenomenon I am currently enduring.

K.thx.bai.

_________________.


Sound about right?

Edited by Pygar, 07 April 2014 - 12:00 PM.


#53 Mystere

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:58 AM

Posted Image

#54 Xtrekker

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:05 PM

View PostPygar, on 07 April 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

This forum just needs to have people fill out a form when they show up:

Hi, My name is _______________

Today I was playing MechWarrior Online trying to blow up digital bad guys, and I suddenly got killed by _______________. Clearly, since human error is beneath me, some bug or imbalance in your game system must have occurred. Please "nerf" ______________ immediately so I do not have to experience any more of this "losing" phenomenon I am currently enduring.

K.thx.bai.

_________________.


Sound about right?


Sorry, Google doesn't have an option to translate douche into English.

#55 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:08 PM

View PostXtrekker, on 07 April 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:


Sorry, Google doesn't have an option to translate douche into English.


hah....is it sad I wish it did?

#56 cSand

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:10 PM

I just want to clarify here

is this game "LRMwarrior online"

or is it "campingwarrior online"

or is it "ACWarrior online"

or is it "ECMWarrior online"

or is it "PPCWarrior Online"

or is it "PoptartWarrior ONline?"

do missiles suck? or are they OP?

Is the current meta impossible to beat? Or no problem?

Cause there's crazy threads saying just about all these things and more



I got a new one

"HTFU Online"

#57 Trauglodyte

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:14 PM

View PostcSand, on 07 April 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

I just want to clarify here

is this game "LRMwarrior online"

or is it "campingwarrior online"

or is it "ACWarrior online"

or is it "ECMWarrior online"

or is it "PPCWarrior Online"

or is it "PoptartWarrior ONline?"

do missiles suck? or are they OP?

Is the current meta impossible to beat? Or no problem?

Cause there's crazy threads saying just about all these things and more



I got a new one

"HTFU Online"


I can't answer those questions. I can answer what it currently is not:

Flamer Online
Pulse Laser Online
SRM Online
TAG Online
NARC Online
Machine Gun Online
Small Laser Online

It is, rather, "What touched me in that naughty spot" Online. For me, though, it is more "my team dropped with drooling bads that shouldn't reproduce" (again) Online :P

#58 Pygar

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:17 PM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 07 April 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:


I can't answer those questions. I can answer what it currently is not:

Flamer Online
Pulse Laser Online
SRM Online
TAG Online
NARC Online
Machine Gun Online
Small Laser Online

It is, rather, "What touched me in that naughty spot" Online. For me, though, it is more "my team dropped with drooling bads that shouldn't reproduce" (again) Online :P


About half of the weapons on your list are better than most people think they are.... Pulse lasers, TAG/NARC, and Machine Guns are all good weapons.

#59 Trauglodyte

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:20 PM

View PostPygar, on 07 April 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:


About half of the weapons on your list are better than most people think they are.... Pulse lasers, TAG/NARC, and Machine Guns are all good weapons that aren't OP and so broken to drive people to scream, cry, and whine on the forums.


FTFY

#60 cSand

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:21 PM

View PostPygar, on 07 April 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:


About half of the weapons on your list are better than most people think they are.... Pulse lasers, TAG/NARC, and Machine Guns are all good weapons.


The main problem with many weapons is that you have to do more than walk in a straight line holding 2 mouse buttons




Posted Image

Edited by cSand, 07 April 2014 - 12:26 PM.






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