305 replies to this topic

[Screech]

Not really seeing the need for the AC2 nerf but I guess they thought people were playing too many different types of AC, this change will help remedy this and we will be confined to only 2 types of AC now.

Also looks like SRM will continue to suck. If their biggest fear is that a weapon with a 270m max range will hit a single component the weapon is doomed. I wish they would point on the doll where the Splat Cat touched them as it would begin the healing process.

[GravityDog]

The promise of Community Warfare is the reason some of us joined this game.

Just saying.

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 12 April 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

The reason I assume is that it is dealing as much as an AC5 while taking up less weight. So they shot the range a bit to compensate. I'd rather they made it 2.0 or 2.5 and out-ranged the AC5 by 100-200 meters.

It might, mathematically over time, do the same DPS - but that's not actually how this game is played.

This isn't a PvE game, where we hit giant sacks of hitpoints repeatedly.

The AC 2 needs to remain on target to do that DPS, the higher ACs can all torso twist or duck behind cover between shots etc.

Unfortunately if you solely balance by spreadsheet with no eye for actual play, you will miss the mark.

That's basically what happened here.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 12 April 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

just a thought..

ac2/5 gets dps nerfs which is fine by me though peggig back ranges would I feel have been better, and maybe easier, though this way does give more reason to gamble with uac5 more than pre nerf.

what none of this does though is make pop tarting harder, in fact because overall dps is lowered it makes it more desired.

Jump jet nerf ( sensible and was needed)
agility buffs to victors and highlanders (both claimed at the start to make pop tarting less viable, then changed to 'make them feel like assaults)
and this nerf

All have zero or very minimal effect on pop tarting, which you and a large part of the community want cut back.

What they do though is have much higher impacts on dps builds and brawlers, and in the ac nerf case gave lrm spam builds an indirect buff, which again won't effect poptart play

[Musashi Alexander]

Need to spend less time endlessly balancing weapons and ensure delivery of key content. There's no need to waste time on these adjustments to AC's. Same thing with the LRM's. These tweaks are somehow described as content when it's really just faffing about.

[Lucian Nostra]

How many online games have hit closed beta without the ability to form your own clan/guild/unit..

How many have reached open beta with the same ability missing?

How many have launched with that ability missing?

How many have progressed through two years of their life without this fundamental feature?

Just sayin Paul cause I can't think of one that made it past closed beta without it

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 12 April 2014 - 06:52 AM.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

6 Variants? ECM Royal Griffon?

Will we ever see the clans as "playable factions"?

Will the Victors nerf be lightened a bit, or will it stay to be as movable as mech 20 ton higher (and thus useless?)

Will we see guilds ingame?

Will we see less poptarting?

Edited by John McFianna, 12 April 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I considered the AC2's to be a ranged weapon ingame. They are too hot and do not do enough damage for up close and personal builds. Gutting the range on those is probably beyond a bad idea. Most of the reason they got damage is that people ignored getting hit by them until it was too late. At least cut down the insane ghost heat for them if you now have to almost brawl with them now.

And the blue on blue is still hard to read on your post. might as well have an apple IIc screen.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 12 April 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[Mylardis]

[redacted]

Jonathan Paine, on 11 April 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Wow Paul - you really don't have a great appreciation for balancing weapons, do you? The AC 2 is currently mostly a NOVELTY weapon whose only claim to life is pestering LRM's (and energy snipers) at extreme range. Landing consecutive hits in the same location (explanation: this is how we destroy mechs) is very hard with AC 2's compared to the current ruling combo of the battlefield: [...]

I lol'd.

@Topic:
When I take this thread into consideration and put it aside the Russ Bollocks NGNG podcast, it all builds up to the picture of a paid premium e-sports shooter, with premium arenas, premium mechs, premium time and premium social features.

It just doesn't point to a battletech mech sim with meaningful content like fighting for factions in an inner sphere at war with itself and the clans.

Funny that, since PGI always claims to be real fans. I don't see it yet. On the other hand, it's just me. I gave my money, so what's my opinion worth?

Edited by Egomane, 13 April 2014 - 09:33 AM.
CoC violation

[ImperialKnight]

Why is there even a need to nerf AC2s? Shows again how PGI has no idea how their game works

The game is not just about DPS. This whole thing along bringing AC2 inline makes no sense at all.

The AC2 runs HOT. The only thing it had going for it was the higher DPS. This is not even factoring in the need to expose yourself longer to get the required damage done.

If the AC2 gets a DPS and range nerf, it needs a HUGE heat buff to 0.5 or something. Unless it is PGI's plan to nerf a weapon that's not even that frequently used into oblivion. Then by all means, carry on.

[Cimarb]

Deathlike, on 11 April 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

If we made the AC20 a hypothetical "quad AC5" in firing 4 shots (5 damage each) into the target, the "current AC5" would look better, but that assumes that the AC5 WOULD NOT CHANGE... if the AC5 changed into say 2 projectiles, then it becomes a "slightly better" AC2 (more accurately, an "AC2.5") which, also assumes that the current AC2 remains the same.

In consideration, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.

I'm not sure if you are for that change or against it. I am for it, though you can see the link in my sig for a little more in-depth analysis. Basically, we should have 4-5+ versions of each CLASS of autocannon, with each class being more distinct as far as DPS, but varying as far as the implementation of that DPS (i.e. some have long bursts with short cooldowns, others have short bursts with long cooldowns, etc.)

FupDup, on 11 April 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

You would have to make it a seriously loooong burst for that to happen, and in which case that would probably be excessive.

See my above comment to Deathlike. See my DPS comparisons in the link in my sig.

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

If AC 2 is getting both a range, and a DPS nerf you need to bring the heat down.

This is already a weapon that places its damage all over the place.

UAC5s are obviously powerful, but sometimes they do nothing.

Does a 9 ton weapon with 25% chance to jam really need a DPS nerf?

Can you bring down the chance to jam?
As it is I usually end up not using UAC5s because I find "balance by frustration" to be an unsatisfactory way to design weapons in a game.

I feel the same way, and agree with all of your suggestions. UAC jam most definitely needs a better system and AC2 should have the same heat as a MG.

Texas Merc, on 11 April 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

If you are going to lower the dps on ac2 then please up the crit chance on internals. The ac2 should be a crit machine on internals.

Also, to decrease convergence please increase bullet drop on ac weapons once they are past their max total damage range.

IE ac20 max range 270 at 300 m it should have a bullet drop with a severe diminishing returns fired at a target beyond that range, not just a damage reduction.

Like I said to Ultimatum, AC2 should be like a MG in both heat and internal crit bonus. Much more sever dropoff is a good bandaid, but I really think burst-fire is a better balancing method, and you could then remove dropoff almost completely as well as all Ghost Heat.

Onlystolen, on 11 April 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

*Ting Ting Ting Tan Ting tan* Whats this? ac/2 at 1300 meters? 4 dmg fter 6-8 shots, better get to cover before this sand erodes my armor off my LT CT RT, ...

EDIT:

for clarification, if you are dumb enough to keep standing in the way current AC/2's they will kill you, but after the second ping off your torso that is usually enough to put someone back into cover. Tell me now how they are op and need to be nerfed?

I actually use AC2s for suppression fire, like they are meant to be. They supplement my AC5s, but the real benefit is keeping the enemies collective head down while we advance.

ArmyOfWon, on 12 April 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

Would you be willing to consider ACs acting as burst-fire AutoCannons? An AC2 firing 2 1-damage shots in quick succession, AC5 firing 5 1-damage shots, AC10 firing 2 5-damage shots, and AC20 firing 4 5-damage shots (or 2 10-damage shots)? This would achieve multiple things:

1. Lengthening time focused on target to apply damage

2. Spreading damage around target as a result of longer time

3. Further reducing viability of poptarts without JumpJet changes.

4. Increasing Time to Kill as a result of spread damage in general.


I would love to get your thoughts on this idea

I completely support this - see the link in my sig!

[LORD ORION]

AC2- DPS on this at long range is only a problem if you get caught in the open and get shredded. The real problem has always been relative DPS to other weapons when trading fire. Putting it to 3 DPS to see how that goes would be a start, and there is no need for a range nerf.

Something not addressed

Gauss- Please remove the charge mechanic and go with something else...

Edited by LORD ORION, 12 April 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Cimarb]

LORD ORION, on 12 April 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

AC2- DPS on this at long range is only a problem if you get caught in the open and get shredded. The real problem has always been relative DPS to other weapons when trading fire. Putting it to 3 DPS to see how that goes would be a start, and there is no need for a range nerf.

Something not addressed

Gauss- Please remove the charge mechanic and go with something else...

I like the Gauss charge, actually.

The AC2 should retain it's range advantage over other ACs, I agree, but all of them should get a reduction down to 2x (or maybe 2.5x first to see how it goes).

[Talrich]

I used all sizes of ACs with equal effectiveness (albeit in different roles), so I'm really not seeing the value in these changes. Maybe the changes are small enough that it won't cause harm, but I really don't see the benefit.

[mariomanz28]

I'm sorry I fail to understand what exactly the point of using the AC/2 over the AC/5 will be after these changes? The AC/2 will have the same DPS with more time facing the target, less range, and more heat compared to the AC/5. Why would I even want to take AC/2 after this change at all ever?

Also what effect will lowering the DPS of the AC/5 have when that's not even the point of them? 2 PPC + 2 AC/5 (I'm assuming part of this change is due to that weapon combination) is all about that "smack" not how much DPS you are doing. If anything these changes will invite even more "jump-shoot-cooldown-jump-shoot-cooldown" playing into the matches. You are basically FORCING high burst alpha building with these changes.

Guess it's time to start changing all the mechs I have with AC/2s on them and fitting them for 5s

Edited by mariomanz28, 12 April 2014 - 09:20 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

The hilarity of this entire circus is that the problem is not DPS... the problem is pinpoint single-shot alpha.

Two years later the developers (Paul) STILL do not understand this.

[East Indy]

Quote

Can you bring down the chance to jam?
As it is I usually end up not using UAC5s because I find "balance by frustration" to be an unsatisfactory way to design weapons in a game.

Cimarb, on 12 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I feel the same way, and agree with all of your suggestions. UAC jam most definitely needs a better system and AC2 should have the same heat as a MG.

One alternative might be a "progressive jam," or mechanical slowing that increases cooldown to a maximum, and ultimately requires a "clear time" to return cooldown to normal.

So, no frustrating jams; just slowing rate of fire.

Ultra AC/5
Base Cooldown	Slow Factor	Maximum Cooldown	Clear time
0.75 seconds	20% additional	~2.67 seconds	0.5 seconds plus current cooldown

If my math is right, players firing four-round bursts before holding off for about 1.7 seconds would maintain DPS of 3.43 (what the Ultra works out to currently). To factor in the proposed nerf, base cooldown would be increased to about 0.85 seconds (four-round clear time, ~1.9 seconds). [Edit, math].

Edited by East Indy, 12 April 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[YueFei]

Wouldn't it make more sense from a game-balance perspective to de-sync PPC and AC/5 by changing their projectile velocities so they are more different?

It ain't the DPS of the AC/5 that makes it amazing. It's the fact that its projectile velocity and range syncs so well with PPC. Otherwise you'd you'd see people use PPC with AC/10, same damage in 1 shot, 4 less tons invested. But you don't see that being as effective because of the difference in projectile speeds between PPC and AC/10.

I imagine if you're playing against good players who are coordinated, exposing yourself for several seconds at a time (and face-tanking everything) to use a DPS weapon just gives the enemy more time to designate you as a focus target and erase you from the game with a couple shots.

[East Indy]

YueFei, on 12 April 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Wouldn't it make more sense from a game-balance perspective to de-sync PPC and AC/5 by changing their projectile velocities so they are more different?

Maybe, but it sidesteps the fundamental issue as well as affects performance of a single weapon. Plus, since it's already been done with AC/10s and AC/20s, and optimizers will invariably look for a substitute, velocity changes could lead right back to another problematic combination (slow AC/5s, players shrug and return to 10s/20s; accelerate AC/5s and the weapon could become too powerful; accelerate PPCs, and players can more easily counteract the Gauss' charge).

[gaSyeraSS]

AC/2 will become useless. 6 Tons for 3 DPS down from 3.85... decreasing the DPS by almost 30%. there is no mech avaiable (competetive drops, I am not addressing this towards PUGs) where this weapon will make any sense after it is nerfed. Free 2 tons more, get AC5 and hf.