1126 replies to this topic

[Kyle Polulak]

Please let us know your thoughts of this Command Chair update:

Spoiler

Paul Inouye, on 14 April 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

With the upcoming Launch Module, there are still questions on whether or not we will be dealing with group sizes that are over 4 and under 12. As already mentioned in the previous design update for the Launch Module, those group sizes created a rift in how teams are balanced and having to try to determine an arbitrary number of players we would consider over powered in the public queue.

We have stated that 5-11 man teams will not be supported for the Launch Module and we are not changing that. However, it does not mean that the 5-11 man conundrum was dumped off the plate and into the trash. It meant that we do not have the resources at this moment to get the Launch Module out on time and include a special rule set for odd number 5-11 man groups. As the numbers indicated in the previous post showed, group launches, no matter what size, were always going to be a smaller subset of the overall game population.

Our design goal then became to ensure a much more even team build for the public matches and to add the private match lobby system for the competitive crowd. Even with that distinction, we added additional functionality in the private match lobby to somewhat address the needs for smaller group launches as well. It does not directly fix the issue of 5-11 man groups, but it does let them have SOME kind of option to play the way they want to play.

We have in our backburner an idea for the Group Only queue. This system will allow groups of any size match against each other. It would probably replace the current 12-man public queue. The problem areas come around the groups that are 11 in size. There will not be single player groups to fill that 12^th slot so the Lobby is now soft locked and players will not be able to launch. Some of you may suggest that allowing solo players the ability to drop into the group queue would be the solution. A solo player would have MUCH greater success at winning in the regular public match than up against teams.

This leaves us with yet more restrictions: the Grouping interface cannot allow teams of 11 players, the Match Maker cannot create groups of 11 players (5+6, 4+7, 3+8, 9+2, 5+2+4, etc). An additional problem that arises is the exact tonnage matching that happens in the public queue. We will not know what Mechs players are bringing to the lobby. The 3/3/3/3 rule still works but we cannot ask the Match Maker to match exact tonnage per weight class when players are already in a lobby.

Now that you know some of the edge cases, let’s look at what we can do, but you need to keep in mind these problem areas.

Public/Single Player Queue

• Solo players
  
• 2-4 man groups. 1 group per team as it is now.

Group Queue

• Allows 2-10 man groups.
  
• Groups can only play against other groups.
  
• No solo players.
  
• Match Maker will not make a team of 11 players
  
• Probability of longer wait times for teams to be built.
  
• Cannot incorporate exact tonnage matching like the other queues.

Private Matches

• 2-24 players by invite only.
  
• Can set game options/restrictions.
  
• Used for competitive X vs Y players

Now that you see what is planned and the edge cases surrounding implementation of a group only queue, we’re still deciding when this important feature would fit into our development schedule.



As per usual.. feedback can go here.

[Heffay]

Very nice! Good work, PGI!

[TheCaptainJZ]

I'm not really a member of this crowd, but isn't there some way to launch a game without exactly 12 players? For example, group of 10 pairs vs 2 groups of 5. MM can't find 2 groups of 2 in time so it just goes ahead with the launch? (though groups of 2 would be far more common than groups of 5 or 10)

Also, once the group queue is up, would public matches just become single players only?

[Hellen Wheels]

[TygerLily]

Maybe a group of 11 should be able to launch short. Afterall, 11 dudes on comms would probably wipe two 6-man groups and any other combination of 2 or more premades banded together every time. As far as 3/3/3/3, whatever's missing...is just missing. Again, being on comms is in fact THAT good: even being short an assault would probably not hinder the 11-man (they would probably just dock themselves a medium really...)

By the same token, if you choose the "solo pug fill-in" route, the PUG will be riding the gravy train of wins for the same reasons. But God help the solo PUG with an 11-man...our community isn't exactly known for its kindness in chat...


Or make it a 2-8 man queue, and let the groups of 4 or less be accessible to the group matches or the pug matches.

IE, 4 man launches. They will either be:
- the sole premade on their team in the pug arena
- allying with an 8-man in the premade arena
- allying with a 6-man, and 2-man in the premade arena
- allying with a 5-man, and 3-man in the premade arena
- or allying with two other 4-mans in the premade arena

Or:
IE, 3 man launches. They will either be:
- the sole premade on their team in the pug arena
- allying with an 7-man, and 2-man in the premade arena
- allying with a 6-man, and 3-man in the premade arena
- or allying with a 5-man, and 4-man in the premade arena

Or:
IE, 2 man launches. They will either be:
- the sole premade on their team in the pug arena
- allying with an 8-man, and 2-man in the premade arena
- allying with a 7-man, and 3-man in the premade arena
- allying with a 6-man, and 4-man in the premade arena
- or allying with a two five mans in the premade arena

...etc, along those lines.

EDIT: I also hope they reconsider not having two 2-mans fill in for a single 4-man in the pug arena...because reasons.

Also, this is a great point.

Abivard, on 14 April 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

Why even allow any groups in the solo queue if there is a group queue?

If you have even One group in the solo queue then it is no longer a solo queue is it?

Is that a temporary feature until the public group only queue is functional?

What would having "1-group in pugs" accomplish that having a dedicated "group queue" and a dedicated "solo queue" couldn't do??

Edited by TygerLily, 14 April 2014 - 08:41 PM.

[FupDup]

As someone who pugs for the vast majority of his games, I can say that I would try out going in the group queue and maybe even stay there (depending on how close the skill level of each team would be).

Getting away from the "steering wheel underhive" type of teammates/enemies might be refreshing (group queue players would probably on average be more experienced).

Edited by FupDup, 14 April 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Thanks for the update. Will this be a dialogue thread between you and us?

[Wintersdark]

Umm, I have to say I don't understand why you wouldn't allow solo players to join the group queue?

I would, certainly. How better to meet groups than to drop alongside them?

As to chance of winning? The Solo player's win chance is higher if anything alongside an 11 man group, not low. Put me in a match with an 11-man group against, say, two 6 man groups, and I won't shed a tear.

Failing that, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to stick with 2-10 man groups with the knowledge that wait times could be long. I doubt people would object too strenuously.

But seriously, have it disabled by default but allow solo players to join the group queue should they so desire.

[TercieI]

Wintersdark, on 14 April 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Umm, I have to say I don't understand why you wouldn't allow solo players to join the group queue?

I would, certainly. How better to meet groups than to drop alongside them?

As to chance of winning? The Solo player's win chance is higher if anything alongside an 11 man group, not low. Put me in a match with an 11-man group against, say, two 6 man groups, and I won't shed a tear.

1000 times this^.

Seriously, your reason is "you'd have a better chance in PUGs?" I'll take my chances alongside a group, thanks. At the very least, it should be a better game than the average PUG game. I know how to react to what my teammates are doing, why not make that my call? I think most players worth their salt would take this option.

Editing in unoriginal but vehement thoughts: I continue to be flummoxed by the lack of understanding of cause and effect, too. The reason it's "mostly" solo drops now is because team dropping is such a pain in the behind. If you made it easier, that 84% number (badly defined and possibly bloated as it is) would crash down. It's a team game for crying out loud. It's only high because it's so flipping hard to play in a group.

Edited by Terciel1976, 14 April 2014 - 09:47 AM.

[Hellen Wheels]

Terciel1976, on 14 April 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

1000 times this^.

Seriously, your reason is "you'd have a better chance in PUGs?" I'll take my chances alongside a group, thanks. At the very least, it should be a better game than the average PUG game. I know how to react to what my teammates are doing, why not make that our call?

I think the subtext there was, "We don't have the programming acumen to be able to fill that slot."

It was definitely a non-sequitur.

[Heffay]

Does 3/3/3/3 still apply? If you have a 10 man that only has a light and assault slot left, does that mean you're going to wait for a 2 man group with a light and assault makeup in the right Elo queue?

I didn't see anything about rewards, but may have missed that. Will you be able to earn c-bills and modify Elo in the group queue?

[Amsro]

Quote

Public/Single Player Queue

• Solo players
  
• 2-4 man groups. 1 group per team as it is now.

Group Queue

• Allows 2-10 man groups.
  
• Groups can only play against other groups.
  
• No solo players.
  
• Match Maker will not make a team of 11 players
  
• Probability of longer wait times for teams to be built.
  
• Cannot incorporate exact tonnage matching like the other queues.

Public Player Queue

• Solo players
  
• 1-12 man groups. 1 group per team as it is now. Extra spots filled by solo players. Both the teams would be of similar size +/- 2 fill the rest with solo. Tonnage Maximum for teams, as the team gets bigger the limits get tougher.

Seriously just save yourself all that headache remove the restrictions and your answer forms itself Paul. After that you can work on Community Warfare.





Make your job easier, stop overcomplicating.!

Edit; New Thread with poll! Please Vote!

Osric Lancaster, on 15 April 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Put on your futility hats ladies and gents, it's time to poll this up.

http://mwomercs.com/...odule-revision/

Spoiler

If I could get someone with a page one response post to include this it'd probably help it's visibility.

Edited by Amsro, 20 April 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Terciel1976, on 14 April 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

1000 times this^.

Seriously, your reason is "you'd have a better chance in PUGs?" I'll take my chances alongside a group, thanks. At the very least, it should be a better game than the average PUG game. I know how to react to what my teammates are doing, why not make that our call?

Absolutely. I get that a lot of PUG players get all bent out of shape about grouped players, but there are a whole lot of us WHO REALLY PREFER PLAYING ALONGSIDE GROUPS.

I can't really emphasize that enough. Please, allow us to join the group queue. Please.

Edited by Wintersdark, 14 April 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Nikolai Lubkiewicz, on 14 April 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Group Queue
Allows 2-10 man groups.
Groups can only play against other groups.
No solo players.
Match Maker will not make a team of 11 players
Probability of longer wait times for teams to be built.
Cannot incorporate exact tonnage matching like the other queues.

I think an obvious solution to this would be for the teams created to be of even numbers.
It's infinitely easier to find 1 more than it is to find 8 more to create the next team level. While this still has the potential for the "odd man out", I think it would be more desirous than "odd lance out" and the perpetual attempts to sync drop.
Plus even numbers would make it easier to create 12 than a smattering of odd numbers.

[zolop]

Wintersdark, on 14 April 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Umm, I have to say I don't understand why you wouldn't allow solo players to join the group queue?

I would, certainly. How better to meet groups than to drop alongside them?

As to chance of winning? The Solo player's win chance is higher if anything alongside an 11 man group, not low. Put me in a match with an 11-man group against, say, two 6 man groups, and I won't shed a tear.

...

But seriously, have it disabled by default but allow solo players to join the group queue should they so desire.

Agree

[Wildflame]

I only drop 1/3 of the time solo. That said, I would be very interested in having a checkbox option to join the group queue when I do drop solo.

Edit: Also, I agree with Amsro. Loosen the restrictions on large groups and let them figure it out organically. You can tweak as needed later.

Edited by Wildflame, 14 April 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[TercieI]

Hellen Wheels, on 14 April 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I think the subtext there was, "We don't have the programming acumen to be able to fill that slot."

It was definitely a non-sequitur.

I think the subtext was "Paul is responsible for a game he demonstrates more and more every time he opens his mouth that he doesn't actually play or understand." Just...GAH!

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Solo Queue - Solo Drops.

Group Queue - 2-10 or just make it fully unrestricted. No tonnage matching, no ELO matching, just straight up carnage.



Done.

Easy.

[Kaldor]

Quote

As the numbers indicated in the previous post showed, group launches, no matter what size, were always going to be a smaller subset of the overall game population.

Yeah, maybe now, after you guys crapped all over groups for the last year plus and most of the grouped players quit.... Statistics = lying with numbers....


Just make the max group size 8 and add requirement that the additional 4 players are solo?

[Felbombling]

Paul, with all due respect, who cares if the matchmaker makes a 12 v 11 match in the group only queue? They're all most likely on voice coms, anyway, so wouldn't that be 10x better than throwing groups against PuGs from the outset of this game? So what if the match ends up being one 11 man team versus a team consisting of a 4-man, 2-man and 6-man group? Perhaps you should poll the players to see how they feel about a change like that.

Good news, at any rate.