48 replies to this topic

[JohnnyWayne]

Mystere, on 09 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

At 20 damage, a direct hit to your undamaged cockpit -- no matter how small the chance may be -- will not kill you. That is not artillery as far as I am concerned.

You are riding a ******* killing machine, tons of steel and death, you don't die by a single hit where ever it would land on you. Otherwise battlemechs would make no sense, and a tank could take more damage what is opposing to lore. Don't care about TT here right now. I also want to add that all the examples work also the other way around. ALl poptarts and who ever else have arti with them. Because its too strong, has no downside and is not even a BIT situational. You can always use it even on a signle mech.

Oneshotting people is no good game design, even less if its random. Just like Crowd Control, it makes no fun. Stated aim of the devs was, to increase the time to kill. This is one of the first steps. Make it an optional feature with tactical backround not a oneshot must have for pseudo comptetetives.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 09 April 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[Mystere]

JohnnyWayne, on 09 April 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

You are riding a ******* killing machine, tons of steel and death, you don't die by a single hit where ever it would land on you. Otherwise battlemechs would make no sense, and a tank could take more damage what is opposing to lore. Don't care about TT here right now. I also want to add that all the examples work also the other way around. ALl poptarts and who ever else have arti with them. Because its too strong, has no downside and is not even a BIT situational. You can always use it even on a signle mech.

That's funny. A modern-day battle tank is also a "******* killing machine, tons of steel and death". And yet they too are vulnerable to being destroyed by a direct hit of artillery or air strike.

JohnnyWayne, on 09 April 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:

Oneshotting people is no good game design, even less if its random. Just like Crowd Control, it makes no fun. Stated aim of the devs was, to increase the time to kill. This is one of the first steps. Make it an optional feature with tactical backround not a oneshot must have for pseudo comptetetives.

You talk as if artillery one-shots fresh mechs 100%, 75%, or even 50% of the time. Do you even have an idea of what that probability is?

Also, there is an indicator -- big, bright, red smoke -- that tells you a strike is incoming. If it so happens that I do not see the smoke, or I do not see it in time, then I blame that on my not having the situational awareness to detect said indicator. In other words, I blame my failure on myself and not the weapon/module, PGI, other players, or whatever "cheese" other people would blame it on.

And speaking of crowd control, frankly, I too have no problem with that. So knockdowns, blinding, and (gasp! ) legging, I am fine with all of those. But then again that's just who I am.

Finally, if you do not want to be killed by artillery or air strikes, then demand that PGI call them something else. Call them "ANFD - A Nice Fireworks Display", because that seems to be what some people want them to be.

Just don't call them artillery or air strikes.

[Dan Nashe]

Realism argument:
We shouldn't have battlemechs in MWO. They're simply not a realistic weapon platform compared to even any modern technology.

End result of all realism arguments. So, I don't think that's relevant in any way shape or form ;-).

My complaints:
(1) Cost: the only reason you don't see everyone in PuG matches taking them, is the expense. If you use them in every game, after 1,000 matches, you will have spent upwards of 80,000,000. So your mechs are better than mine because you can spare 80 million c-bills. While not pay-to-win, people with premium time have a dramatically easier time using them. (My cumulative earnings per match, after 2,000 matches, is 90,000 - before and after stat reset. That would be 10,000 a game earned. With premium time, that would be 145,000, or 65k earned a match. One is sustainable, one is not. IT's not pay to win, but it's close enough to ruin the game.

In Comparison, a Top-of-the line, fully tricked out, competitive DDC only costs 15 million. 45 million if you have to buy 3 Atlai to master and you count that cost. Artillery strikes are more powerful than any weapon in the game and more expensive than what PGI calls the top tier mech. [See PGI's thread on MC, they view Atlas as top tier, thus the high cost for MC].

(2) Artillery are just used as a direct fire weapon because they are effective enough at that to be worth it.
In a recent 12 man I fired an artillery strike from over 2 kilometers away at a single enemy mech. I did 64 damage. I only saw one enemy, I may only have hit one enemy. I was not using it for area control, or to keep them from bunching up. I simply used it as a direct fire weapon to deal 64 damage. And it was worth it. Your average jenner pilot doesn't do 64 damage with a single medium laser in a game. (<requires 384 damage in a game for that ML to equal the arty strike I launched).

Solutions:
(1) Make artillery affordable for everyone. Either make it cost like 10-20,000 cbills each, or better yet, simply make it a 6 million cbill consumable. THIS way the level of use will reflect how powerful it is. If you see every single mech in every game taking 2, but not bothering with any other module, there is a clear metric to evaluate game balance.

(2) Double the number of shells, doubling the duration of an artillery strike. Reduce the damage of each shell by half.
This will keep it useful as an area denial weapon (drop it on a cap, people will still have to leave or take the full damage), but it will reduce its utility as a direct fire weapon usable only by those with spare income.

[Mystere]

DanNashe, on 09 April 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

Realism argument:
We shouldn't have battlemechs in MWO. They're simply not a realistic weapon platform compared to even any modern technology.

Then let's just close shop and call it a day.

DanNashe, on 09 April 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

(2) Double the number of shells, doubling the duration of an artillery strike. Reduce the damage of each shell by half.
This will keep it useful as an area denial weapon (drop it on a cap, people will still have to leave or take the full damage), but it will reduce its utility as a direct fire weapon usable only by those with spare income.

Once again, if doesn't have a chance of killing you outright, then it is not artillery. Go call it something else, like "ANFDTHAL - A Nice Fireworks Display That Hurts A Little".

And as a point of reference, I have used artillery and air strikes exactly 1587 times. But, I did not have a boatload c-bills while doing that. I actually watched my earnings and spent against those.

Edited by Mystere, 09 April 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[El Bandito]

Limit the arty strike to 3 per team. Done.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 April 2014 - 10:49 PM.

[Maggiman]

If you want realism, dont play a game
I think arty is in a good position. I see it every game once or twice per team. That means, from my point of view ofc, it's got a steady presence, but most people don't think it's actually needed. (I hate it though. No one's getting my c-bills for one time use!)

[El Bandito]

Maggiman, on 09 April 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

If you want realism, dont play a game I think arty is in a good position. I see it every game once or twice per team. That means, from my point of view ofc, it's got a steady presence, but most people don't think it's actually needed. (I hate it though. No one's getting my c-bills for one time use!)

Once winning has meaning other than C-Bill/XP grind, you are gonna see 12 Arty Strikes per team, every match.
It already happens whenever there is a tournament, and it is not pretty. Better nerf/limit Arty Strike right now.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 April 2014 - 12:58 AM.

[Maggiman]

I could get behind a Limitation. As long as pugs aren't affected (Due to my opinion on arty being balanced there). But what kind? Slots? "Oh nice, some ******* wasted our last strike on that empty ridge over there" Maybe different limits for Pugs and 12v12...oh my head starts spinning :/

[Joseph Mallan]

Maggiman, on 09 April 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

If you want realism, dont play a game
I think arty is in a good position. I see it every game once or twice per team. That means, from my point of view ofc, it's got a steady presence, but most people don't think it's actually needed. (I hate it though. No one's getting my c-bills for one time use!)

Depending on the game I want some realism. I wanna feel like I am in a warzone in a Giant Robot when I play a Mecha COMBAT Game. So I want my Arty to make WANT to hide till its over. Cause you know, Arty is powerful stuff.

El Bandito, on 09 April 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Once winning has meaning other than C-Bill/XP grind, you are gonna see 12 Arty Strikes per team, every match.
It already happens whenever there is a tournament, and it is not pretty. Better nerf/limit Arty Strike right now.

Unless I am involved... I don't buy Arty... I do have one strike and one UAV... I bought them both 2-3 months ago... I need to dust 'em maybe.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 April 2014 - 09:33 AM.