163 replies to this topic

[SmurfOff]

Sadly, it doesn't matter why they are using a VPN. The real issue is that after two years of this game, we are still at the same level of broken with things like hit detection and HSR.

I don't blame anyone for trying anything to fix something that PGI feels no sense of urgency to fix. Other than minor tweaks in artwork and stats, the basic engine has been the same since Closed Beta, and still has many of the long standing issues. So if the House of Lords causes PGI to address the technical debt that they have created in this game, then I say VPN's for everybody...

[Triordinant]

100mile, on 11 April 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

I've been in matches with people doing the Lag effect..and I've watched a Spider jump all over the place and kill 3 or 4 other mechs because he popped in behind them fired off his weapons and skipped around and did it again over and over...so don't tell me nobody is doing it...been the victim...of the pathetic attempt of some people to make themselves feel better....

I've seen that Spider. Total douchbag.

[Eglar]

Odins Fist, on 11 April 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but Ping Manipulation has been around for years..
Packet loss can lead to some really strange things..
BUT for manipulating your communication with the game server seems strange to me.. JMO

Please inform yourself about Networking before throwing in your content. You can simulate Packet Loss and your Latency without a VPN. Why use a vpn?

1. There is no conclusive evidence that a ping of 120 gives you better HSR performance. Can you prove them?

2. Let's ASSUME that 120 ping gave you a better performance, and people used a VPN to get to that "Ideal Ping". - So what? They use it for the same reason others use it to get a lower ping. In common-sense the "Ideal Ping" is 0. 120 Ping is also a totally valid state other players can archive by living in or moving to Europe for instance.

3. FYI: VPN-Networking is a feature included in any Vanilla Windows Build. It's not a "script either", it's a part of your network services. If you deem that a VPN needs to be a 3rd Party application, you might as well unplug your internet.
For reference:
VPN on Windows XP

4. I'll be really blunt here: There are people are just jumping onto the Bandwagon, because they hate the house of lords. If you don't feel that you are one of those people, there is no need to read further.

I've seen people accusing others of aimbotting, wallhacking, speedhacking but VPN? Seriously? LOL, just LOL. If you can't find an excuse to you being one of the bads/grunts/pugs you just have to hang around one of the best players stream to find an excuse for your inability to compete with good players?
Dude, L2P.

Edited by Eglar, 12 April 2014 - 08:15 AM.

[3rdworld]

Eglar, on 12 April 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Please inform yourself about Networking before throwing in your content. You can simulate Packet Loss and your Latency without a VPN. Why use a vpn?

1. There is no conclusive evidence that a ping of 120 gives you better HSR performance. Can you prove them?

I was in the camp that thought the 30-40ms difference probably wouldn't make much of an impact....but now I am not so sure.

In a pug vs Ryan, I hit him 4 times in the chest....no reg, shot his diaper, no reg, finally got a shot to register on his baby arm, but only about 5 vs the 35 I shot at him, all shots taken from within 300m with a completely clean LoS.

I'm not sure if it was just a terrible night for shots registering for me (PGI stated hit reg is about 80% which would make 5 no regs in a row about a .032% chance of happening), if something else was going on or if it was just the vpn, but I didn't have that issue with anyone else on his team. Nor have I ever experienced anything like that as far as 4-5 back to back direct torso hits that don't register (since the knockdown raven warping days).

I understand this isn't exactly "evidence" as I don't record pug matches.

I don't know much about networking, setting up my home wifi is the maximum of my experience, but I don't have that issue playing against EU players, and I have never seen anything like that before.

I am assuming that you mean what you say, and your vpning is simply to get a better connection for yourself, but in that instance, I can only say that he was using a VPN (his ping at the end was just above 100), and there was significant deterioration of hit reg against him. Not intending on starting an argument or flame war, just posting my observations. This will probably come across as an attack, but it isn't meant to be one. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you are actually vpning to help a poor connection, which I have no issues with. And the entire ordeal to paint you guys as cheaters, I think is a bit of a stretch. Like I said, just an observation from a pug match.

Edited by 3rdworld, 12 April 2014 - 09:06 AM.

[Jman5]

As someone who has a VPN service and has accidentally left it running from time to time, I just don't buy the hypothesis that giving yourself a higher ping is advantageous. Normally I run the game at about 30 ping, so increasing it 4 fold is noticeable in a bad way.

The only positive I have seen with regards to hit registration are lights with really unstable connections. Those are the guys you see stuttering through the game warping forward. Are they hard to hit? Sure, but just as they are hard to hit, they can't hit you worth a damn. We have a guy in our unit with a connection like that and while he's tough to kill, his point blank shots simply don't register half the time. What makes it even worse is that he's only hard to hit in a light. The moment he steps out of one his warping stops, but he his own weapon hit registration problems remain.

It's a double edged sword here, and frankly I would rather take a low, stable connection then some messed up and frustrating connection that hurts more than it helps.

Anecdotally, I have better games during Europe's prime time against 100+ ping players than I do during NA prime time where most people are below 100 ping. If 120 ping really was a sweet spot, I would probably be seeing the opposite.

[Odins Fist]

Marctraider, on 12 April 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but again you dont need a VPN at all to achieve thse nast tricks. lol

No SIR, i'm sorry to burst YOUR bubble Chief, NOWHERE did I say you NEEDED a VPN to achieve that.
Not one sentence, not one time, not ever. Back it up slick.

Eglar, on 12 April 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Please inform yourself about Networking before throwing in your content. You can simulate Packet Loss and your Latency without a VPN.

1. There is no conclusive evidence that a ping of 120 gives you better HSR performance. Can you prove them?


I've seen people accusing others of aimbotting, wallhacking, speedhacking but VPN? Seriously? LOL, just LOL. If you can't find an excuse to you being one of the bads/grunts/pugs you just have to hang around one of the best players stream to find an excuse for your inability to compete with good players?
Dude, L2P.

You failed to see other comments I guess so here you go.
More asking then statements, but reading comprehension is key.
I did raise the concern on whether or not it made a difference or not regarding HSR, but that it was more of wondering and not making accusations.
At no point did I accuse ANYONE of running hacks/cheats such as Aimbots, Wallhacks, or ANYTHING.
Cherry Pick statements for quoting someone less.

Odins Fist, on 11 April 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

When you have players that are 30 -70 Ping normally then the story maybe different.
I would have to look into what kind of HSR change happens within what ranges.

Mine is usually between 30 - 100 depending what hours i'm on, and the level of MWO's server traffic.
More often between 30 -70 ping.

Whether or not a 120 -130 ping confers any advantage at all is debatable. <---(there you go)

Odins Fist, on 11 April 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

I saw a comment: "my hit detection is showing a marked improvement"

I believe that is what people are worried about, if indeed that is the case.
Does it matter..?? It's not for us to decide, only discuss, PGI will have to make a ruling on that.

SO what Bandwagon are you assuming i'm on..?? LOL ok then, keep assuming.

As for your smarmy little L2PLAY comment, you can stuff it, I don't have any problem playing against good pilots, and I have NEVER said anything about that, slick.
So quick to want to dismiss a discussion instead of just discussing it huh.

Wispsy, on 12 April 2014 - 04:23 AM, said:

No he unistalled MWO because things were much worse for him then for the rest of us...

Can you really not read? Right from the op question there was never any mention of packet loss, simply stabilizing ping (to an average level in this case). You then keep jumping in with all this packet loss stuff from previous games you played years ago etc. Guy had fluctuating ping, guy runs through separate server not very far away and his ping stabilizes at 120ms enough that the shots he usually hits, actually hit occasionally, the same as the rest of us. That it is...get out of here with your packet loss witch hunt and silly comments...at least read the words that are written on the forums you are responding to instead of picking out the word "ping manipulation" on the first page and going full r*****. His hit registration was clearly worse then average...else putting him at 120ms would not make things better.

Oh really, his issues were WORSE then eveyone else..??? Or by "US" did you mean just his friends..??
So his HIT REG is worse then average or worse then mine..?? I would say that it would be more then difficult to prove that, either way.

It seems like the rest of the people who have had these issues as well, come into the forums and say something about HSR and other things we see happen ingame. I was just pretty amazed that he would uninstall because of bad HIT REG that legions of other players have to deal with as well., so yeah, WOW.

I did post the other day on another thread about Hit Reg and PPCs.

Odins Fist, on 11 April 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

Some days I see most if not all my hits register and actually do damage.
Other days I watch at 300 to 400 meters as my shots land dead on and the sensor readout and the number above the target in red NOT change one percent.. Even on exposed side torsos or ct.. It's not consistent, and that's all that can be said.

I'm not saying that some days all of my shots don't register, i'm saying some days it's worse then others.
I really don't know what the reason is, haven't got any concrete answers to this.

I'm not on a witch hunt, and if you read everything, you would have seen that.

Edited by Odins Fist, 12 April 2014 - 09:53 AM.

[DocBach]

I'm living in a hotel right now as insurance rebuilds my house. The average ping is around 120 here - but the other night there was like a tour bus that stayed here and a bunch of people used the wifi so it jumped to around 500-1000 in one match. I barely took any damage and when I hit something on my screen it took a couple seconds then it registered a hit on the enemy. I got like four kills and did 1100 points of damage and had ~80% condition left.

[Wispsy]

Odins Fist, on 12 April 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

Oh really, his issues were WORSE then eveyone else..??? Or by "US" did you mean just his friends..??
So his HIT REG is worse then average or worse then mine..?? I would say that it would be more then difficult to prove that, either way.

It seems like the rest of the people who have had these issues as well, come into the forums and say something about HSR and other things we see happen ingame. I was just pretty amazed that he would uninstall because of bad HIT REG that legions of other players have to deal with as well., so yeah, WOW.

No I played with him quite a bit, almost none of his shots registered some games not just on enemies but when shooting at us too. Not all cases are exactly the same, I was not saying it just because I could, I know what bad hit registration is like, I have to deal with it all the time, I am English and sometimes my hit registration is absolutely terrible. His was way worse for whatever reason.

Edited by Wispsy, 12 April 2014 - 10:29 AM.

[AntharPrime]

Looks like the news is spreading and more and more players seem to manipulating their ping this weekend. Every game I played today has major lag with players disconnecting. Either that or there is something major going on with the MWO servers today.

I'm uploading a video to YouTube and will soon be able to link it.

Edited by AntharPrime, 12 April 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Odins Fist]

Wispsy, on 12 April 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

sometimes my hit registration is absolutely terrible.

Been there my friend, and my ping is better then average, most of the time. 30 to 70 is what it seems to be for the most part.

[AntharPrime]

Here are what all of my games are like today. Either the servers are crashing or someone is manipulating the ping.

[Eglar]

Odins Fist, on 12 April 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

-

Only the first sentence was addressed towards you, though I am glad that you took the time to read the entire post.

[Eglar]

3rdworld, on 12 April 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

I was in the camp that thought the 30-40ms difference probably wouldn't make much of an impact....but now I am not so sure. In a pug vs Ryan, I hit him 4 times in the chest....no reg, shot his diaper, no reg, finally got a shot to register on his baby arm, but only about 5 vs the 35 I shot at him, all shots taken from within 300m with a completely clean LoS. I'm not sure if it was just a terrible night for shots registering for me (PGI stated hit reg is about 80% which would make 5 no regs in a row about a .032% chance of happening), if something else was going on or if it was just the vpn, but I didn't have that issue with anyone else on his team. Nor have I ever experienced anything like that as far as 4-5 back to back direct torso hits that don't register (since the knockdown raven warping days). I understand this isn't exactly "evidence" as I don't record pug matches. I don't know much about networking, setting up my home wifi is the maximum of my experience, but I don't have that issue playing against EU players, and I have never seen anything like that before. I am assuming that you mean what you say, and your vpning is simply to get a better connection for yourself, but in that instance, I can only say that he was using a VPN (his ping at the end was just above 100), and there was significant deterioration of hit reg against him. Not intending on starting an argument or flame war, just posting my observations. This will probably come across as an attack, but it isn't meant to be one. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, that you are actually vpning to help a poor connection, which I have no issues with. And the entire ordeal to paint you guys as cheaters, I think is a bit of a stretch. Like I said, just an observation from a pug match.

Yes I get your point. However it's no conclusive result, as you already mentioned. I'd just recommend to get a VPN yourself and do some in-game science. With people saying that they have "issues-with-high-ping-hitreg" right now is spotty at best. As for a VPN provider I'd recommend Astrill if you contact their web-chat support you can ask for a 7 days free trial without giving out and CC card information. Astrill has over 50 Servers worldwide so you can route your connection to where ever you like to and try out different facets of latency.

[Amsro]

Low/Mid ping player typically, 50-100 and I don't find it to be much worse/better then 300 ping. Same gameplay as players with 20 ping.

Here is one anomaly that I snapped a screen shot of! PingWarrior!



And here is a similar match with a much lower ping.



In my experience Ping doesn't seem to effect the game much at all.

Edited by Amsro, 12 April 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Adiuvo]

AntharPrime, on 12 April 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Here are what all of my games are like today. Either the servers are crashing or someone is manipulating the ping.

Uh... dude, that looks like a problem with your connection more than anything else. Literally everyone in that video was lagging.

[Roland]

I would only tend to expect ping increases to potentially make you harder to hit via lag if you were in a fast moving light mech... At 40 ping, lights tend to take damage fairly well in my experience. At pings of 140, you could potentially start getting some screwed up hit detection.

If Ryan's in a big heavy assault mech like he used to drive, I wouldn't expect much difference at all, in ability to hit him.

[SirLANsalot]

The easiest way to catch these cheaters, is to shoot at them. They would (and do) have a macro that will cause them to lag when there getting shot at, but not when there is no combat around.

E.G. Said cheater is sniping far off from a hill in a ECM spider. His ping is the usual 100ish, nothing special there. Someone finds him and starts to shoot him. His ping spikes to 400 and he starts warping around, his shots will miss too as its a 2 way street. Once combat ends, or he gets away, his ping settles back down to 100 again.

A way to keep an eye out for this is to watch the enemy teams pings at the load-in screen. If there all sub 150ish, everything will play fine, but if you see a light running by you, and he is warping around (and your own ping is under 100), then you found a cheater. Quickly pressing TAB to see there pings, you can spot the guy spiking at 300+, if the names match up, then you found one. Anyone saying that "but I LAG when there's fighting going on" is a complete liar and should forever be banned, because if you "lag in combat" then you would be lagging regardless of whats going on-screen.
*Note: I do know that you can lag in combat if your computer isn't up to snuff to handle the game, but that doesn't cause your ping to spike, as it will stay the same, even if your FPS drops to 5.

This is nothing new but is incredibly difficult to catch and will have a lot of false positives. Best way to flat out stop it? Disallow VPN, as this is the quickest way (as its been stated in other posts) to achieve the ping spikes.

[AntharPrime]

Adiuvo, on 12 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Uh... dude, that looks like a problem with your connection more than anything else. Literally everyone in that video was lagging.

Was playing and fighting just fine up to the point it started happening and I started recording. I suspect that it was like SirLANsalot stated that someone is manipulating the ping only when they get shot at. In this case since it was a conquest map, they didn't bother shutting it off until max resources were gained. I managed to play a few matches without the lag but when it does happen it's not like a connection issue which would give me trouble from the start, this seems to happen well after initial contact with the enemy.

[WarZ]

This whole thing makes for sad implications.

I'm in the 'give them the benefit of the doubt' camp, but...

Implications.

It's a serious kick to the nuts of reputations.

[Motroid]

VPN can potentially cause higher ping fluctuations. With higher latency hopping HSR stops working. Hits on the VPN user dont't register, while everyone without VPN still gets damaged. That is cheating and happens a lot in MW:O. And ever has in every online realtime pvp game. Sad but true.